Bonus Ep 135 - "Mentorship Verses Management, Clint Pulver"

0:00 Wow. How many of you have listened to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast? I can't tell you that reaction, how much that means to us. Welcome back to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brandon. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. This new camera angle makes my arms look smaller than yours. I'm noticing that and I really appreciate it. I thought you did that on purpose. No, I don't. I didn't. And I am not happy with it. How you doing, brother? Oh my God, dude, you beat me to it. You SOB. Literally, you tricked me. Oh man. Okay. Well, you guys just caught that first time. That broke up his mojo a little bit. I know. All right.

0:40 Guys, this is first show, 2022, January. Yeah. This is the first big hit and we came out freaking swinging. I think... I mean, you guys get to decide, right? The audience decides. But I feel really fortunate because we just continue... we continue to get some really incredible people. Just building on some of the guests we've already had. I mean, Clint Pulver travels the world speaking to groups. In fact, he told us he's already booked for 2022 and they're starting to book 2023. I mean, this guy, I mean, he's hanging out with John Maxwell on his LinkedIn feed. I mean, he is definitely exploding onto the scene of leadership and culture and so forth. But his background...

1:22 It's pretty fascinating. It's phenomenal. So this guy, 10,000 employees, right? Okay. So for those of you who don't know, the undercover millennial. Do some research on it. Check it out. So Clint basically spent years, approaching five years, I want to say, on the road, meeting with organizations of all types and sizes, literally going in and working directly with downline employees and saying, what's it like to work here? It's safe. It's not filtered. It's the real... He's wearing a hoodie. He's got his hat backwards. He's wearing skate shoes. Super approachable. This is one of my people. And he's asking the hard question to find out if there's a gap between leadership's perspective on the culture inside their company versus those who are on their team.

2:10 And the data that this man collected in this exercise is mind-blowing. And it really led him to this position to teach leaders to mentor, not just to manage. Right? Like kind of a whole new framework of language. Dude, it's heavy stuff, but it's so approachable. He boils it down and makes it really bite-sized. The guy's a gifted, gifted communicator. I mean, here's some of the things to listen for in this. This is one of those episodes where you're going to want to get your notebook out. Like Brandon, I have three pages of notes from this 45-minute interview. And one of the things to listen for in this is the five C's of mentorship. I'm not going to give them to you right now, but it is so good.

2:52 And there are so many actionable moments that... that he created in this podcast. I mean, stuff you can immediately write it down and start changing your behavior as a leader. But yeah, the substance of his work really comes down to mentorship versus what we all think of as management. Yeah. And we spent a lot of time there and he's got a lot of really great stories. You know, Brent, you and I first met him. We didn't meet him. We wish we'd met him. But this was almost four or five years ago. Yeah. When we started the podcast, he was one of the people that popped on the list like, Oh, we got to someday get Clint. And so it was really... We were kind of fanboys. Oh, yeah. But the first time we met him was an Oregon Restaurant and Lodging Association.

3:34 Both of us were restoration operators. In fact, I think our company might have been a sponsor at this event. We showed up just totally ready to network and sell. And Clint was the keynote. Thank you, Marlo McCauley, for bringing him into that conference. Yeah. And we were really floored. His public speaking style incorporates this performance and music. Oh, yeah. Because he spent the first 20 or so years of his career as a professional drummer, traveling with all kinds of bands and musical acts all around the world. Huge high level. Living the dream. Yeah. Like living the dream. And he just masterfully incorporates his passion for drumming with his story and and his leadership and mentorship experience in a way that...

4:21 I cried. It was a powerful experience hearing his story on a number of levels. And we get into that during the show. He's really gifted. really gifted. Here's some of the things that just chalk up this guy's background and where he's coming from. So on America's Got Talent, which is probably something that you can actually find if you dig up, which is unbelievable. He's been in movies with guys like Jack Black, John Heater, Emmy Award winner in 2020 for storytelling and film directing. And you'll hear some of that in the way that he carries himself, the way he communicates. You're going to see that this guy is a professional.

5:01 And just in general, this guy's got a real rich experience, rich exposure to our workforce, to the truth. that our employees were willing to deliver. And man, is he using that information to equip leaders and businesses now to really change the way that they interact with their employees and the kind of culture that they create within their company. So for us, what a way to start 2022 is to have a man at the caliber that Clint is with the vision that he has for what employers can produce at their companies. We're so excited. So buckle up, get your notepads ready. This is going to be a rad Yes. Hey, Clint, man. Welcome to the show. We are so pumped to have you.

5:43 And our little industry is about to get a run for their money. This is going to be new exposure for a lot of them. And we are just jacked, man. So again, thanks for coming on and joining us today. Yeah, it's an honor. Thanks for having me on the show. Okay, man. So Chris and I have been stalking you for a while. You've got some really influential stuff that you're doing in regards to employers and their relationship to their team members. But before we start diving into that stuff, I think people need a little context. Just give us the short version of what got you started even on this trajectory and what set the stage, if you will, for you to have this bond with this employee experience or people development experience.

6:28 Yeah, so five years ago, I was a part of a mastermind group, and we were in New York City. We were meeting with other CEOs and executives and talking about their business strategy and what they've done to be successful, to grow, to scale. And one of the gentlemen that we met with on a large sporting good retail chain, and I remember I sat down, we were talking, having a conversation about strategy, and he said, you know, you've got to adapt or you're going to die. If you don't adapt in business, you're going to become irrelevant. He had this thick New York accent, so it worked perfectly. You've got to adapt or you're going to die. That's crazy. But then I asked him, I said, okay, so then what about on the management side of things? What about how you relate to people? Have you felt the need to change and adapt there? And he fired back and said, nah, nah, no need to change with people.

7:09 And I thought, huh. He felt the need to change how he did business to the demands of a market that's always changing. When it came to people, there's no need to adapt. And I thought, hmm. That just didn't sit right with me. And I remember when we're having the conversation, I looked around in his store and all of his employees were my age or younger. So I'm a millennial. That's the generation I was born in. So they're my age or Gen Z. And I thought, hmm, I wonder if they would say the same thing. I wonder if they would have the same ideology that everything's working great, there's no need to change, everything's just perfect, kind of like he had. And so I thanked the guy for his time. We had 45 minutes to kill until we needed to be to the next place. I had nothing else better to do. So after I thanked him for his time, I walked up to the first employee that I saw and I just said, hey, I'm just curious, what's it like to work here?

7:57 And mind you, I'm wearing like a backwards hat. Like I had a hoodie on, just normal street clothes. I was a customer and the employee got quiet, started to look around. It felt like an illegal drug exchange. He said, do you really want to know? And I said, yeah, I'm just curious. And he said, dude, I can't stand it here, man. Honestly, just feels like it's a job. We're all just cogs in a wheel. I don't even think my manager knows that I'm here right now. Wow. And then I asked, I said, so then why are you still working here? And he said, oh, I've already applied to three other places. As soon as I get a chance to bail, I'm gone. Long story short, I went to another employee, another, another, another. And out of the 45 minutes that I had, I interviewed six of his team members. And in those six conversations, five out of the six of those employees said they would not be working for this guy in his store in less than three and a half months.

8:43 Unbelievable. And that was the moment. That's the origin story to what began a movement for me and a research study that I've been conducting for the last five and a half years that we deemed the Undercover Millennial Program. And I have gone into 181 organizations and have interviewed over 10,000 employees undercover. 10,000? Yeah. Wow. I'll never do it again. Wow. Wow. It's been a ton of work, but man, it has been one incredible journey because we created a perspective and a research movement that's never been done before. A lot of the employee retention stuff is survey based or it's a unique thing because again, the perception of leadership versus the reality of the employee experience is usually night and day different.

9:28 Yeah. Because there's no incentive for employees to speak their truth to the leader. Right. Right. So why would they do that? Instead, they just leave three months later, and then it leaves the leaders sitting there scratching their head going, I never saw it coming. It's so hard to find good talent these days. Nobody wants to work. Where really the question is, is maybe they just don't want to work for you. Oh man, this hits. One of the things we talk about with our clients sometimes is the fact that as a leader, you can think you have the buy-in of your team, but you share a vision. Hey, this is a new course we're going to take. This is a new thing we're going to do. You think you have their buy-in because everybody's nodding their head and agreeing to what you're saying.

10:08 And yet behind the scenes, you don't necessarily have actual buy-in. You have people obeying. Correct. Two completely different things. Yep, big time. And there's that difference between compliance and how do you create an environment where people will voluntarily choose to follow you? They like themselves best because they're with you. When they look at you, they see the person that goes, okay, that's somebody that can connect me to my dreams. That's someone who's an advocate, not just the boss. Oh man, dude, you just said something that is, I have never heard this before. You said, I'm the best version of me or I'm a better me. I like myself best when I'm with you. Wow. So where does that stem from?

10:49 That perspective? You're saying this came from that data from this asking 10,000 employees or is there a natural bend in you for some of this way that you look at people or value people? Is there something behind that? I think there's a really common thread throughout a lot of my research that we found and in just my personal life with the common theme of mentorship versus management. Mentorship, mentorship, mentorship. And I would even say mentorship versus leadership because there's a difference. Usually when we talk about this stuff, you're either talking about leaders or you're talking about managers. Leadership, management. And the traditional view of leadership is you stand at the helm of the ship, you're at the front, and you're the visionary. You are a leader if people follow you. This is how we're going to get from point A to point B.

11:31 You show the vision and you take people there. Management is about making sure that there's no holes in the ship. How do we get there fast, efficiently, effectively? But mentorship, mentorship was key because mentorship is about taking care of people on the ship. Mentorship was really cool because you cannot become a mentor in someone's eyes unless that mentee invites you into their heart. You cannot become the mentor until the mentee invites you in. Mentorship has to be earned. You can't give it as a title. We give leadership titles all the time. You're the director, the supervisor, the administrator. We give management positions all the time. But mentorship was the unique thing because that is what people talked about.

12:15 When people hated their jobs, they talked about the managers. But when people loved their job, they talked about a mentor. Right? The individual that yes, they might have had a position or a title of leadership, but through the eyes of the employee, they became the mentor. And I look at my life and some of the most cherished individuals in my life, they haven't necessarily been leaders, they weren't necessarily even managers. They were mentors because they were the people that communicated my potential and my worth so well to the point that I saw it within myself. They were the people that I said, yeah, you're going to help me get somewhere. You see something in me that nobody else sees. And again, I like myself best because of that. I was the kid, you guys in school, that had a hard time sitting still.

12:58 I still have a hard time sitting still. I would tap. I would move. I had a ton of energy. Everybody saw the issue, the limitation, this inability to sit still. But I had one teacher. His name was Mr. Jensen. And he looked at me when I was young as a 10-year-old kid. And he said, listen, I'm going to sit still. You're kind of the kid that's on the list, but I've watched you. And you'll sit in class and you'll start working on an assignment with your right hand and then you'll tap with your left hand. And then you'll switch the pen. Mid-assignment, you'll start writing with your left hand and then tap with your right hand. He said, I think you're ambidextrous. And I was like, no, I'm Presbyterian. He's like... No, he's like, that's not what this means. I always joke there. But he said, can you tap your head and rub your belly?

13:39 I could do that. I just had this ability to use my limbs in an independent way. And he sat back in his chair and he said, I don't think you're a problem, kid. I just think you're a drummer. And a really common thread throughout some of the great leaders that we found in these organizations was the thread that they were incredibly skilled at creating moments in people's lives. Wow. That concept, if you can create moments, those unique situations and circumstances that are not the routine, it's not the mundane, it's significant. That's what people cherish. That's what they remember. We don't remember days. We remember moments. Yeah. And in this moment, Mr. Jensen, that old teacher, he leaned back in his desk and he opened up the top drawer and he reached inside and he took out my very first pair of drumsticks, my very first pair.

14:29 And he put them in my hands and he said, listen, I just want you to keep them in your hands as much as you can. And that was 23 years ago. And for 23 years prior to starting this research movement, I was a touring professional drummer, playing all over the world with incredible artists, all the arenas, concerts, all the things that musicians, especially a drummer, would dream of. And I look back at the foundation of how and why that happened. It was because of one person who became a mentor by creating a moment of advocacy and possibility. Unbelievable. That is what's winning right now in the employee retention space. Dude, I've watched... You have several... You have a lot of media online, obviously.

15:11 And I've watched that story of Mr. Jensen probably 25 times. And of course, Brandon and I saw you live and heard that story in person. And I cry every time. I cry every time I hear that story, that moment when he says, you're not a problem, you're a drummer. And I've thought about that. I've reflected like, why do I cry every time? I'm a grown man. And I think it's because all of us have had people speak things over us that have been condemning, minimalizing. We've all had those wounds. And I think many of us, if we're lucky, we've had a Mr. Jensen that has spoken truth and aspiration over us. This is who you are. This is what you're capable of.

15:52 I see this in you. And it literally changes the trajectory of your life. I can think of a couple people in my mind that fit that bill that were Mr. Jensen for me. Yeah, it's special. It is. It is. And unfortunately, it's harder to find. It's a rarity more than it is commonplace. But when it happened, it was exactly what you explained. Special. It's iconic. It's significant. Not just successful leadership. It's powerful. You never forget the Mr. Jensen's in your life. Why is it so uncommon then? What do you think the struggle is for leaders to transition from this KPIs, management, compliance, accountability framework to really investing in people's lives and earning the right to mentor?

16:37 for their people. I mean, if it's so rewarding... Okay. So my hypothesis is what can be hard is you don't know if you're being a Mr. Jensen to that person. You may not know that until 25 years later when you see that kid on TV drumming. Or I think part of it is such a delayed gratification to it where traditional management ride is like here and now, week after week, day after day, hold the line, toe the mark, all this... But what do you hear from leaders? What is hard for them to make that transition into more mentor-like leadership? The coolest thing about leadership and mentorship is that it matters. The hardest part is that it matters every day. Consistency is key in this.

17:18 And I think most leaders, again, there's the anomalies of those that just got put into management because you were a good employee and you wanted the pay raise and now you're in this leadership position and you don't enjoy it, but it is what it is. You'll find that as well. But generally, the hope is that we find people that actually want to care and influence and love and support people and support. motivate them and influence and inspire them. I think the hard part is remembering the impact that you can make, remembering the part of the story that you can play. But also, it's important to note in the Mr. Jensen story, he designed it. He designed the moment. And there's a formula that I have seen that when mentors have achieved that level of mentorship in someone's eyes, there was a formula that they followed.

18:04 There were certain things that they did to create a likelihood that mentorship could be achieved. Think about it. As a leader, if you could follow a systematic formula that would help you to have the characteristics of good mentorship, to at least create an environment where people could choose you, they would want to choose you. How do we do that? And it was really cool. One of the highlights of the research was what I call the five C's of mentorship. And if somebody chose somebody else as a mentor, they possessed these five C's. Number one was they were confident, they were credible. Number three is they were competent, They had the ability to create candor.

18:48 And then number five is the ability to care. So confidence, credibility, competence, candor, and care. That's the formula. If you've ever had a mentor in your life, somebody that you deemed that position, they possess those five Cs. Because that was the formula that really created this ability to go, okay, you're the person that will get me to where I need to go. You're the person that gets to the part about me. And that's the key aspect. You have to remember as a leader that everyone's asking you the question, let me know when it gets to the part about me. Yeah, I think that's huge. And sometimes we hear that and we think, well, those entitled little shining stars in my life. And I would say it's not so much about entitlement as it is about good business and bringing humanity back into the workplace because too many organizations are learning how to do that right now.

19:38 And if you want to be the stick in the mud, if you want to be the person that's like, ah, it's my way or the highway, this is the way I've always done it, then have fun being a solo entrepreneur. Yeah. Or be okay with the revolving door of turnover that's costing your company thousands of dollars every time somebody leaves. Right. Or even worse if they mentally check out and stay. And hang. Right, right. So when I read through this list, confident, credible, competent, create confidence, I candor and be able to care. What I hear is a very mature person. So one of the things that we come up against consistently, and I fail in my own ways a lot of times, is just getting caught up in my own ego. So it's like, instead of walking into the room with a level of confidence, it ends up becoming something totally different.

20:25 So I'm starting to face imposter syndrome. I get It makes it difficult for me to do these things. So here's the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear this is like, man, we've got to be hiring leaders in our organizations almost from a different playbook. What used to be promote the person with the experience, promote the person that did this for XYZ years. It's like, yeah, that would be icing on the cake. But what we need is someone that can come in and express these things. Correct. So with what you've been doing, your research, all this interaction with key leaders... And guys, if you don't know this, we're talking about companies like AT&T, Keller Williams, Hewlett Packard.

21:11 This is not the local grocery store. These are very big companies that you were sharing these experiences with. What were you learning about the way that they had to prioritize who they hired and why they hired them? Yeah, totally. I think the biggest thing right now, especially as we've changed in the dynamic with COVID-19, I mean, you could throw a stone and find a business or a local place that's just dying to hire people and try to find good talent. And right now we have to consider that dynamic because a lot of employers are thinking, okay, do you have lungs? Do you breathe? Will you show up tomorrow? And if that's the case, you're hired. We need people. Yeah. And I think that the big thing is really, instead of focusing on hiring, how do you keep the people that you actually have?

21:57 Most, we've had 60% of all employees were currently looking for a new job at the time that I interviewed them undercover. 60%? 60% were open to the idea of, yeah, if somebody came and offered me more money, or if there was another opportunity today, I'd bounce. That's crazy. And I would dare say, we've done research during the pandemic. I don't have enough research to say a full concrete hard percentage, but I would say it's over 60% that are willing to leave. Because now the dynamics change. For the first time really ever, people are considering the reality of, I could live in Colorado, and work in New York City three days a week whenever I want and make three times as much.

22:39 Like that's the dynamic. It's real. People are remembering what they remember, how they were treated during the chaos. I saw some pretty horrific things that leaders did in 2020. I also saw some beautiful things that leaders did and are continuing to do through this difficult time. But regardless, it disrupted a lot and it put people out of the routine. It took people out of the, this is what I'm doing. You're in this job. You got the benefits. You stay here. Be glad you've got a job to where now, my gosh, I could literally go anywhere. Probably get a good pay increase, better schedule, better benefits. And now it's like, okay, let's zone in on how do we keep people? How do you keep the people that you have? I think that's the number one dynamic.

23:21 And then let's focus on hiring and bringing other people back. So there's got to be a real focus on equipping and teaching leadership roles to be able to do this. It takes a different perspective. So if I'm in a key leadership position, let's say CEO or whatever C-suite position, or I own the business... I need to be thinking about leadership in my organization from a completely different set of eyes and then saying, okay, what do I need to do? What things do I need to bring into the organization? Additional training, oversight, equipping to make sure I've got one, two, five leaders that can create this kind of environment within my company, right?

24:01 What are you seeing people do? What are some of the things that you're working with companies, for instance, to do to help equip their leaders for this advanced skillset? One thing that I think that's really great is if you have certain specific leaders, managers, superintendents, supervisors, whatever you want to call them, I would evaluate them. I'd ask their employees on a scale of one to 10, how confident do you feel like your leader is? How credible do you feel like they are? Do you feel like your leader's competent? On a scale of one to 10, where would you evaluate them? How much trust do you feel like you can have honest conversations with your leader? Scale of one to 10. On a scale of one to 10, how much do you feel like your leader cares for you? Go through the five C's of mentorship and start there.

24:41 Because if your employees don't view the leaders as mentors, that's problem number one. Okay? Because again, leadership is the number one reason why people stay. It's the number one reason why people go. The second reason is because of the perception gap that we create. You even will find this sometimes in mentorship. Good mentors, they don't always know what the heart and mind and the feelings of the mentee is because, again, there's that perception gap between leadership versus an employee workforce. One thing I've always said is, and we train leaders on this all the time, that mentality of if you feed a man a fish, then you feed him for a day. You've probably heard that before. Oh, yeah. But if you can teach him how to fish, then you feed him for a lifetime.

25:22 Every time I hear that story, I think, who said the guy wanted a fish? Maybe he wants a piece of chicken, right? The point is, I don't think leaders take enough time to really evaluate the wants and needs of their people. They look at the employee retention space as a systematic one size fits all approach, because that's easy. That's more convenient. That's a system and a process that as leaders, we love to move towards, we love to work within that. Because those systems are tangible, scalable things. We love things that we can measure, things that at the end of the quarter will print out a result. but it's the moments, right?

26:03 It's the significant stuff. It is the intangible things that employees talked about. I never had an employee, and all the 10,000 interviews that I conducted, when I would walk up to an employee and say, hey, what's it like to work here? None of them ever said, you know, I just, the reason I stay here is because our company's just so good at time management. I mean, I just, I'll never leave. Or my boss, he runs the best meetings. I mean, so productive. That's what I see. Nobody ever says that. They talk about the moments where that mentor, that manager got to the part about them. So I digress. The point is that I'm trying to make is I would challenge every leader right now to think of two rockstar employees in your organization. Who are the two people that if they left tomorrow, it would put you in a hard spot?

26:45 Create a moment with those two individuals. Sit down with them. You could go to lunch. You could do it over a Zoom call. You could go on a walk, whatever. Start with vocal praise. Sit down with them. Create an environment of safety and an environment of advocacy. Let that employee know how much they mean to you, how much they've done in the organization, why they are an intricate part of your vision. And then ask them these three questions. Number one, what can I do to keep you here? Question number two, what is getting in the way of your success at work? And question number three, what can I do to help you get there?

27:28 So, so rudimentary, so simple, but yet 99.9% of all employees in the workforce are never asked those three questions. And the times when they are asked those questions is usually in the exit interview. When the employee's already like peaced out, what can we do to keep you here? Can we change your mind? Can we pay you a little more? Like, what do you need? And then it dawns on the HR director or the manager that I should have asked these questions six months ago. Liftify.com forward slash bloodlight. You've heard Brandon and I talk a bunch of times about the importance of Google reviews. Maybe you even heard our episode with Zach Garrett, the CEO and founder.

28:10 Recency, consistency, two of the most important things when it comes to maximizing the benefit from your Google reviews. Why not use an outside partner? Liftify is targeting 20 to 25% conversion, right? So if you do a thousand jobs a year, you ought to be adding right now, 200 to 250 reviews a year, every single year. If you're not doing that, you owe it to yourself to get a free demo from liftify.com. See their system, see how it works, see how affordable it is. I promise you, you'll thank us. Liftify.com forward slash bloodlight. Thank you. You know, we spend a lot of money and a lot of attention trying to get that first call. And one of the things that we do once it happens is sometimes we leave it to chance, right?

28:52 Who picks up the phone? How do they respond? How do they walk that client into a relationship with us? Well, one of the benefits of partnering with a team like AnswerForce.com is we can systemize that. We can make it more consistent. We can also have backup for when our teams need that help, right? Somebody goes on vacation, somebody's out sick. You know, we get a storm surge, we get cat event. All sorts of things can have an impact on how we receive that client. But the most important thing is they need to know that they've chosen the right team. And so AnswerForce.com can support you, be a bolt-on partner to help you consistently produce an awesome onboarding experience with that first call with your client. So AnswerForce.com forward slash answerforce.com.

29:33 blood light. That's great. CNR Magazine, we're friends with all the folks at CNR. Michelle and her team, they do a great job of keeping their ear to the ground and reporting all the important information from our industry, right? You want to stay up on all the M&A activity and what the latest best practices are for selling your company successfully, right? She's got that great articles about all the four quadrants of our business, right? CNR is constantly pushing out great material and leveraging great writers and subject matter experts in our industry. It is the water cooler of our industry. So if you're not subscribed, go to cnrmagazine.com. Follow them on LinkedIn. Follow Michelle on LinkedIn. Trust us. If you're trying to stay on top of everything happening in the industry, your best destination is cnrmagazine.com.

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31:02 So Actionable Insights, get insights.org forward slash floodlight and take a look at what the Actionable Insights Exactimate profile could be doing for you and your team. I want to double click on something you said there because you talked about creating a safe environment or a safe container for that conversation. And I couldn't tell if you meant by opening with praise. Does that set the container? Because where this went for me was, what about the managers or leaders that are listening to this and they're having a bit of a come to Jesus moment? They're like, okay, I can see some of this old school approach eroding my actual leadership. And they're buying into what you're saying. How does a leader create a moment like that?

31:44 And how do they hit reset with that employee and establish some trust? How do you create a safe container when there hasn't been a safe container previously? Yeah, and that's difficult because, again, no significant loyalty will ever happen without significant connection, and that takes time. You've got to make the deposits of trust before you can make the withdrawals. And too many leaders are making so many withdrawals and they've made no deposits of trust. But I think if you're the leader that we talk about four types of managers that we found in our research, one's called a controller. They're really high on standards, low on connection. This is the manager that's like command and control my way to the highway.

32:26 Do your job. I show you that I love you because I give you a paycheck. If you're that manager, it's going to take time for you because all of a sudden if you flip the script and you're like, hey, what can I do to keep you here? people are going to be like, who are you? And what have you done with Fred for the last 20 years? Right, what gives, yeah. So it takes time. But the hope is, is that, again, it takes consistency. And I'm always so, it's so hard to give like this one size fits all approach because every situation is different. Sure. The hope is that you can sit down with an individual that you admire, a person that's key within your organization, and just do your best to create an environment where you can step out of boss mode and step into advocacy mode.

33:09 We've got to create that because when an employee feels that, when they see that, then that gives you the window into what matters to them. They will actually share that with you. They'll do it in an honest way because that's the whole reason I have a job. Yeah. is because the leaders have stayed in this management boss position and there's no incentive for someone to speak their truth. So that's why I always, it's key part of the status interview is to create the vocal praise. To sit down and say, listen, this is not a performance review. I'm not here to tell you what you need to be doing better. I'm trying to be better for you. I'm trying to create a moment here where I can get to the part about you. And if you're willing to help me, I promise you that I will do my best to do that for you.

33:53 Even those simple words, now will they maybe be 100% honest? Probably not. But at least you're trying. Most managers, the honest truth is they're afraid to ask those questions because they're afraid to hear the answers. Yeah. And I can see that huge, especially if it's a team that's making some kind of huge transition in the way that they've led or managed their business. It's like, I kind of don't want to know how bad the skeletons are in the closet, right? It's a bit demoralizing when you're taking on a new initiative, at least potentially. Yeah. Big time. And here's the thing is, if you ask those questions and what if they come to you and they're like, well, yeah, I want a 20% increase in pay. Give me a big corner office. I need some ski passes. Put some Cheetos in the break room. Ping pong tables.

34:33 Whatever it is that they ask for. If you can't deliver on what it is that they're wanting, Okay, you open up that closet, we open up Pandora's box, and there's a lot of things that you can't accomplish. Then look for variables. Look for something else. Let's have a dialogue on it. Let's at least talk about it. And if in the end you can't find a win-win agreement, then my goodness, at least you asked. Mm-hmm. at least you asked. And again, it's worth going down because again, how do we create trust? How do we create this organization where people actually feel seen, heard, and understood if we're not willing to take the time to see, feel, and understand them? And that's where this status interview is so key. It's not fun. It's not always pleasant.

35:13 It's a process. It takes extra work. But it's the same thing that you ask of your employees. So take a minute and give a little bit of that back to them in the way that gets to the part about them and the investment that... of that, I have seen tenfold, time and time again, has always paid off. It gives us a view into their hearts and minds and allows us to be better for them. It's key. You know, one thing that kind of comes to my mind as I'm processing through some of this Clint is this idea that, for some reason, people will begin to feel like then they don't have the same level of accountability potentially as they did before this mentor relationship was developed. And I'm sure that's come up in your interactions with key leaders and stuff.

35:57 What do you say to them in terms of that person that's more naturally wired in that command and control environment? To them, anything outside of that, it's loose in control. What kind of advice do you give them in terms of the value statement with making this push, with making this change? And are you able to tell them what happens in terms of accountability? What's the impact on accountability within the organization? Yeah, big time. So when we talk about the four types of managers, there's two variables that dictate the results of what those managers create. The first variable is standards within an organization. The second variable is connection.

36:38 So the standards piece would be the accountability. Like we got to show up on time. I need you to do your job. Safety is a big deal. I need you to grow. I need you to hit these numbers. This is the vision of the company. All of the tangible things that we focus on in business. The connection piece, though, is that intangible side. The empathy, the getting to the part about them, the realization that they've got a life outside of work. So those are the two variables. So the first manager that we call the removed manager, so they're low on standards, low on connection, low on both. So that created disengagement from the employee workforce. My manager could care less about the vision and the company goals. Like, I'm just disengaged from my work. Manager doesn't care.

37:18 The second manager is the buddy manager. They're low on standards, but high on connection. This dynamic that you hinted towards. This creates entitlement. This is where you're really high on connection. You want to be liked. You want to love everybody. You want everybody to love you. This is the manager that will go and play Xbox on the weekends with the whole team. And then Monday morning, they come in. They're like, hey, you know, we got to do better. And everyone's like, dude, I just saved you in Call of Duty over the weekend. And now you're the boss. So it creates entitlement. The third one is the controller, high standards, low connection, my way or the highway. That creates rebellion. It never lasts. It did get results for a time, but the results never lasted. But the fourth manager is the mentor manager.

38:02 And this individual is high on accountability, high on standards, but they are equally high on their ability to connect. That's the key formula. We cannot not have standards. We cannot not have accountability. But again, the connection piece starts first. No significant loyalty ever happens without significant connection. When you make the deposits of trust through a growth development plan, status interview, moments, connection, time, all of the intangible, lovey-dovey, feely things that we talk about within leadership, when those are there, then we can get to the part about accountability. But sometimes we flip that. There's so many managers, they have this, I call it the fireplace mentality.

38:45 They look at employees and they're like, give me heat, then I'll give you wood. Give me the heat, give me the results. Could you imagine standing in front of a fireplace saying that? It doesn't work. The connection piece has to be there. Because here's the deal. If you want to have, if you have that old mentality of just do your thing, it's my way or the highway, I'll fire you next week. They will go and grow somewhere else. They will go and feel appreciated somewhere else. Long gone are the days of like, well, just be glad you have a job. Put your head down, go to work, smile. Tomorrow's going to be worse. That mentality is dead. It is not working. But when we get to the part about them first, then again, the accountability, the standards piece, that becomes relevant. That becomes effective. That becomes lasting because you reached advocacy first, not just being the boss.

39:29 Dude, I love that. Yeah. One of the things I keep chewing on as you're saying this is we've got to be aware too that the age group, the leaders that are coming into our businesses, organizations, they're in our age frame. These young leaders that are coming up into the ranks right now, they're Probably whether they've been in environments where this has been mirrored for them and they actually had the opportunity to experience or not is a question mark. But this need for it, this natural wiring and having this expectation that it can be better. My work environment can have value other than taking a paycheck home on Friday. And so I think there's some encouragement here for people.

40:11 We represent an industry that's all service-based. It's very blue collar. And I think that in the past, it's all been driven by the machismo. And it's like, the worse it sucks, the better the job is, the worse the experience. Like, yeah, rah, rah. But then now we're seeing these young leaders coming up. And in the back of their mind, it's like they want a mentor to own that business. They want an environment to be approved, if you will, that gives them the freedom to lead more in this way because they're naturally wired more so to do it. That's an assumption, I should say. Is that ring true in what you're seeing as far as these developing leadership ranks? Or am I totally off base there? No, I think you're spot on.

40:52 I think, again, we've got to spark the possibility for people. Do we create a better story? Do you give the opportunity for someone to write a better story because they work for you? It's really two things. Do you communicate potential for an employee? And then do you communicate worth? Oh, man, that is huge. Two foundational pieces. Like, can I grow here? Can I see a future here? Does every employee have a growth development plan in your organization? Not on how they're going to grow into your mission statement, not how they're going to grow into your quarterly projections. No, something that gets to the part about them. And what is that for them? And then what are you going to do as a leader to help them get there? What are they going to do as the employee to get there?

41:35 And then do you have a follow-up date to that? Like, it's a simple, like, that's not rocket science. But again, it's something that we just overlook. Mm-hmm. pause, press pause as a leader and take 20 minutes and sit down with an employee and say, where do you want to be in this organization? What do you want to become? Because I need you to know that I'm on board for what that looks like for you. I'm on board to help. I'm on board to have a conversation because I need to keep you here. I want to keep you here. How do I make the story better? That's mentorship. Every great story has one. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Luke Skywalker. Rocky and Mick. Katniss Everdeen and Hamish.

42:15 Frodo and Gandalf, right? That's the mentality. That's the role we need to stand in. And then that second piece, that worth piece, is recognition. Like seeing people for the good that they do. and consistently rewarding them in an individual way that matters to them. We found that there was some really key elements in how people wanted to be recognized. The crazy part is vocal praise was number one. Really? The that a boys, that a girl. I saw what you did last week, keep it up. Could you imagine what a simple thing you could do and how effective it would be if you systemized your recognition as a leader? What if you put in your phone every Wednesday a reminder to take two minutes to take two minutes and send an email out to an employee or to a manager and just say, I just need to let you know how much you mean to us.

43:01 I need to thank you for what you did last week. Everything you're doing in the meetings and what I'm hearing from your team, it's just incredible. Keep it up. It literally costs you $0 to do that. In my undercover research, it was one of the most overlying, important, relevant things that people talked about. I'll never forget when Bob or Susie wrote me a note and just took the time to handwrite a note, put it into my locker, sent me an email, just raving about who I am and what I've done. I remember an employee she talked about, her manager sent, he got from the HR director, the people that referred the employee to the organization, and then also was able to find out the address for the employee's parents.

43:41 sent an email to past employers thanking them for what they had taught that employee, thanking them for referring that employee, and then also sent a handwritten note to mom and dad, thanking them for raising such a great daughter and a great human that has played such a role in their organization. Unbelievable. Like the investment, the buy-in that that leader got from that individual by taking 10 minutes to create a moment of recognition. These are just little examples that I heard time and time and time and time again that again helps to represent the story that you're trying to create. I really appreciate the fact that the way that you simplified that for us, because I think so many leaders are hearing what you're saying.

44:28 And it's not that they're in disagreement. It's not that they don't want to lead that way in many cases. It's just this, they're so intimidated, right? It's the paralysis or the analysis paralysis thing. It's like, well, we don't have this yet. I don't even know where to start. And so by you just giving that really amazing example of... Dude, put a reminder in your phone. It's very utilitarian. It's okay. It doesn't need to be bigger than that. Start with put a reminder in your phone and one to two times a week, just consistently send that email. Do something to say, Thank you. And I see you. I hear you. You have value. Gosh, what an awesome place to start.

45:09 Totally. Just an awesome place. Well, you look at your lives and what you really remember. Like if I were to ask you, the both of you, tell me who the last three NFL MVPs were. Or could you tell me who the last two Academy Award winners were for best actor? Who were the last two Miss Americas? Like nobody knows. Yeah. Nobody knows. I ask the question all the time. Nobody knows unless you Google it. You might know one or two, but most of the time nobody knows. Yeah. But watch this. If you can tell me the name of a teacher, the teacher that made the biggest difference in your life as a young person, do you remember their name? Oh man. Matt Strausser, if you're listening. Yeah. My choir director. Yeah. Boom.

45:49 Easy. Give me the name of somebody in the organization that you currently work that's made a difference in your life in the last month and a half. Yeah. Yeah. The names are there. Like you said at the very beginning was this create the moment, right? These moments. Like you know, you know when you've had one of those moments or, or even here's the even more simple version of it. When you, recognize someone in a place of authority, whether they've been giving it to them via title, you know their experience, they've been in an industry a long time, and they look at you and just say, Hey, man, like, wow, that was great. Or I really appreciate what you did here. Or they just give you that 10 or 20 seconds of focus on just you.

46:32 You know when that happens. You just recognize it internally. That bell goes off and you're like, Oh, wow, that felt awesome. Yep. It just felt awesome. I've always said there's kind of that overarching saying where a lot of people in my industry speak about, you'll be the leader that you wish you had. Be the leader you wish you had. I always change that up a little bit and say, be the mentor you were lucky enough to have. If you've had those individuals in your life, take a moment and pause and ask yourself, why were they so influential to me? Sometimes that's a great framework because sometimes it's hard to think about, well, what do I do? Or how do I become this? Or how do I connect more? How do I be this mentor that you speak of, Clint?

47:14 Well, who are the people that were that for you? And take five minutes and sit down and just write down some of the moments. some of the experiences, some of the things that they did. Maybe it was mom, maybe it's dad, maybe it's the choir director, whoever it was, write down what did they do that made them so significant in your life? Start there. I think it's a great place to start in helping you to achieve this mentorship journey in the lives of others. Be the mentor you were lucky enough to have. You know what's really cool about what you're saying right now, Clint, too, is that it's like going back to this balance of the connection and standards. I mean, when you say that, think about listeners right now.

47:56 If you evaluate that person that really had a needle-moving impact on your life, there was some accountability there, right? They said the hard stuff to you. 100%. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any progress, right? A mentor, they're a buddy. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. And so I love that. It's like, okay, guys, if we really just sit in this a little bit, it is not that foreign from our own life experience. It's just so interesting to me what we've done over the decades or longer to just create this segmentation between what we experience that creates joy and rich relationship in our civilian life.

48:37 Then we go to work and for some reason, we've just turned off all these experiences, all these real life engagements and acted as if they have no value in our place of business. I don't know how we got there, but it is quite weird to think about it in reverse. It's like, why is this that complicated? I don't know. And it really isn't. It really isn't. But that's also the part of it that excites me the most. When I teach this stuff, it's so fun to see the light bulbs switch on. And we walk out of these events and these presentations and trainings, and we've got an action list of some very simple, very practical things. But I think it is the simplicity of it that makes it more applicable. It makes it more doable.

49:18 It's also the beautiful side of it as well. So I got to wrap this up because I know you got a hard stop. And here's my question. So while it is simple, I think there's probably a lot of people listening and I'm feeling this as well. What are some disciplines? What are some disciplines that I think us as leaders can start to adopt that will help us grow towards this? I think of James Clear and his Atomic Habits, right? This idea of having an archetype that we're pointing towards, right? So give us the disciplines that when we ask ourselves, what would a mentor do? Or what would Clint Pulver do in this situation? What are some of maybe the daily disciplines or rhythms of life that leaders can put on to move towards this role of becoming a mentor?

50:01 Can you leave us with that? Yep, this is what I would leave you with. I grew up in Heber City, Utah, and it's a big wrestling community, collegiate wrestling, high school wrestling. They breed wrestlers. And my dad was my wrestling coach for a long time. State champion, great wrestler. Understood the game, knew the sport, strong, mentally quick. And every Friday night, my dad would take me to the wrestles to watch the varsity team play. we were really, really going to watch Kel Sanderson. If you don't know who Kel Sanderson is, he's literally the world's all-time greatest wrestler in the history of the sport. The dude never lost a match in high school, never lost a match in college.

50:44 When he went on to the Olympics, won a gold medal, like the all-time greatest guy. And I grew up watching him throw dudes around like ragdolls on the mat. And I remember one Friday night, I just didn't want to go. I didn't want to go. And my dad said, okay, he said, it's fine. He said, I just need to know, do you want to be a great wrestler? And I said, yeah. I said, come on, dad. Of course I want to be a great wrestler. And then he looked at me and said, the only way that that's going to happen is if you hang out at the mat. You remember that kid, you hang out by the mat. You want to be great at basketball. You got to hang out by the hoop. If you want to be great at speaking, you hang out by the mic. The analogy of who are you listening to? Because this is another thing I wrote about at the end of my book.

51:25 Great mentors were always being mentored. So you want to talk about how do we keep the main thing, the main thing? How do we keep this? You know, what's the archetype? Who's your coach? Who's your coach? Do you have a coach? We should do whatever it takes to associate with astonishing people who are living and breathing the life that we want to live. And far too often I found that managers are living in a world of toxicity where they get with other managers and it's nothing but a problem fest. It's nothing about just people complaining and talking about the discouraging journey of leadership. I also grew up on a farm and I learned that if you put a hard to catch horse in a field with an easy to catch horse, you usually end up with two hard to catch horses.

52:05 And the same thing applies to mentorship. Same thing applies to management. So do whatever it takes to hang out by the hoop, to hang out by the mat. Find somebody, find a leader. Who's the leader of leaders? Who's that mentor that you had? Work with them. Create an environment, a relationship where you can learn from them continually. A place where you could go to that individual and have candid conversations and say, this is what I'm struggling with. I've lost three employees in the last two weeks and I don't know what to do. Instead of picking up your leadership book or trying to just figure it out on your own, create a board of mentors. Create the environment that people can help expedite your success rate and de-risk the failure rate.

52:47 That's awesome. I love it. I love it. Man, your book. Okay. So before we let you go, we have to point people towards you. Because for those of you, a lot of people in our industry, this is new exposure to all things Clint. And I just want to say this, you guys, anytime that you spend following Clint's content, listening to the things that he's prioritizing and that he's saying to organizations and from the stage will have very positive impacts on you, your business, your team. You've Got a New Book. I Love It Here is the title, which in and of itself, give people enough pause to say, well, I got to learn more. So give us the synopsis on that, my friend, and then point us where.

53:29 Where do we get more Clint as a listener? Yeah. Yeah. Well, special thank you to you both. I appreciate your time, your advocacy, and you just doing a great job having me on the show. It means a lot. The book is my research for the last five and a half years condensed into the pages of this book. And there's a reason why I called it I Love It Here because that was the magic of the research. I didn't want to write another leadership book written by a leadership guru. This is a book that's written by 10,000 employees who knew when their leaders were getting it right. It's a book that's been done in a way that's unlike anything else. And I wanted to focus on solutions, not problems. And it's a solution written book. How do we get to the part about other people and create an environment that they never want to leave?

54:10 And you can check out the book on Amazon. And then also you can connect with me at clintpolver.com. And I'm also on all the social media channels. I love it. And we'll have all those links in the show notes for everybody that's listened. And then I want to do this. I do believe that that research produced content that's valuable and it's worth our time. And so I'm going to do this. First, three people... that respond to our team via email with the four types of managers, we will actually send out a copy of Clint's book so that you can have that in your war chest and use it to start making some groundbreaking changes in the way that you develop a relationship with your employees, guys.

54:52 This is the kind of stuff that if we're going to go to work... it gets fun again. For all of you leaders that are in misery right now because your team feels like it's falling apart at the foundation, this stuff changes lives and it makes it worth going to work again. Clint, dude, you're a stud. I can't wait to connect with you more. I hope we'll have a chance to. You're a busy man nowadays. But thanks again, my friend. We really appreciate you. Yeah. An absolute honor to both of you. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart, and Boots. And if you're enjoying the show, but you love this episode, please hit follow, formerly known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend.

55:33 Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.