Ep 92 - Book Club With Blue Collar Nation, "Dichotomy Of Leadership"

0:00 What's up, my dude? Well, I'm reading this book, Leadership and Self-Deception. It's rocking my world. It's provoking me. It's making me feel embarrassed. It's kind of doing all the things to me. Well, you know what? It's interesting timing. Look how you teed that up. So guys, this will be the second time, I think second show that we've done this. You're going to realize this format's a little bit different. This is actually us on the Blue Collar Nation boys. Blue Collar Nation with the Blue Collar Boys. With the Blue Collar Boys. You guys know Eric and Larry over at Super Tech University. You guys see them all around the industry, obviously, just huge contributors and supporters to Restorers. Long and short of it, though, we've been doing book club with them. And so roughly once a month or so, we dig into a book that hopefully challenges us and those who decide to join us in reading it.

0:47 And normally, they release those shows as part of the Blue Collar Nation. So that's on there as But we want to make sure that our audience, those of you that don't know those guys yet, obviously, this will give you an opportunity to learn more about them. But we want to make sure that our own organic audience has access to this as well. So this is a little bit different. You're going to hear right after this intro, Larry and their team's intro. So don't get kind of weirded out by it. It's because this is technically pointing you guys towards an episode that we recorded with our dear friends over there. Before we get going, you guys know that every episode, of course, has to be supported. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to do this. As you guys know, some really loyal and rad sponsors that we are friends with. AnswerForce.

1:28 This is kind of a newer team that we've been working with. You guys are probably starting to get used to hearing their name. But AnswerForce. So this is essentially your bolt-on partner, guys, to help you with your call intake. And instead of it being this one-size-fits-all, super generic robot that answers the phone with very little commitment to you, your business, or your clients, these guys are customizing the experience. They're ensuring that their team aligns with what you would normally do as part of your call intake, asking the right questions, the folks that are working with your team to take those calls. are used to working within our industry. And so they know the kind of clients that they're taking those calls from.

2:10 So again, super cost-effective. This is one of those scenarios where you can ramp up and you can ramp down based on your needs. There is no crazy contract where you're fixed into this spend on something you don't even know will have value for you yet. But in terms of opportunity, instead of us leaving the chance of a new lead to a phone tree or a digital platform, direction, if you will, trying to guide them to make their own internal decision. Let's just pick up the phone with a live person and give them a great onboarding experience. Right? And that's what you can do with AnswerForce. So answerforce.com forward slash floodlight. Check out some of the opportunities that they have as being a partner with us.

2:50 But most importantly, just get this tool set on deck with you and your team. It's important and it'll make a difference. Yeah, if you don't have a consistent process for your call intake, how in the world are you supposed to improve it and optimize your conversion, right? You're spending all this money to get calls. And if every time somebody calls in, sometimes it goes to your mitigation manager, sometimes it goes to one of your JFCs or your admin or AR people and they're all just winging it. Yeah. How do you troubleshoot that, right? Call intake is so important. That's right. First impression in many cases. Answerforce.com, force.fulllight. Yeah. That sounded like one of the attorney reads at the end of it. I know. Liftify. So we have a client on the East Coast. They happen to be a ServPro.

3:32 They were, still are, the number one ServPro for Google reviews. So it's kind of like, well, do they really need Liftify? They were enthusiastic. They're like, gosh, better is better. So they... We're already crushing. Let's go elite level. They're crushing. They have an internal marketing person that really owns it. And Trin, hello, does a fantastic job. And they still decided to optimize their process by using the Liftify platform. And they added over 100 reviews in July in a single month. Yeah. Haven't gotten the update for August, but I'm assuming it's just as good, if not better. They are still number one in the ServPro system and love that.

4:13 But they are rapidly growing and they're benefiting from all of those Google reviews with their organic call intake. So... Well, and here's the best part, man, is that it's not going to fluctuate. So the consistency of chasing those reviews... It's not going to fluctuate based on how busy our team is in that moment. And that's what we all face. We get busy because we depend on our own personnel to gather those reviews. We get busy, it subsides. We want more business, we pick back up and we start focusing on it. And then it subsides. Get rid of that. Don't cycle. Just make it consistent and awesome. It's just so important to put those automation tools in place when you can, right? That's right. So check it out, liftify.com forward slash floodlight. You will thank us. We get people all the time. They're like, man, that Liftify is awesome.

4:54 So we love it. It makes us look good. It makes our clients happy. It makes them more money. Everybody wins. Win, win, win. Guys, Michelle and her team, CNR Magazine, please show them the love. Like at the end of the day, show them the love. They care about our teams. They care about our industry. They care about our teams. They keep us all informed. They're always on the front edge of what's happening. They're always bringing the newest tech, the newest dialogue, the newest issues, the struggles. They're a massive resource. And really, something that we don't talk about very often is the fact that she's kind of like a master networker. Yeah. She's consistently connecting people, building that sphere of influence. What's the term? There's like a term for this. She's a mensch. I used to think that was like a... It has a little bit of a sound like it's a derogatory, but it's not.

5:36 It's like somebody who's like uber connected and respected. They've got all the connections. And she does. I mean, she scoops all the great stories. But you know what I just saw? CNR is coming out with their... I don't know if it's quarterly they're doing this, but industry update. that they do in conjunction with know-how. That's right. And it's good. There's survey data, a lot of intel about the industry, what's happening with hiring, what's happening with all the things. So that's either it's come out. I think they had a live either yesterday or today. So anyway, you want to check that out. It's valuable. Really great intel for us as leaders as we're making strategic moves in our business. We always get mixed up when the show's going to come out, whether or not it was yesterday or Tuesday. I know, right. So anyway, all right, gang, let's jump in with the Blue Collar Boys and the Blue Collar Nation podcast.

6:21 And let's dig into the dichotomy of leadership. Welcome back to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brennan. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. Man, I love this industry. Well, hello, everybody. This is Larry from the Blue Collar Nation podcast. And I'm here with my prostrated business partner, Mr. Eric Sprague, the Tech Whisperer. What's up, buddy? How are you? Did you just say I'm prostrated? Prostrated. Come on, this is a rated G show. I mean, come on now.

7:02 I should hope it's not rated G. We're in trouble. Yeah, well, sometimes. So check it out. Whoa, whoa, whoa. What the hell does that mean? The state of lying stretched out on the ground with one's face downward. Extreme physical weakness or emotional exhaustion. So I was like, you know. The conversation we had right before we hit record, I think that's very telling. Woo! Yeah, so you've had a tough week. You're real tired. So we're going to give you a hall pass at this point for the entertainment that you're providing us, which is usually me. So I'm quite pleased that it's not me this time. I'm so letting down the team today. It's not even funny. Oh, my gosh. That is the best thing ever. It's awesome. Okay, so check it out real quick. We have a sponsorship here.

7:44 And it's going to be Super Tech University. But I think Eric dubs over it every time. And if he doesn't, I'm going to say, what a killer job the prostrated tech whisperer does when he's awake and moving and making it happen. I'd rather hear Michelle Blevins than you. Yeah, well, that's what they tell me. So it's all good. I can't stop being prostrated. I just can't. That's all I'm hearing. I'm stuck there. Prostrate. There's a big difference. Okay, so anyway, check it out. We have some amazing guests on our book club this week. As everybody knows, we have Brandon and Chris, the Floodlight Guys. And they are awesome.

8:24 They have Floodly Consulting. They have a killer podcast as well. Head, Heart, and Boots. We were on it last week, as a matter of fact. I don't know if you guys put it out. You're styling the shirt today. Live. Yeah. I do love that shirt, my friend. See this? And if you stuck with our system, we'd be doing a webinar, and this would be being... I love that that shirt's kind of thin. Oh, yeah. Look at your arms. Look at what it does to your guns. That's the stuff. Stand back. Oh, yeah. That shirt's nothing but a gun show. Designed with intentionality, my friend. Yeah. How juvenile can we be? It's wonderful. I love it. I think we got more in this. It's a meathead hour on the Blue Collar Nation podcast.

9:04 So check it out. We read a book. Well, most of us did at least, called The Dichotomy of Leadership. Jack O. Willink. Why don't you tell me how we pronounce Leif Babin? Because I'm sure you're going to- Leif Babin. Leif Babin. Leif Babin. Okay, great. I knew you guys would- Be all over me for that, which is what I spend my time with you guys. He's keeping me on the straight and narrow. And when the prostrated business guy here, you guys can help me out with that. So it's very cool. We've got a team here. So I love the book. It was great. And it took... The way the format was that it took a story from war scenario that these guys are in all the time. And then he broke it down afterwards. I love how they have the meeting afterwards to go over things, which is what we should do in business.

9:49 Many times, like at the RA, I plan on, we try and stay a day later to go over details with it, which we don't always do. But to review who you meet, who you talk to and strategize, like the book does, is great. And I digress. But then it takes that lesson that he's talking about in war. Yeah. And he applies to a business sense. So that's my two cents. Jeez, wow. Well, okay. I'm going to get prostrated here. Chris, take over, man. You the man. Oh, man. First thing I want to say is, like, I've been a huge fan of Jocko Willink. Like, I remember when he was first on Joe Rogan. His career has exploded in such a short period of time. Like in a matter of five years, he's got like Jocko Industries and like 14 different businesses he runs.

10:31 And I still remember when he was first on Joe Rogan's podcast for like three and a half hours. And Joe was like, dude, you got to do a podcast. Yeah. And so I was an early listener of Jocko then. And so to be perfectly honest, I probably listened to 100 of his episodes. And of course, I've heard a lot of this kind of commentary from extreme ownership and then dichotomy of leadership just by listening to his shows. And it was great. I want to start out just saying that Jocko and I have something in common. We only have one thing in common, but we have one thing in common. Oh, I got to hear this. So what do you think it is? You both played football. Well, we might have two things in common. We're both from Maine.

11:12 Oh, that's right. His company origin. It's in J. Maine, which used to be a mill town that is completely defunct with the paper mills left. And I think the reason he put that business there is to rebuild the community. Revitalize. Wow. Where's Echelon Front based out of? Is it up there too? I think they're in San Diego. Oh, that's right. Which makes sense. Pendleton Marines. Okay, I've got it. I think they've got a lot of ex-seals. Jocko's a surfer too, I know. He's big in surfing. Oh, okay. There you go. So anyhow, I just say that because if people haven't heard of Jocko Willink, I imagine most business people have, but it's worth checking out his podcast. He does a lot of reading of military. He's actually a very intellectual, philosophical guy. Yeah.

11:52 And so a lot of his episodes are really deep in reading these military books and then kind of providing his commentary. I like it, but I got to be in the right mood for it. He and Echo Charles, man. It's fun. I'm just going to jump right to a chapter that like, for me, I really liked the story he shared. And it was just so relevant. In fact, we've had kind of an intersection with this idea with Rachel Stewart yesterday, we had Rachel on our podcast, that'll come out in a couple weeks. But we were kind of hitting on this, actually. And then when I was reviewing this, my outline, I was like, I think this is the one to talk about. So in chapter eight, in dichotomy of leadership, not extreme ownership, he talks about accountability. And my biggest takeaway, I mean, I think all of us, you just bring up the word accountability.

12:34 It's like all of us understand the importance, the value, and we understand the nuts and bolts of it. But I thought that his take, so he talks about... One of the examples he gives is going into this corporate client of his that has a sales organization that deploys some kind of, you know, as a tech organization. So there are field technicians all across a region, and they rolled out some new software for documentation, the new field software. And they were having trouble getting technicians to use it. They had all kinds of compounding issues and stuff they were seeing, profit and revenue issues, all the things. And so they bring in Echelon Front to troubleshoot and figure out their problems, right?

13:15 So Jocko takes time and he meets with all the different stakeholders. He meets with technicians. He meets with the regional manager. He meets with the sales guys. He meets with the corporate execs. And this vivid picture starts to unfold, all these different things, all these points of frustration, and it all comes back to this software. And of course, leadership is just getting frustrated. Like, God, if our techs just did what we freaking asked them to do, We've even given them bonuses for filling out their freaking digital customer forms. We've put bonuses to try to get them to do what their job is. What in the world are we doing wrong?

13:55 Well, Jaco goes out and meets with them and he finds out, well, there's problems with the software. Like it takes 15 minutes for them to complete all the customer screens that they're being asked. Meanwhile, they're getting eight, nine work orders or job assignments a day, and they're struggling just to get all of their jobs in for the day and complete all of the documentation. Sounds like a restoration company. I was just going to say. Yeah, it sounds familiar. A lot of restorers are like, holy shit, this is just for me, you know? Sorry, I just blew out the G rating there or the K rating. Jesus Christ, what a fucking asshole. Oh, God, who cares? Like an excellent show. I know, right? Anyway, so I mean, the nuts and bolts of it is he goes back to the leadership team.

14:37 It's like, look, we need to go back to the drawing board and collect more feedback from the team about what's working, what's not working from the software. And we need to make some improvements here because while you thought software was the whole solution... The reality is that the people that are actually using it are having all kinds of issues that are preventing them from doing that and the work that you're assigning them. And I just thought that is such a common problem in our business. We meet as a leadership team. We see a problem in the field or we see a problem in our admin or we see a problem on our sales team. And as a leadership team in our ivory tower, this is what creates that whole siloed thing that we have with our frontline folks.

15:18 We meet in the ivory tower, we draw on our personal experience and we're like, oh, I know what to do. We know what to do. And then we take action to solve the problem. We think we're just being really aggressive with the problem. But we don't stop long enough to do two things. And one I heard him saying in this chapter is, we didn't stop long enough to really think about the problem and also consider with our solution any unintended consequences, right? Because every solution has some consequences, right? And the other thing was, they didn't gather enough feedback and information. I think we do that all the time in our restoration businesses, right? We were just talking with Rachel Stewart about that in the software space. Same exact thing. Software is an even more pure example, right?

16:00 It's like you implement a feature or you fix a bug, not realizing that there's a whole bunch of other consequences to making that change in the code. It affects all these other things in the software. It screws up that button or it changes that database. You know what I mean? Big time. I just think in our business in particular... We're such a hair on fire business. We jump in solving problems for our people without gathering their input, without consideration for the downstream effects of that decision. And we end up spending a bunch of time, effort, and energy. I mean, God, when you're developing software for a large national company, how much money do you think they spent in this example, creating this field software?

16:43 Yeah. without input from the people who actually use it and thinking, well, this is going to be a force multiplier. It's like you're excited as a leadership team or a regional team of ops managers, whatever. You're like, oh, this is going to be so great. And then you deploy it and you're like, oh, shit. Not only did it not solve the issue we were trying to solve, but it caused more problems that now we have to go back, go through the whole development process again, gather feedback, then go back to the programmers. That happens an awful lot. Everybody invests in some great program that's going to do everything. These guys develop themselves a little bit different, but you get so much pushback from the team that it's a bit of a problem. So there's a huge learning curve that goes along with it.

17:25 And there's a lot of nuance. Eric, go ahead. I was going to say, you know, I mean, in conjunction with what Chris was saying about this, we live this in our restoration company. We started out having very few systems and it's all word of mouth. And we're trying to just put out fires all day and keep the business going. And then we get to the size and like, OK, we got to build systems. But by the time I'm building the systems, I haven't been in the field like three years. Right. So. No joke. And things have changed and my memory sucks. And I start building these systems and trying to push them on the field technicians, the admin people without any buy-in because I used to do this, I know. And next thing you know, they're just refusing to do it or they're doing it incorrectly or whatever. So I learned quickly because I had to.

18:07 It was like, okay, let's have a little meeting with like key people. I'm going to go back to the drawing board. I'm going to rebuild this system. We're going to sit down with everybody and say, go stress test this system for a few weeks or a month and come back with your feedback. And then we'll come up with a best practice. It feels slower at the beginning. But once we started doing that, I mean, Brandon, you said it, what is it, uh, Say it again. Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast. Exactly. Right. It was that because with us trying to jam that down their throat, just like you were saying, Chris, with this company, like you're going to spend more time because they're going to buck you the whole way. Oh, yeah. Might as well get buying now. A lot of this, Eric, we learned from Gerber, and you did this.

18:49 You're not saying that you gave it to them to come up with a process. I did that too. Yeah, so you give it to the team, figure out the system, and then come back to me and let's see how we can implement. And that's where he said, start with them. I mean, this doesn't apply exactly. It's just going on a tangent from the book. To be a good leader, you have to allow people to have input. People will buy into a world that they get to help to create. Right. If you give them your input, why would they buy in? The same thing applies. You could extend that out to training or any of those things. We're afraid to spend the money to onboard someone and put them in an intentional training program for three weeks or whatever the number is because we want them producing money for the spend.

19:31 Well, then we have someone on our roster that performs at 50% for six months instead of just one and done at 21 days, right? Or whatever the magic number is. The same thing applies to what you're talking about. Anybody that's onboarded a CRM platform or some kind of project management platform... Yeah, we want to grind gears, get the database set up, get the team working on it. But then we half-ass use it for two years, right? So how much cheaper would it have been to just onboard that thing in a much more systemized way? We see that with the service titan thing with many of our clients. And they're like, this is the worst, this is the worst, because they dive right into it and expect everything to work out of the gate.

20:11 It's like, no, no, no, this is gigantic. You got to take it real slow and figure out what you need to implement. And I don't know, I haven't used it exactly, but that's the theme that I've gotten out of many of our clients because we have a lot of HVAC and plumbing clients. And what you're saying is you just need to do it slower. In the long run, you'll be doing better. Look what you're saying. Hey guys, we didn't do this. We kind of jumped right into that first chapter, but should we do a flyby? Like, should we say what the hell the book's about at 30,000 feet before we keep going here? We weren't slow at all. We were fast. Brandon, we just didn't onboard this podcast correctly. I'm like, maybe we should practice what we're talking about. So Brandon, why don't you break it?

20:52 Go ahead. You've got this in your mind. Let's hear it, man. Let's do this. All right. So big picture, right? The dichotomy of leadership. It's this idea that as leaders, we have all these things that we have to keep in balance. We can't live in these extremes at one pendulum end or the other. Right. So there's two books that marry up with each other for those that are interested. There's one called Extreme Ownership. That was the first book that these two guys put out. And it really was Eric loves that book, actually. And so what happened was with that is they set the tone for. It's yours. It's your bag. You got to find a way to own the outcome, right? To participate in a super proactive way, which is outstanding. And most of us as leaders, especially if we're in a transition between tech position or field position, we got to learn how to take ownership of the outcomes of this team's performance, right?

21:41 Or the book of business that we're responsible for. All right. So then they marry it with this idea of dichotomy of leadership to create the real world balance of that. Right? Right. So they really set the tone for no excuses. Pick your ass up. Take ownership of the things that you got your hands on. And now in order for you to do that over a sustained period of time and actually be a robust leader, you got to find that balance right between the two. So the thing that Chris was just talking about in that, it's he uses the term a lot. I don't know if this was the chapter aggressive, but not reckless. Right. So get in, take ownership, make something happen. We're not going to dance around whether or not we're going to adopt this software system.

22:24 But then there's a way to balance that by inviting them in the process, getting their feedback, having them contribute to the plan. So that's where that dichotomy comes, where we find that balance between the two positions. There you go. Boom. Boom. No, that's great. That's wonderful. And I think Chris probably has a really good quote. Something's telling me that go ahead. Why don't you go ahead? Because I texted it to all of you guys just now. Maybe. That's how we get a word in edgewise here. So he says, confident, but not cocky. Courageous, but not foolhardy. Competitive, but a gracious loser. Attentive to details, but not obsessed by them. Strong, but have endurance. A leader and a follower. Humble, but not passive.

23:05 Aggressive, not overbearing. Quiet, not silent. Calm, but not robotic. Logical, but not devoid of emotions. Close with the troops, but not so close that one becomes more important than another. Or more important than the good of the team. Not so close that they forget who is in charge. A good leader has nothing to prove, but everything to prove. I don't know. I just thought that. Oh, that's great. Because after reading the book, it hits on so many topics from the book. Just hearing that, don't you feel like the absolute most underprepared leader of all time? Like, how can I live up to that? No, no. I think you take things from this and you improve your capacity to lead. I mean, all of these things. And you look back on it and go, man, look what I did.

23:46 Holy smokes. That was terrible. He's not a perfect leader 100% of the time, just like anybody else. He's the first to say that. Yeah. And none of us are. We're all on this constant growth cycle to be better leaders. And I enjoyed the book a lot. My High Eye, the chapter I liked the most, if I could jump in real quick, I think it was seven. It was all about preparation, but you can't prepare and prevent everything from going wrong. A lot of the book was about preparation and being ready. Of course, in war times, these guys had to work on all the time. But there's nuance to acting in war and in business, and you have to make judgment often. And I liked how he talked about the dichotomy of going away from the plan or away from the system often and how not to.

24:34 And it was good how he was using examples in business, especially there's certain times when you're leading people. where you need to let your people think out of the box and trust them to make a judgment. And especially in restoration, because you go on site and you got a client that's kind of off the wall, or you've got a crazy situation with mold or water, or who knows how long it's there sometimes, or the ceiling's falling in. And you have to be able to empower your team to make decisions on the fly. And that was something that I personally struggled with. I would tell them to do this, this, this, and this because I'd sell the job. And they go out and something completely different would come out of it. And then I'd be like, what just happened here? I told you guys what I wanted done.

25:14 Because they were good technicians usually. Yeah, and I wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt that they knew what they were doing. I didn't have the capacity to empower at that point. So in hindsight, I was a poor leader there. And Eric's kind of laughing inside, going, yep, all the time. I didn't say anything. That situation, we had well-trained technicians with an awesome manager. Yeah, okay. He's not biased. He's not biased. But I guess my thing is I'm a high I, and sticking with systems is a challenge. And I like jumping out of the system, not look for excuses, but I see reasons why you need to jump out of the system. And Eric's at the other end, my business partner, who sticks with the system no matter what.

25:59 So there's that dichotomy of when – I mean, I'm probably 50% of the time I shouldn't be jumping out of the system, but 50% of the time, Eric should be jumping out of the system. That was a perfect dichotomy that I saw. I don't know if you guys run into stuff like that often. Oh, hell no. One of the things that I think stood out too is like you guys have heard a lot of content like around Clint Pulver, right? And he's got this real focus, this passion for accountability and connection. It's the term that he's kind of coined. And we pretty much have adopted it because we just like that. reference. I mean, Eric, from your perspective, that balancing, I feel in a lot of ways, here's a bad plug, right? I feel like in a lot of ways that super tech came from that.

26:40 You guys understood we've got to create accountability. That's a non-negotiable. Otherwise, we'll never have the business that we have to have. But then there is this work that you guys did to show the team they are valued, that they're respected. There's a connection. And I mean, the accountability, right? I mean, super tech was really born out of two things. Number one, we were having pain points. And those pain points were happening in the field. And we recognized that a lot of our team members, especially more entry-level team members, didn't have skills coming into our business that Larry and I had assumed that they would. And that the customers often assumed that they would.

27:22 So we recognized that there was a need to train all these life skills, soft skills, the other stuff. We also recognize Brandon, and this is where the leadership part came in. And look, I would love to tell you that at the beginning of it, we were thinking of this, but this was something that evolved. We recognized as we started investing in them that their engagement went up. The amount that they cared went up. They stayed longer. They did a better job. They started realizing that this is a career, not just a job. And it's amazing. We're meeting like five to 10 minutes a day, right? It's not like we're having these long, drawn-out meetings. It's amazing what five to 10 minutes a day of investment in your people would do.

28:04 And that's leadership, too. Yeah, I just want to jump on that because I think all of that ties together. And he addresses this issue of accountability that a really key part we forget about is helping our team understand the why behind the thing that we're asking them to do and how important that is. And I think back to that super tech example, that's a lot of what you're building into these soft skill trainings is you're helping them understand the why behind the processes and the procedures that... you're asking them to do in terms of the cross-selling or explaining the service to the customer, you know, all these soft components to that service interaction. Like he talks about that in chapter eight, where that was another big glaring missing component is the whole tech team was like, why in the world are we deploying the software anyways?

28:48 This is slowing us down. This is taking more time, taking us away from the client service, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. And it wasn't until Jocko explained this to the senior leadership, because the senior leadership was stuck in this mindset. Well, why should they do it? Because I told them to. And we're paying them money. We're even bonusing them to do this thing. He's like, no, that's not the same, right? Giving them a reason. like in an incentive or a penalty if they don't, that's not the same as explaining the why behind this whole initiative. Why did we invent this software? What's the purpose of it? How is it? And then not just why did we do it at corporate? Because that was the answer the guy finally got to is, well, it's going to increase our profits. It's going to make the data we're collecting more cleaner.

29:30 He's like, well, why does your technician care about that? Why should they care? Well, because they want to do a good job. The guy just didn't get it until he finally did, until Jocko unpacked it. But it's like, what's in it for them is part of what it comes down to when we try to explain the why to folks. How is this going to positively impact them, this change or this process we're asking them to do? Chris, it reminds me of the last book club we did when we talked about The Road Less Stupid. Yeah, where Keith Cunningham was talking about Patty, the lawyer that worked the front desk and how the entrance to the building never looked up to his standards. And he was just getting mad and thinking Patty needs to go. And finally, he brings her in and says, look, you know, this isn't acceptable.

30:12 And here's why. Here's what it should look like. And now I have failed you, obviously, in training you to first understand the why and now how to do it correctly, right? So what we're talking about too is a fundamental unfairness if we don't train them. You got to train them first, then hold them accountable. Yeah. Most of us want to hold people accountable, but the first thing, like we're talking about Jocko, and he talks about extreme ownership, but one of the tenets is that Everything that goes wrong is my fault somehow, right? So if that person's underperforming or Chris, in your situation, if the people aren't buying in, first thing you got to do is look in the mirror and go, what did I do wrong that they're not buying in? Yeah.

30:52 The other part of that too, that I took away with the Clint Pulver reference, that whole, how do we balance connection and accountability? I think it comes down to that why. Why? Because when we explain the why to the point where they understand it, now all of a sudden that technician or that office admin or that project manager is on the same side of the table with us. You know, as when we're just saying, we need you to do X because whatever, it's going to improve company profits. Well, that doesn't quite get them on the same side of the table as you because at the end of the day, they're not the one driving a Corvette away from the shop, right? Like, oh, we're going to make more profits for the company. Okay, well, great. That's really good to know. You're going to get another boat. But when we explain how it's impacting them and their teammates and improving the customer experience or the ultimate why behind the different things we put in place in the company, well, now all of a sudden, they're at the same table as us.

31:45 We're a circular table instead of just across from them making demands or putting expectations on them. All right, Head, Heart & Boots listeners, want to stop here just a moment and thank our underwriting sponsor, Bloodlight Consulting Group. As all of you know, right, you know, Brandon and I, this is our passion project, Head, Heart & Boots is, but it's also a way more and more that our consulting clients find us. And in effect, they interview us, right? Those of you who've been listening to the show for a while, you get to know who we are, right? What we're about. Head, Heart & Boots is valuable to you, one of the best things you can do is share it with your friends. And it's been incredible to watch just the audience grow.

32:25 And we still get text messages from many of you about shows that you really like and impacted you. So that's number one. And please keep doing that. Many of you have been huge advocates of the show. We also just want to remind you too, if you're a restoration company owner and you're interested in a partner in your growth, you want some help building out systems, developing your leadership teams. helping set up the infrastructure for you to scale and grow into the company that you're trying to build. That's what we do. That's what we do is we come alongside restoration company leaders, we help equip them, and we help support them in that growth trajectory. So if you're looking for that, go to floodlightgrp.com. Potentially, we could be a great match for each other.

33:06 Another way that we really do serve our client base and our sphere of influence is through our premier partners. We work really hard to vet those folks that we believe bring a level of value to the industry, that it can really be leveraged in a way to have a sincere positive impact on your business. We take that very seriously. The folks that we create those kind of ongoing partnerships, that's not a check-the-box kind of scenario. It's we really see strategic alignment in the value that they bring. We see value in the way that their leadership teams and their partners are developed. And we've done very sincere work of ensuring that these folks that we introduce our clients and our sphere to can actually create vetted value. So go check out floodlightgrp.com forward slash premier slash partners and see if there's some folks on there that you can connect with and begin developing some other resources to support your growth and your business.

33:58 What did you guys think of the leader and the follower dichotomy? When I went to John Maxwell's leadership training, that's one of the things they talk about. Dr. Maxwell is always talking about, you cannot be a good leader unless you are also have the ability to follow. And look, that's hard for a lot of people. People who are naturally have a lot of leadership skill or at least domineering in some way have a really hard time following people. And that's something that's taken me forever, but I can only speak for myself. I started really working on that when I came back from Maxwell with my own team, where it's like, instead of just telling them, do this, do that, do this. I was always like, give me your input. You guys are on the field.

34:39 I'm not. As I started to do that, they started to engage with me more. And now we have a relationship, a working relationship, opposed to me just saying, you do this. 100%. And everything changed because they were growing. And to be honest, they're all smarter than me. Smarter than you in the field. In the field, yeah. They were better in the field than me. So why wouldn't I be trusting their judgment, not my own? Yeah. Well, no, you got that step. And many owners or managers or supervisors haven't made that step to where they need to. listen to their team and it still works back and forth, the leader and follower dichotomy, like you're talking about, Chris. It's a big deal. You and I had similar roles in our restoration career.

35:20 How did that affect you? It's actually, it reminds me of this one project in particular that I went out and spent some time in the field. It was a night job with our team and it was a, can't use the company's name, but it was a public place, a retail location that we had to do the work at night. And there was some microbial issues at this location. And I was always like, it had been a while since I'd been out in the field. Let's put it that way. Like I had been caught up in the whole working up the chain of command and just doing what I was doing. It had been a hot minute since I'd been out working in a Tyvek suit. So anyways, I finally decided, okay, I got to get back in gear where a couple times a month, I'm going to go out in the field and just be part of the crew. Like I actually will be part of the crew. I'm not going out to be a project manager.

36:01 I'm not going out to be a super. I'm just going out to be a worker bee. And it was really eye-opening in a lot of different ways. But I will say there was this pivotal moment after that night. We did 12-ish, I think, hours throughout the night. And I just tried to keep up. I tried to not lose face and work my ass off so that they couldn't hold it over my head. But anyways, point and laugh at you. Oh my gosh, I was trashed, man. I was so beat up. But from that moment on, it literally converted my entire relationship with my staff. It was that moment you could look at it like a dot on a map and you could see again, it was like, okay, this reacquainted me with the team.

36:44 And it wasn't like anything changed really from my perspective a ton. I mean, it's always a good reminder to realize how bad sometimes the job can suck, right? But more importantly, it managed that perception for them. of, okay, I'm not completely isolated from the hard times. I still see what happens in the field. I was able to recognize their skill and compliment them and just follow them. I was a pair of hands. They told me exactly what to do, when to do it, and how to do it, and I didn't buck that system. Even if I had an opinion, unless it was something critical, I just shut your mouth and go to work. Like, let them lead you, right? It paid dividends for me big time. Chris and Larry, what about you? Same thing, same question.

37:25 Okay. That whole leader and follower thing, I had a visual of that this past weekend. And hopefully I can connect the dots here. So I went on a father-son retreat out to the woods with about, I don't know, 25 or 30 other dads and sons. Our church put it on. And one of the things was, you know, at church stuff, I don't know how acquainted you guys are with that, but you go away on a church retreat, there's usually singing, you know, they have worship nights where everybody sings gospel songs and stuff like that. And usually you've got a really polished, like worship leader or a band that's doing the music and stuff like that. Well, the pastor of our church in the weeks leading up to it made a decision to, instead of the adult kind of professional team leading all the music, He brought in the teenage boys.

38:14 They were also musicians, but not as developed. Doesn't have the time and grade and all that stuff. And allowed them to put together the song lists and the whole thing for the three-day retreat. And met with them and kind of helped them, like was supported them in that. And then they led all of the music, the music sessions. My son was one of them, so that was fun for me to see. But as I watched that, was it perfect? No. Had they ever done that before? Led a whole weekend of music stuff for a group of 20, 30, 40 people? No. But you also step back from that as a leader and you're like, holy cow, what an incredible opportunity for those 14, 15, 16-year-old guys, right?

38:56 And it was so interesting to watch them just swell under the trust that was put in them and then rise to the occasion. And I think when I read that chapter, like to me, that's a picture of what Jocko's talking about, that there's an aspect in a leader creating leaders, in a sense, choosing to follow of relinquishing control on purpose, right? Giving over control and leadership to people that you're trying to develop and grow into leaders. And it's awkward. And it doesn't necessarily create the exact outcomes that you want. Right. But it's identifying, okay, where is there room for me to allow somebody else to step up and kind of get their sea legs, right?

39:39 And start to feel what it's like to lead and get that experience. Because there is no perfect time to start leading. It's like you don't ever reach a point where you've done enough courses, you've been to enough leadership conferences to where you're, quote, ready. There's always an aspect of just stumbling through the first few times. And the guys did a great job, but I just thought, what a great picture. So to me, that was an example of that, of that pastor who presumably, he wants the whole retreat weekend to come off awesome. I mean, he has a vision of like what level of engagement and like how cool stuff is. And so for him to give that over to the guys, to these teenage kids, I think was a great example of that, you know?

40:20 Yeah. It'll probably help those guys grow, the kids, dramatically. I mean, the trust. So, I mean, there's so much communicated in that. It's a message of you've got what it takes. I trust you. And it's a statement of you're ready. And they're empowered. Taking this on. Yeah, empowerment. Well, and at that age, I mean, that's that thing, right? Like guys at that age, if we go back and look at our history, I think some of the brokenness and the greatness came from those moments where somebody did one or the other. They either told us we weren't capable or they told us we were, right? And I think as employers, we forget the honorable opportunity that we have to do that. Like we forget just because somebody on our team is 22, 23 years old.

41:01 We get it twisted if we think we don't have the potential to be a key contributor to the vision of what they establish for themselves later. Right. Like the more we can pour into that, man, we don't know. Even if it doesn't work out, you're coming. I've seen time and time again, people that didn't hang in the pocket with us. Something happened. They pulled the ripcord and left. But I've had multiple conversations with people years down the road that can still refer back to an exchange on one of our teams or with me and say that it put them off in the right trajectory, even though we didn't witness it. We didn't see it. So real quick on this before we move on, we had been doing what is now Super Tech Live in our business for a while, like let's say a year, year and a half.

41:45 And we have seen some really good growth. And I read Matthew Kelly's book, The Servant Leader. Oh, yeah. And I was trying my hardest to be a servant leader. What can I do for you? How can I make your life better? What can I do? And I remember we got to this point where we had a morning meeting. And I went around the room and I looked at the carpet clear. And I'm like, just so you know, you're clean carpet better than I ever have. Look at the mint manager. Just so you know, you're a better mint manager than I ever was. Looked at the accountant and said, you're better at doing the books than I've ever been. I'm pumping them up. But then also the part where it's like, but not passive. But I'm like, but you guys got to also recognize that if there's no me, there's no this. Yeah. I'm the one that holds this together.

42:27 Larry's the one that go gets all the money. So don't forget that either. We're a team. Right. So like we're telling them how awesome they are. But at the same time that we still are saying we're still running this joint. Right. There has to be that get that rub, that give and take. Yeah. Is necessary. It's like, yeah, you can build them up. But if you build them up and never hold some sway with them, they're not going to listen to you anymore. You're going to lose the team. That's a risk, right? It's like it's such a fine line. It really is. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. We see sometimes business owners do that when they've hired somebody that's technically really strong. And then all of a sudden you see them step back and they're no longer leading that person because somehow they've established this.

43:11 I can really only lead that person if I know about that skill set than they have. It's like, no, that's going to be a small business if that's the plan, right? That you always got to, you know, you're abdicating to that person. Yes. It's your business. You're stroking checks and you're going to abdicate? No way. There has to be a give and take. With this, like what I used to do is I'd bring the guys out and I'd have to drink at night every week. And I would invite the team often. And sometimes Eric would get upset. He goes, you can't hang out with these guys too much. And he would see the balance not work out as well. I would hang out with them more. And that was my way of leading, becoming friends with them. Very different from Eric. So he had a different relationship with the team than I had the relationship with the team.

43:53 I mean, it worked out in some ways and not other ways. It was definitely a difference in our dichotomy completely. What did you see happen from that? Like, did you get the result from that kind of scenario that you wanted? Or what was the challenges or the dark side to that? Well, the goal was to get them engaged, find out what the problem was and talk to them and just get to know them on a different level. Their personal life, who they were, what it was like at home and stuff like that and what there was going. And that helped a lot because they would come to me if there was anything going on or in that moment they would express something. But also... It would be difficult at work and say, hey, man, you got to do this. And they look at me funny like, no, no, you're my buddy.

44:33 Why are you telling me what to do? And sometimes that would get those grayed area that wasn't as helpful. But sometimes it was helpful because I would find out stuff that was going on. And I would know what's going on with their family and stuff. And they would confide things in me. And it was helpful. I would be able to lead people. in those aspects. So it just depends on the relationships. And actually having the two of us, it actually worked out quite well. Like Larry might have lost a little juice because he's too friendly with them, but he still had me on the other side, right? So there's a balance there. And then, a lot of the personal stuff that people were going through, they would go and confide in Larry because I'm more task driven.

45:14 Right. So like it worked. If there's only one person though, it's they only have one personality. I saved this. Hang on. This was the best because every time I saved, there's so many lawsuits I would expect because every time Eric would fire somebody and I'd be sitting next to him, I'd welcome to the car. I'd give him a hug. I'd cry and console with them because I cared. Yeah. and they'd feel that because it wasn't like false at all. It wasn't made up. It was so bullshit though because Larry would come in that morning and he'd be like, this is what we're going to do. You go ahead and fire him and then I'll console them in the parking lot. Oh, nice. It's the whole good cop, bad cop.

45:55 Oh my gosh, you guys. But I cared. So that was the thing because I was like, oh my gosh, you're going to have to go home and they'd have all these problems. Granted, we have to get rid of them. It was never that I said, no, we can't get rid of them. Yeah, we got to get rid of them. But hey, let's be empathetic about it. We got a few more minutes. Let's try to hit one more chapter. Okay, guys, I'm coming out of the car. Focused, but detached. Brandon, you were reading my mind. That's the one I was reading. This one's weird, right? Okay, what comes from it? No, I don't think it is. This makes total sense to me. Okay, so land the plane for us. What does that mean to you? So to me, that means that I'm not so emotionally involved in the whole thing that I can't step back and try to think logically. Okay.

46:36 I see so many of my coaching clients are so emotionally invested that they can't just step back like a chess master and detach themselves enough to go, I got to stop thinking this way. I need to make this move. I need to make this move. This person needs to move to a new position. This person, I need to move to greener pastures. But somebody in the business as a leader or military, whatever, has to be the person who's playing chess. Right. And somebody's got to be strategic to sit there. And to do that effectively, I think you do have to detach yourself enough. That doesn't mean that we're talking about the people that we were leading. I had a manager come to me and he said, hey, Eric, just so you know, like 90% thinks that you care the world for them and 10% is afraid of you, right?

47:22 Yeah. I think it was 70-30. I'm not sure. Yeah. And I think what he meant, though, was that I could detach myself from how I felt about people or whatever to try to make good moves. And, yeah, I think especially small businesses say zero. I mean, look, Larry and I work with businesses zero to three million and you guys kind of do three million and above. Right. That's our dynamic. The two companies. Yeah. So much of my work as a consultant is to get people to start detaching because they're so in it. I was always trying to get Larry to detach. Larry's a more emotional being than me. So therefore, he would take things that happen in the business really to heart, really personally.

48:06 And for Larry, if he was a solo entrepreneur and starting to build a business without somebody like me, that's a challenge to detach. So I guess my question would be, how do we detach if we're maybe not wired for that? Here, I'm assuming Chris and Larry would probably have more difficulty detaching than Brandon and I, I think. I'd say probably by default, and I might even be in the middle between all of us. I present like I'm all hardcore, but at the end of the day, I'm pretty soft and squishy on the inside. But, you know, one of the things that sticks out to me when I think about this title, the podcast often squishy on the inside. That's right. It's often squishy on the outside.

48:46 I don't know if you want to start with hard on the outside, but Larry, you can do whatever you want, my man. One of the things that comes to mind with this whole focused and detached piece is. I felt like we had to get good at telling the team that we have to make decisions that are good for the team. And that means I'm going to be placed in a position from time to time where I have to make an uncomfortable decision about this one situation and this one person, and that I'm detached enough to recognize, like you said, I'm at 30,000 feet thinking about the team, but it didn't make that experience any less impactful or any easier or anything. But it was just like... Sometimes I'd have to come out of those situations and just tell the team like, guys, this is not fun.

49:28 I don't want to do that every day. And I have a responsibility to everybody else in this room. And if I don't make decisions like that, we all suffer consequences. Right. So I think that that's I don't know. I've tried to use that to help process that. So my question would be to Chris and Larry. Have you had this issue? And if so, how did you try to deal with it? Well, I certainly have 100 percent. Well, I have sort of like these versions of me earlier in my career before I really started to understand what was going on there. And for me, I ended up at times in a really passive aggressive interaction with underperforming employees or toxic employees where I found myself trying to woo them into the fold or cajole them into...

50:14 doing the behaviors or getting the performance we needed. And then I found myself a lot of times getting really resentful and just kind of sitting on that until I finally had to pull the trigger. And then I was frustrated and upset with them that I tried so hard to help them do the right thing or help them get on board. I felt angry by the end of it. And then, of course, I felt guilty myself. And then I'd second guess, did I do everything I could for them after I cut the cord? It was just a big emotional soup circus for me for a lot of years. Do you think that hurt your ability to lead them? Oh, 100%. 100%. Because what they needed was they needed accountability. They needed me to tell them when they weren't doing well.

50:55 And instead of me being really direct and clear with my feedback of what I needed to see, what the team needed to see from them, like Brandon's reference, I'd get personally involved with why they're not doing well, why they don't seem to care. And I would personally feel offended. It must have something to do with me as their leader or their manager. So early in my career, that was just a huge. This sounds extremely familiar to me, Larry. Would you like to chat? Yes, totally. I would be what you're saying. Exactly. I would be in the moment, completely in the moment, getting all aggro and wound up in my head, knowing I shouldn't do these things. to say, okay, let's step back and let's figure this out.

51:37 And I'd be like, I remember even saying in my head, how do I handle this? I don't know what to do. Where's Eric? I need to get him in here because I'm completely ineffective right now. In hindsight, I've done pretty well in different circumstances. Yeah, I've tried to learn from these things, as we all do. But if I'm back in the moment with the team, I would expect that I would be doing a whole lot better. And I've guided people in different directions. Yeah. In theory, it works, but in practice, I haven't practiced it 100% yet. I would say the only thing that solved that for me 100%, part of that's a fundamental wiring. And it makes me really good at certain areas of the business. And it's just, I think, a huge part of my growth in that area has been recognizing that in certain circumstances...

52:21 right? It's really helpful for me to engage a Brandon or somebody else who's able to see a little bit more clearly in that situation. And either one, and Brandon, I actually do this a fair amount, either let him know what's going on inside me. And so he can coach me and help refocus me on the right follow-up behaviors, right? Or that I don't put myself in that kind of role. Right. Is often just knowing that, hey, that's not as natural for me. You know what I mean? So when that's a really critical role with the team or with a client we're working with or whatever, that we just know that about each other. And so one way or another, we try to do the same thing.

53:02 I think it's a smarter move to let the person work in their strength zone. If we have a client who's upset, we're not sending me. We're going to send Larry because Larry's way more apt to get a positive result easier than I would. Same going both directions. Leverage it. I think know thyself, right? Is the lesson. Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, gentlemen, this has been a great podcast. Killer book. Great book. Killer book. I'm glad everybody read this book and got a lot out of the specific book. Dichotomy of Leadership is awesome. So anyway, moving on from that as quick as possible. Who's picking the book real quick for next week? I don't know. Chris is up next.

53:43 He's after me. Oh my goodness. You're putting me on the spot. I didn't come prepared for that. We could do Extreme Leadership next week. I love it. I love that. You've already got us focused on the wrong thing since it's called Extreme Ownership. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. We'll do an announcement. Let's just do an announcement. Okay, that's cool. I'll come up with a good one. We'll do some social media announcements so everybody can read along. All right. All right, gentlemen. It's been a pleasure, as always. We'll see you guys. Thanks, boys. We'll see you later. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart & Boots. And if you're enjoying the show, but you love this episode, please hit follow, formerly known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend.

54:28 Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.