Ep 94 - Book Club With Blue Collar Nation, "Leadership And Self-Deception"

0:00 Christopher Nolan Nordyke. Wait, what's your middle name? Ryan. Ryan, that's right. Christopher Nolan. He did that new movie that's out about the atomic bomb or something. That really... At first, I wasn't sure if you were going to give me more input than... I don't even know what I'm talking about. Was it about the atomic bomb? Oppenheimer? Was that about the Nazi... Yeah, Oppenheimer. Oppenheimer? Yeah, that's about the atom bomb, isn't it? The invention of the nuke. Okay, there we go. So dude, this is one of our interesting episodes. This is our book club, right? So we have book club with our boys. with the boys over at the Blue Collar.

0:41 I'm not sure what Freudian happened there. Over at the Blue Collar Nation. So we get together once every 30 days or so. And we read a book together. Not in a circle. We don't hold hands. We do this individually. And then we come together at some point. But apparently, if they're our boyfriends, we might be holding hands if we were in person together. Good Lord. Eric's going to text me afterwards like, dude, what'd you do? Yeah. So anyways, we read challenging books. And then we get on the interwebs. And we chat a bit about what we ran into, how we were challenged. This was one of the more, I don't want to say contentious because it wasn't contentious, but it was just like we wrestled with this one a little bit. And differently. I noticed that with this one so far. I think this will be our third or fourth book.

1:23 And yeah, we got tangled up in it a little bit. Yeah. I think Eric in particular, just dime him out. Uh, he, uh, and he would gladly, he had a hard time with it. And it wasn't that he didn't like the book. It was just like, he had a hard time with some of the assertions, I guess, in the book. Yeah. And you know, to be perfectly candid, I didn't understand it because the whole book made perfect sense to me. But Eric, Eric is allowed, he's allowed to wrestle with things. And you and I dig about them though. And especially Eric is, he's just gonna, oh yeah, here's how it is. Like, uh, you know. And he's obviously, he's a pro. I mean, he's super professional. He's respectful, but he's just not gonna hide it either. Yeah.

2:03 He was honest about his challenges with it. And he was able to defend his corner, if you will. Yeah, no, it was great. And I think that's what's making this whole book club thing fun is that, you know, we got four personalities at the table. Yeah. And you know, the other thing too that I think people have been following us and our friendship with those guys is, you know, there are some similarities between you and Eric. And there are some similarities between me and Larry. And it just kind of makes for a fun, I don't know, like this Abbott and Costello pairing. Actually, to be perfectly honest, I just pulled that out of my ass. I don't even know who Abbott and Costello are, but I just came to my mind. Oh my God. It's a fun chat. Check it out.

2:45 we should thank our sponsors because they're the ones who empower the Head Hard Moves podcast. That's right. And is bringing this show to you. So let's start with CNR. Let's do it. CNR, I just appreciate that there is a hub, sort of a single gathering place, a water cooler, so to speak, for our industry where, you know, when I'm trying to find out the latest to what the heck's going on, all I have to do is zero in on what my last email from CNR was or go to their LinkedIn page and catch up, right? Yep. You think back over the last two or three, it feels like things have slowed down a little bit, like the whole PE thing. But gosh, you think back over the last year or so, where it's just been a fever pitch of acquisitions and mergers and all that kind of stuff, man, CNR has just kept, I feel totally up to date on all that.

3:30 Who's buying who and all that kind of stuff. But not to mention that, right? I mean, I think there's CE credits that they're pushing out. So there's free education for CNR followers. There's all kinds of great content. It really is kind of an industry hub. Yeah. for all of us. So we appreciate that. I kind of like that water cooler. Yeah, right? Yeah, it's true. Well, there you go. You can pay me later, Michelle. Trademarked. Answer Force. I'm jumping in. Okay, do that. You just get out of the way. I'm glad. Yep, yep. Answer Force. You guys know they're kind of newer to the roster. Of course, now it's been a couple months since we partnered with them. And I'll tell you what, it is interesting to begin getting a more robust picture of what they do and how they do it.

4:10 So this is a call service partner. So they are intentionally partnering with you to help control, take in and onboard those clients as a first call into the system. Something to keep in mind. I mean, there's so much to discuss about. I think the short thing is go to answerforce.com forward floodlight because you need a demo. At the end of the day, there's so much happening that a demo is well worth your time. But think of it this way, customizable. So one of the things that we've ran into in the past is one size fits all kind of scenario. And it just doesn't work that way. Our industry is unique. We are more complicated than your average service company. There's a lot of moving parts. We take calls at just ungodful times of the day.

4:50 It's a different beast and they will help create a system that your client, when they get dumped into the system, when they take a call through the partner, they're going to feel no different had they gone through your system. And that even means things like the way that you interact with your CRM. and your project management software. Now, I'm not going to go into all the detail there. Do yourself a favor. Because we don't know. But it's just customizable. Yeah. I've never seen anything else like that. Here's the other thing is the throttling. So I think another thing that we get queasy about when we're going to commit to something or try to add a partner to expand our reach or our ability to take on work, whatever, is we're just...

5:32 It's like this commitment. It's a marriage. You're going to be in it forever. There's a year of this, it's minimums, it's all the things. Reality of it is this is month to month and you can throttle or decelerate however you choose. So if we hear that a storm event's coming, well, let's ramp up. Let's make sure we've got enough time and bandwidth in the system to use them as much as we need to to take really good care of our clients. And then when that event's over, we can settle back down. Yeah, yeah. Your receptionist. Come back into alignment. Your receptionist out on maternity leave. Yeah. Or family leave. We have to be gender neutral here. That's right. Right. And or dispatch, you know, because maybe you're not a $500,000 a year business.

6:14 And you need more than reception. What are we doing, bro? Okay, guys. Answer for us. Legitimately, even though we're a couple of goofballs sometimes, they're an awesome team. They stand behind what they're doing. It's customizable. So do yourself solid. Yeah, in case it's not already obvious, our sponsors don't hand us a script and say, hey, your messages need to be on brand and compliant with these... Listen, this is our experience with these companies. And what we see, just having operated in the field, like many of you that are listening... What's relevant? You know, like what's the value prop? Yeah. It's you need redundancy. Yeah, that's right. In your call intake process, because otherwise we just, we kind of wing it.

6:58 Yeah, we want redundancy and we want consistency. And these guys are a perfect bolt-on partner to help you do both. And you leverage them as hard as you want and need to. And at times you may not want to. So it's fine. I think this is the most loosey-goosey sponsorship segment we've done. Love it. Okay, so Liftify. We're just keeping it real. That's all. Liftify.com forward slash floodlight. We've given so many really great success stories and shared the value of Liftify so many times. I start to feel like a broken record. But one of the things I'll highlight today is I love that Zach Garrett, the CEO of Liftify, even as they've grown, I mean they are- Oh yeah. They're a big operation now. In fact, I just saw on LinkedIn, he's hiring three more roles for their headquarters office in Indianapolis.

7:41 sweet. So if you're a salesperson and you're looking for an opportunity, actually, I don't even know if it's salespeople, but he's hiring three more people. Zach is still very engaged in the customer success. Like post-onboarding, he's checking in with his team. They're evaluating conversion rates. Yeah. And if a particular account is not getting the conversion that they expect, like Zach's in there. Like his team is in there troubleshooting. This isn't just a set it up like maybe some of the other platforms you've tried where it's like, what's going? Yeah, sink or swim. And no, I mean, they're proactively reaching out to customer accounts and saying, hey, something's off. Let's... let's mastermind here and dial in this conversion rate.

8:22 They're targeting 20% to 25% conversion, whereas the rest of the industry, and you who are listening to this, if you don't have Liftify, you are likely capturing less than 10%. Yeah. That's what the statistics... That would probably be pretty good. Yeah, 10%, right. So again, the math, do the math. If you do 1000 jobs a year, you should be accumulating 200 to 250 reviews a year. A year, not lifetime, but a year. And so if that's not the cadence you're on, you need to make an adjustment because it has such a profound and quick impact on the organic Google leads that you're getting. That's right. It'll make your phone ring. 100%. Yeah, there we go.

9:03 Okay, gang. So we're going to jump into this again, Blue Collar Nation. This is an episode of our book club. And let's turn to this thing. Welcome back to the Head, Heart, and Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brennan. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. Man, I love this industry. Hello, everybody. This is Larry from the Blue Collar Nation podcast. And I have a bunch of disrespectful guys here. But I've definitely got a willful business partner, Mr. Eric Sprague. What's happening, Eric?

9:43 How are you today? Willful. I am willful. That is true. I'm willfully disrespectful. We're shooting this on a Thursday midday. And I coach all day, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, like long days of Thursday. I'm usually kind of irritated and grumpy. So I'm warning everybody right now. We get this. The definition says having or showing a stubborn and determined intention to do as one wants, regardless of the consequences or effects. You know, sometimes I find these words and they're not great, but the definitions are so attractive. There's a definition. Gentlemen, the last four or five podcasts, Larry's just been killing me.

10:29 No, no, I was good at, I called him Captain. He called me the Captain yesterday. That I agree with. That might not come out for a couple weeks, so people don't know what we're talking about yet. Yeah. The cap. We'll see. All right. So we have the Floodlight guys today. Head, Heart & Boots podcast, entrepreneurs, the amazing Chris Nordyke and Brandon Reese, experts at coaching in the restoration industry, and our colleagues, peers, and benefactors of this amazing book club episode. Hello, gentlemen. How are you? Let's get a round of applause for you. Oh, what's up, Jets? Oh, it's amazing. I thought you were going to click a button and hit a sound effect.

11:10 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like audience. You know what I found out? You actually could do that, but I just never did that. I found out this week, hang on, the editor of this podcast takes out the claps every time. So if people are asking what we're talking about clapping for, it might be gone. You never can tell. I just realized that this week. I went and investigated. It's not true, actually. It's only been a couple of times. Okay. We have an inconsistent show. My wife is the editor of this podcast. Okay, all right. I was only forgot to ask you guys this. Do you normally share the video of all your shows? Or are you guys just the audience? We're hit or miss on that, man. Okay. We can.

11:50 Well, no, the reason I'm asking is because I'm really digging your new background and I don't know that people are going to see it. So over Eric's head right now in giant all caps letters, it says, nobody cares, work harder. Is that a Cam Haynes? thing where's that from hey I don't know I saw it on the internet and I was like oh it's such a great remind like part of it's for my clients right you know as we are doing our zoom calls I want them to like a setting a tone of like there's accountability and work that needs to be done right that's for all of us but to be honest it's really for me it's just a constant reminder because I'm on zooms all day and I just see it and it's like yeah I gotta dig in I gotta be better I gotta work harder I got you know it's not what it's for it's for you know it's for your inner bitch.

12:35 Totally. It's the willfulness of his personality coming out. I don't know. Call me crazy. It's, you know, it's just, I mean, it's true for all of us, right? It's no bullshit. Yeah. I mean, I don't know one person who's super successful that just kind of goes through life. Yeah. I worked two hours today. I don't know anybody. That's true. All right, speaking of hard work, we did a killer book, Leadership and Self-Deception. Chris chose this book. Thank you, Chris, so much for making me, putting me out of my comfort zone. Yeah, put myself out of that old comfort zone as well. So, Chris, are you going to lead the discussion since you chose the book? I don't know if his book's falling apart. He's been using it so much, it looks like it's going to collapse.

13:16 So I took it. I was in Cabo first. this past week and we had, yes, it looked like a great trip by the way. And I left it poolside and it's like all fucked up. But anyway, it makes it look like you read the hell out of it. Yeah, it does. I'm impressed. Yeah. Yeah. Like an old family Bible or something. I would have in the pocket on that actually. Yeah, so I'll open things up. All right, so Leadership and Self-Deception. I first read this book, gosh, pushing 10 years ago. And I remember it rattling my cage back then. I think I picked it up again about five years ago and Brandon and I were working together, operating in the industry, and it rattled my cage again. And that second time I went through it, I think the biggest impact that it had for me was kind of reframed how I was navigating my relationship with my wife.

14:04 to be perfectly honest. This idea of self-betrayal, I just found incredibly helpful. You could think about self-betrayal as like your conscience, right? Or if you're like a religious or spiritual person, maybe the Holy Spirit, right? It's this instinct inside of us to do something for another, right? And we all have these. At all times, right? And even I remember talking about it on a podcast too, because to me, it relates to integrity as well. It became so present for me, I guess, that I remember at our old office, we have a shared bathroom on the second floor with a few other tenants at this old office. And there's an overhead fan and light. And I remember shortly after I had reread this yet again, like maybe a year ago or something, I was closing up the office.

14:48 I was the last one in the building to leave. And the lights and the fan were still on in the bathroom. Now, we don't pay for utilities in this office. It's just all whatever is part of our rent. And I just had this moment. This is a totally dumb example, but just to unpack this thing. I had this moment where I realized I should walk down the hall and turn off the light and the fan in the bathroom. I'm the last one here. Otherwise, it's just going to be on all night and whatever. And so I stopped what I was doing. I just had this moment where I'm like, who cares? Whatever. And I felt myself... I caught myself. I'm like, I had this good thing that I should do. And I almost betrayed it and just walked down the hallway and walked out of the building. But I went and did it and I felt better about myself.

15:29 I just, I noticed it. I was like, I felt better that I took the 22 seconds to walk down the hall, shut off the lights in the bathroom and exit the building with all the lights off. And so just to paint a very uber simple example of this, this idea of self-betrayal, I've started applying that in so many different contexts, a lot of it with my wife. This has really been a game changer for me in my marriage. So I don't know how far we want to go down that rabbit hole, but I have just a gazillion examples. I think it's probably been the most impactful with my marriage, but there's certainly been some applications with my kids and with clients and blah, blah, blah. but that idea of self-betrayal, I just became so much more aware of that in my own life.

16:11 I'm just curious if that hooked you guys at all or what. Are you going to open with like a 30,000 foot view? Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. Let me do that. All right. So 30,000 foot view. So leadership and self-description, it's a fable. If you're somebody that reads Patrick Lencioni, right? Very similar. Very similar style. It's this story that kind of illustrates different business principles. I really like business books like this. Ken Blanchard also does some kind of fable storylines like this. And it's about Zagram Company. which is a technology company. It's fictional. And there's a new executive that's hired in, Tom. Tom's this new executive.

16:51 He comes into Zagram Company. He's in his first month at the company. He's an executive leader. And he's learning the ropes. He's learning his team. He has like, I don't know, 200 employees, I think in this example. It's a big technology company. And in the first part of this book, at his one month check-in, he's required to attend this day-long meeting with the president of Zagram. And it's kind of this famous orientation that all the senior leaders go through. And actually, in fact, a version of it, every single employee at Zagram, and I think there's several hundred employees, goes through this orientation process And that's essentially the bulk of the book is documenting this whole orientation process and then subsequent weeks or months after it.

17:36 And it's all about this idea of being in the box versus out of the box. And the book is unpacked. Chris, real quick, let's talk about what in the box versus out of the box means or looks like. So when I'm in the box as a person, as a leader in all the contexts, when I'm in the box, I am seeing others as objects, as people that do not share the same hopes, dreams, fears, and concerns that I have, but really as obstacles in my way. I see them as a vehicle, potentially, to get to where I want to go or accomplish the things I need. So I will tend to use others as a means to my end.

18:16 I also adopt a victim mentality that I am the most important person in the room and anybody sort of thwarting what I'm trying to do is just an object getting in my way or making my life hard. Now, conversely, when I'm out of the box... I see others as people just like myself, right? Equally valuable, also carrying the same dreams, ambitions, hopes, fears, anxieties that I myself have, right? I'm seeing others as equals to me, right? And of course, that completely changes the way I see them and the way I see myself as a person, as a leader in context to the others around me. That's just a very basic kind of breakdown.

18:57 That was pretty good. I approve of this message. Okay. So hopefully that kind of sets a frame. But yeah, where do we want to go from here, guys? Well, the thing was it made everybody uncomfortable because you realize when you're out of the box and the damage that you're doing. And that's where I think you struggled with and I did as well. Eric's going to have a totally different take. I'm going to be so entertained on this because he's going to apologize to me over and over, I'm sure. No, I saw it in the box time. I deal with you constantly. What are you talking about? I liked the book a lot and a fight obviously with so much of it, right? I think all the four of us did, but then there are parts of this book that I really struggled with and I'm going to be the bad guy today, I guess, and be the fly in the ointment.

19:42 But so I'll use an example of like when I'm in the box, like I think, You'd be hard pressed to find somebody who's flown as much as I have in their life. I mean, my first job, I flew internationally 25 days a month. The whole time Larry and I were at Shamrock for 12 years, I flew two days a week. I still fly a lot. So for me, air travel is war. Okay. Has anybody ever seen Up in the Air, George Clooney? Yeah. Where he's teaching the newbie, like, you don't get behind babies or old people because they slow you down at TSA and, like, you always carry on. You never, like, he had it down. Right? So anybody that's listening. And, like, I'm literally in the box from the second I arrive at the airport.

20:26 I was thinking as I was reading this, I'm like, it's me at the airport, right? And it's like, everybody's an object. Everybody's in my way. Everybody's slowing me down. I don't want the person who's the same size as me sitting next to me on the flight and making me uncomfortable for five hours, right? So that as they're coming on the plane, I just got my headphones on. I don't want to talk to anybody. Like, I'm just pissed. Okay. Yeah, no friends, no nothing. I mean, I wasn't going to put the briefcase in the middle seat like they did in the book, but I mean, I related to that. And obviously I'm not saying that's good, but at the same time, I also see it as people have different personalities, right? Like, so the one thing I didn't like about this was it doesn't take personality into account, I didn't think very much, right?

21:13 So I'll use an example. When Chris was talking about self-betrayal, What Larry would consider self-betrayal and what I would consider self-betrayal are completely two different things, right? Because I am 100% task-oriented. Like, people don't even enter my equation half the time, right? It's not that I'm trying to be in the box. I'm thinking about tasks, right? Where Larry's like 100% people-oriented and might miss a zillion tasks in the interim, right? So I did have some issue with that because, look, we're all wired. All four of us are wired differently. So am I being in the box? I mean, this is just a question.

21:54 Am I in the box if I'm not trying to be in the box, but I'm just being myself? Right? Because that's interesting. I think Bud, one of the characters in the story, right? The president at Zagram or the... Yeah, I think he's the president and the gal is the CEO. Yeah. Bud, I think would say, well, yeah, that's because you have created a box for yourself. You've created an identity for yourself that I'm a task-driven person. This is just who I am. And so you have developed a self-justified... What did he call it? There's this self-justifying image that justifies your in-the-box behavior of... others because I'm just a task-driven person. And I think a lot of leaders would relate to that.

22:35 And I think the book would say, you use that strategically to protect yourself from people being disappointed in you for not being more tuned in to the relationships and dynamics around you. I'm just a task-driven person. I don't agree with that. I can't be as present and as aware of these things. Yeah. Yeah, Brandon. I think another way to think about it, this is the way that I'm. They and Chris are like creating an alliance. I feel like I'm a survivor. They're meeting at the end. No, no, there's just something to learn out of it because it's something, I mean, we all have personality traits like that, that we justify how we are. Sure. And I can sit and use the justify thing with the way I'm in.

23:17 When I'm talking to people and bouncing around and being flaky, it's kind of in the box, out of the box. It's not paying attention. You are the quintessential in the box. But in the box can be so many different ways in the perception. Yeah, but hold on, Brandon, real quick before you start. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's use our service business. Our employees would have said that you're in the box more than I'm in the box. Oh, boy. Exactly. Shots fired. Well, hold on, but our clients and referral sources would have said that I was in the box, not Larry. Yeah, yeah. But Larry was outwardly focused. I was inwardly focused, right? So it's like, which one's right? Okay, so here's where I'm going to challenge us in this thinking, or at least this is where I went.

23:57 Because I don't disagree with you, Eric, from the perspective of we're not the same persons. Exactly. That was my issue. I was communicating that per se, but I think this is where I'm wrestling the most. And this is going to come out at The Collective. Yeah. is the unawareness. So I think what the book is really trying to talk about is that, Eric, if you're walking into a situation to interact with a specific purpose and a specific person, if you're aware of what you're communicating and how the audience is receiving it and what's fueling that, like if you know what's causing you to approach that situation from that perspective, you're probably not necessarily in the box.

24:38 I think part of what they're talking about is this place that we get as people where we begin subconsciously acting out and in our mind, creating a perception or a value statement about the person on the other side of the table. So like example would be, I was talking about this actually not that long ago. I felt myself in a moment getting really frustrated with a conversation I was having with my wife. And it's a type of conversation that happens. Like it's not one in a year. This is a fairly normal thing that kind of begins to happen. And what it is, is my wife has this behavior of asking a lot of questions. Like she's just a natural born curious person.

25:18 But if you're not aware, it can come across as questioning what you're saying. Like, have you thought about this enough? Or what's this way to think about it? You were telling me you, You're like judging. Yeah. And then I slide into this position where I begin to, if I just go with it, if I'm sucked up in the moment, I begin making judgment statements about she's not comprehending what I'm saying. She's not paying attention. She doesn't think I know what I'm talking about, whatever. And then I can feel myself begin to get frustrated. And then now in my response... It's this chirpy kind of like, I'm going to set the tone right of, hey, don't question me.

25:58 I know what the fuck I'm talking about, right? And so I'm responding out of this story that I'm creating in my head because I'm fully in the box in that moment. It's all about the way I'm judging my interaction with her from my perspective, from what I want, from what I feel, from how it affects me. And then I begin to act out of that. Whereas if I'm outside of the box, and actually it happened, where because I've read this book and we're recently going through it, I catch myself and I'm going, dude, you are literally judging the fuck out of this conversation and you're not actually responding to the questions she's asking. You've got this whole other thing you're responding at. Boom, I walked out of the box, Eric, and immediately began to answer differently, slow down the pace of my voice, slow my reaction down, and it fixed that interaction.

26:48 which normally would have kind of kept spinning out where we both just stop talking and I go on and do something. She goes on and does something. You know what I mean? So it's not like... No, I do. I wasn't even valuing necessarily anything there. It was just this fact I wasn't responding subconsciously. I was aware and I changed what I was saying and how I was posturing because I wanted a different outcome. I began to do something to get what I wanted versus it being a byproduct of my subconscious behavior. Does that make sense? I think so. Did I win you? I'm just trying to win you, Eric. No, look, I agreed with most of the book. The book is spot on. My only issue was I think personality comes into it.

27:31 Like I don't like, Chris, what you had said to me about I'm justifying my behavior or whatever, which I may be. And that takes all personality tests and makes them bogus, right? So like if I go take a Myers-Briggs or a disc or whatever, and it tells me basically the same thing in a different language every time, like you're very task oriented, you know, look, I'll be the first to admit, I miss lots of social clues that you guys would pick up on. Like, I don't even see them. They're just right over my head, right? And like, I tried very hard at our service company to really take a lot of the tech in-house, right? Because that's who I dealt with mostly. Like, that's why Larry and I are so passionate about disc because I needed that tool to not view everybody like a chess piece.

28:16 Like I had to figure out and learn how to interact with everybody so that they could feel as comfortable and productive and appreciated as possible, which I think a lot of this book talks about. Yeah. I guess my issue was like disc. I always use disc because that's what I know, right? Like my team knew how I was wired and we'd have conversations about this is how you're wired and this is how I'm wired. And like, hey, if you see me not appreciating you, say something. Because you know and I know that I'm not wired to do that, right? Like if you need a moment and like that openness that we had, it changed our entire service business. I guess I was getting frustrated in the book because I didn't feel like they were addressing any of that.

29:01 And I think that's important. I can kind of feel that. I mean, I think the fact that that example that you just gave, though, I think is you being absolutely out of the box. Yeah. Right? Because you're thinking about it. You're communicating about it. You know what can fuel people's perception of your behavior. And so you're actively engaging it. I mean, to me, that's crushing it. You're outside of the box 100% in that kind of posture. But I get what you're saying. Yeah. What did you think of that example when Tom Callum, he goes in to use that conference room? And the gal, I can't remember her name. Oh, I had erased his. It had erased his notes from a little strategy time that he had done previously. And he kind of flipped out. I thought it was very presumptuous for him to think that the common area room was his, to be honest.

29:45 I was thinking that too. He was like, yeah, isn't that something to share? Yeah. He wasn't that way. He was in the box all the time. Yeah. Yeah. See, but hold on, time out. Larry, I'm going to pick on you. That's something that would have snapped you at our company. Like that wouldn't have snapped me. Like Larry and I are different, right? We're wired differently. Like you would have been like, that's my room and they should know better. Like that would have been something that would have really bothered you. And I would have been like, eh, I should have taken a picture of the board. Whatever. You know, like where I have other things that trigger me, I'm not saying, you know, like, that's my point. Like, we're all so different. Like, Chris, you have things that probably tweak you out and Brandon's just like doesn't even raise his pulse and then vice versa.

30:25 But I think, so I 100% agree on the personality thing. Just for me, I felt like the framework, like the model of the leadership and self-deception thing. To me, it supersedes all of that. Because I agree. I mean, Brandon and I are case in point, just like you guys, right? I mean, Brandon and I in some ways are opposites in our orientation and similar in other ways. But I feel like the framework supersedes that in that it's really all predicated on, am I betraying myself? Or am I not? Right? And it's just developing awareness of that still small voice, right? That instant... So one of the first examples in the book that I really latched on to was when Tom Callum is... Or maybe it was Bud.

31:06 It was Bud or it was Tom that was talking about this example where his wife hated to walk out in the morning and have to walk all the way down the driveway to pick up the newspaper. Right? You guys remember that example? And how every morning when he would drive off to work, he was faced with this choice. Do I stop the car because the stupid newspaper kid just always throws it at the end of the driveway and he's faced with that choice? Do I stop and do I toss it up on the porch for my wife? Or do I just drive on and just kind of pretend like I never even noticed it? That idea of self-betrayal. There's this good thing that I know my wife would appreciate that I'm able to do, right? And I do or I don't. And when I don't, I betray myself.

31:48 And then as he goes on to explain that self-betrayal of how internally, in order to justify... my self-betrayal, I almost immediately start creating a story in my head about how my wife doesn't do anything for me or she doesn't do enough for me either. Well, she doesn't really take care of me. So you know what I mean? We start getting in this storyline about how the other doesn't deserve that good thing. We're rationalizing for ourselves. We're rationalizing that self-betrayal. And so now we have to see the other person not as good of a spouse, not a reliable employee, you know, whatever, in order to justify our own bad behavior or our lack of action, right? Dude, I had this this morning.

32:30 I'll give you a great example. So my wife took my car to get an oil change yesterday. I took hers. And my wife is wonderful. We've been together 30 years, like perfect person for me in every way. But my wife is not a detail-oriented person all the time. She and Larry are similar in a lot of ways. And so this morning, it rained like monsoon rains last night overnight here. And I get to my car this morning. Everybody's gone. And she left the door open. And the entire driver's side is completely sucking wet and soaked. And I am hot, dude. I'm hot under the collar, right?

33:11 And what else? Yeah. My wife and I very rarely in 30 years have ever argued. We don't argue about things. And I remember like I was doing, Chris, exactly what you're talking about. I was making myself the victim and she's so unorganized. And like, how could she not know to shut the door? And like, who does that? I've never done that in my life. You know, whatever, right? So I'm like going on. And then, you know, I waited a few minutes. I stomped around the house, got some towels, yada, yada. And then I started driving to the office. And then I called her and I was like, I'm super mad at you right now. You know, and she's like, why would you be mad at me? And I was like, like Larry said, I got a wet ass. What are you going to do about it?

33:51 You know, and I was just like, you left the door open and the car barely started because the light was on all night and it's wet. And, you know, and then she's like, oh, it was pouring. And I had the dog in the car and I was trying to make sure it didn't run off. Like she had a reason. that she probably just didn't do it. And then immediately, I felt like the asshole, right? So it's like, but I had already made myself the victim prior to that call. Yeah, yeah, right. Like, completely. And we all do this. We all do this. Everybody listening does this. Oh, yeah, yeah. So the argument, I'll use air quotes, lasted about 30 seconds. And then it was just like business as usual, you know.

34:32 But like, it's easy to forgive when it's someone you know. Yeah. It's a lot harder to do when it's someone that you're not close to. And I see, guys, I'm sure you see this with your client, your coaching clients. And I see it with mine. Not all, but... Like, or people who like, I've coached for a little while and it's just like, it's not going to work out. Right. The owners do this move where everybody sucks and they hold them to a standard that there's no way they could ever hold themselves to that standard. And they run around then holding people to a standard that they themselves couldn't keep. And then they run around like the victim all day. Yeah. Ever seen that one? We've all done it.

35:12 Yeah, we've done it. Yeah, I've been that person for sure. I'm going to revisit something like that before the weekend's over, if I'm honest about it. But that's classic in the box in a business sense, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. All right, Head, Heart & Boots listeners. Wanted to stop here just a moment and thank our underwriting sponsor, Bloodlight Consulting Group. As all of you know, right? You know, Brandon and I, this is our passion project, Head Heart in Boots is. But it's also a way more and more that our consulting clients find us. And in effect, they interview us, right? Those of you who've been listening to the show for a while, you get to know who we are, right? What we're about. So if Head Heart in Boots is valuable to you, one of the best things you can do is share it with your friends.

35:56 And it's been incredible to watch just the audience grow. And we still get text messages from many of you about shows that you really like and impacted you. So that's number one. And please keep doing that. Many of you have been huge advocates of the show. We also just want to remind you too, if you're a restoration company owner and you're interested in a partner in your growth, you want some help building out systems, developing your leadership teams, helping set up the infrastructure for you to scale and grow into the company that you're trying to build. That's what we do. That's what we do is we come alongside restoration company leaders and, We help equip them and we help support them in that growth trajectory. So if you're looking for that, go to floodlightgrp.com.

36:38 Potentially, we could be a great match for each other. Another way that we really do serve our client base and our sphere of influence is through our premier partners. We work really hard to vet those folks that we believe bring a level of value to the industry that it can really be leveraged in a way to have a sincere, positive impact on your business. We take that very seriously. The folks that we create those kind of ongoing partnerships, that's not a check the box kind of scenario. It's, we really see strategic alignment in the value that they bring. We see value in the way that their leadership teams and their partners are developed. And we've done very sincere work of ensuring that these folks that we introduce our clients and our sphere to can actually create vetted value. So go check out floodlightgrp.com forward slash premier slash partners and see if there's some folks on there that you can connect with and begin developing some other resources to support your growth and your business.

37:31 Yeah, I gave this example, kind of a work context or something that within the context of a restoration company. For the life of me, I can't remember what this example was, but it was one of our consulting clients a couple of years ago. There was this story of a project manager who had a deadline. They had a deadline for a job they were trying to close out, get a client back into their house, whatever. And if you remember who it is, you got to tell me. But we're talking to them. This project story was project manager had a deadline, needed to get a client back in their home by this date. And they roll into the shop that morning. They've already sent and deployed all of their trade techs to go finish all the punch list items. And they still needed more help. And as this PM is walking through the shop, they see a trade tech of one of the other project managers and grabs Johnny.

38:17 Johnny, hey, I need you to go over to the Jones project. I don't know if you heard about it, but I need you to handle all the drywall hunchless repairs for that. Just go take care of that. And we're good to go. I'll check in at the end of the day. Grab someone else's trade tech, reassigns them and sends them off to their job without any kind of dialogue with this other PM, right? That went over great, I'm sure. Yeah, right? Sure. But it's this idea of... We talk about it too. We use core values index similar to disk and all the other things. And I was explaining... I've often talked about this relative to the driver, the builder kind of persona, right? Where builders and drivers have a high capacity for putting the blinders on and being very task-oriented and task-driven, right?

39:01 They're the get shit done people. And one of the problems is they can easily get into the box where they start to see everybody that gets in the way of that task completion as an object, right? That they either have to walk over, push aside, right? Utilize to get what they need done. And it's very easy when they're in that state in the box to see others as just simply means to an end. Widgets to move around to accomplish tools and lose track of the personal relationships in that dynamic. So I think... All of us can do that. But I think in particular, people that are oriented as drivers, like you described, very task-oriented.

39:42 I think it's maybe they have a higher propensity to fall into the box just because of their orientation, like you talked about. But that's just one example of that in-the-box behavior. At work, we can become so objective-driven. But unknowingly, we start to see people as less than human, right? And more means to an end, right? Okay, so I've got a thought here, a challenge, Larry. And I actually want to point this at you. First, you're quiet. And second, I think that you're probably, we've talked about, you're closer in kind of Chris's kind of wheelhouse, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. Here's something that I feel like I see. Going back to your comment about the driver. Of course, I fall in that category, so I immediately got offended.

40:24 So from the way I see this sometimes is, okay, for that driver, task-oriented personality, our slip can be you're in the way. So when we objectify somebody, it's normally because I've thought about this internally for three weeks already. I have a plan, a strategy. I've already taken the first step in my mind to... I haven't talked to anybody about it, of course. And then when I start to execute, I've got three weeks of momentum already built. And then everyone else around me is basically an object, a tool, or a resource to either get in line with me and help me achieve this or get in my way and get the fuck out, right? Sounds familiar. I agree that Chris's assessment is fair. Yeah. But I think, okay, here's the balance to that.

41:06 I think the difference is, is that my more... What are you going to call me? Juvial relationally in quotes, because I think this is where the... Did you call me juvial or juvenile? No, juvial. Oh. I don't know. Juvial. Good word. Or jovial. I'm going to be a little angry to come up with. Yeah, I think jovial might be the word. Jovial. Okay. So... Anyway, he's got a point. Keep going. Yeah. So hang with me in my... blue collar speech here. So what I see happen though, is for a guy like Chris, he's no less self-centered in the pursuit, but what he thinks he's doing, and I'm not judging right now. How dare you? But what he perceives is happening is that he's being graceful about the other person. And the reality of it is he's looking at them specifically through the eyes of how it affects him.

41:51 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm driving a task and using you to get there. He's using you to feel good about himself. Well, okay. There's two ways to use people. You can cajole people would be more of my instinct, right? And you can command people and you can force, you can persuade people, you can manipulate, not manipulate, you can... No, manipulate you at a word. Different angles. God, I'm just like haunting for words today. Yeah. But yeah, it's so true. But what Brandon's saying is absolutely true. Like when I'm in the box, my behavior is really no different. The expression of it looks and sounds different. But the problem is the same. Yeah. So like where do you see yourself, Larry? Well, see, no, this comes back to the personality types playing into it.

42:32 Because I'll be in the box, but I get more aggressive and less unaware. When you guys, your Ds are in the box... You're more aware and you're more directive. I take the bad attributes of the D. So when I'm doing well out of the box, similar to just what Chris was saying, I want to feel good about myself, what I'm doing. I want to make other people feel good as I'm doing it. I'm still struggling to get accomplished just like you guys are, but I'm going a different way about it. If you have like an S that's more sensitive, there's going to be a passive aggressive approach. And you got to be able to navigate that and understand those as well. So I'm going to be doing it. I'm going to be having fun. And the people are going to be having fun with me as we go along.

43:12 And that's going to be something that I'm going to throw into it, getting something accomplished. Hold on. You're deflecting, man. Brandon's telling you to own your shit and you're not doing it. No, and I do. But that's because I have the negative traits. When I come across as a D, I have the negative traits. I'm owning that. So why don't you explain to everybody what that looks like? Oh, it's a disaster. Because I go in there, start bullying everybody around. I mean, the D attributes are no good. And I start getting angry and crapping on everybody and not being productive. And it's not good. Are you like pissed, though? Like, are you the yeller? Are you a yeller, Larry? Yeah, I can be. When I'm not in a good place, that D comes roaring out.

43:54 All the negative attributes. Larry's move is to interrogate people. with answers that he already knows. And then when they don't give the right answer, then he tells the answer and makes them feel small. Yeah. And that's the justification that comes out. I justify it right there. That's a good example for the justification. So when I'm wanting to get something accomplished, I need to be more strategic with my personality. It's not usually as direct as a D. We'll get there and have different ways of getting there. Sometimes it's better. Sometimes it's worse based on, you know, if you get a high C that's concerned about every single detail, that's going to alienate a lot of people.

44:34 All of us, I would expect, because we're not going to cross every T and dot every I. I mean, Eric's more C, obviously, than I am, but we just scared him away. Look at that. Steve Brandon thinks he's going to be full of shit. He just left. Hey, so... Larry, I got a question for you, man, because what I'm hearing, and I'm relating to this, I think I am, what I'm hearing is anger. So when you get angry about something, for you, what drives the anger? Because I know what it is for me. For me, what drives the anger is my thing. We all have our woundings. We have our failings. family cultures we grew up in that kind of drive how we see the world and how we react to stuff, right? And are just default wiring. And for me, whenever I feel small, if I feel like somebody has just made me look bad or my reputation, what people think of me, if people think I'm wrong or something like that, like that's where I react out of.

45:26 Like that's my big like reaction zone. That's where a lot of my anger comes from. Dude, you just hit the nail on the head. Yeah. Yeah. Is that for you? You think? Is that true, Larry? What's the anger driver? What's that true? No, usually I think it's, what I was thinking was when I'm not able to get accomplished, what I want to get accomplished, that's when I go to my deepest. Because why? Does it make you look bad? Why is the accomplishment making you angry? Because you just want to get done what you want to get done. Larry, I'm sorry, man. And maybe you're not getting things accomplished. Eric's going to jump in here. Now hold on. I have to because that's not true. Appreciate it. Thank you, Chris. Maybe you don't recognize it. Like at Shamrock, when you would flip the fuck out, it was always when something went wrong and you looked bad for a source or you looked bad in front of a customer.

46:11 And you even said that's when you would go off the rails and start showing up at jobs and trying to tell people what to do. That was all in reaction to somebody who explained. Yeah, that's true. I don't agree with you with like, I got to get shit done. I mean, obviously you're a hardworking person and you're wanting to get shit done. I mean, I'm with you a hundred percent on that. But when you would whatever in the box or misbehave or whatever, it was almost, at least from my perspective, always when you looked bad. Yeah, that's true. Because I'd have to call up my guy and be like, you know, my guy screwed up. I'm sorry. After I promised that everything would go great. Yeah, I relate to that, man. Yep, that's me. And that's me in the box. That's a classic theme.

46:52 And of course, in part of that, when I'm in that, I'm the victim of these circumstances and my team. Totally. Yeah, you're hitting it off in the head, right? And I start the stories that start to form in my head, especially if this has happened before. And of course, everything in a restoration company happens repeatedly. There are no perfect... There's no perfect service delivery over time. It's like... So there's certain things that just happen over and over in a restoration company. And of course, that I'd spin out, Oh, so and so did it again. They always... They never... Right? Like I start... villainizing the people that have caused this problem for me, which of course is just a form of me objectifying them.

47:34 They're not like me anymore. No, they screwed up. I'm the victim here. They're just, you know what I mean? In my head. They can't do it like me. They're not doing it as good as I would do it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that the other thing too, I've noticed that I do in my response to that stuff, because I relate to that. I'd go to the job site. I'd go straight to, I got to figure this out. I'd go into like... clean-up mode and problem-solving mode. But I realized just how much I actually exaggerate the thing that that person did or didn't do. Like in my own head, in my stories, it amplifies the thing that actually happened. You know what I mean? And how much worse it makes it when I'm in the box. But in the moment... Oh man, I'm just in total reaction mode.

48:16 You know, kind of like Tom when they erase the stuff on his board. It's just like, all I can think about is rescuing my reputation. It's all about me when I'm in the box, you know? Yeah, just like everybody else. 100%. In your own perception. Yeah, 100%. So here's something. Real quick, Brandon, I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. But Chris, like, see, this is kind of what I was talking about. That's a personality style, right? That you're very worried about your reputation where, like, I mean, look, everybody wants their reputation to be good. Yeah, sure. But like, if somebody complained about me, I'd be like, fuck them, whatever, whatever. I just move on and keep doing what I'm doing where maybe you or Larry would really take that to heart.

48:57 And I guess that's the thing that makes us so hard. It's like I see the in the box, out of the box, right? But I still don't fully, clearly see how we take our personalities out of that. You don't have to. Well, maybe, yeah, I think it's just part of the equation. Here's where I think I'm leaning is it's more like what's fueling my behaviors, my decision making, my perspectives on people. And this, I think what people need to understand is this ain't read the book and then be better tomorrow. Like it's more of a, it's a journey. It's technically this just becomes more conscious, more conscious, more awareness and different kinds of events and relationships, different scenarios.

49:39 You become more aware and proactive in the way that you walk into each individual situation. as you journey through this intentionality of, I can't just allow myself to respond to stuff without giving it some kind of thought of, why did I do that? Did it have value to me? Did I like the outcome? Did I get out of that scenario what I was hoping for? Whatever. So I think like the part that I'm wrestling with is however you define it, regardless of personality traits, I just don't want to be firing off at people or making decisions or talking to people out of my subconscious. I don't want my behavior to be driven by something I have not taken a look at.

50:23 I think that's what I take away from this is I want to continue to be iterating and understanding more of what makes me do what I do. Because when I do that, I begin to understand more of how it's affecting other people. And if it's something I want to continue to allow or if it's something I want to intentionally begin making some changes in. So like some of the things you're talking about, Eric, with your personality, there's elements of that you don't want to change. If you assess it, you're going to look at it and say, this is something that helps me succeed. I like this. Well, I think, Brandon, you just hit the nail on the head for me. Look, I want to make sure everybody's very clear. I loved this book. I think everybody should read this book. Like, I mean, there's so much value in this book. The part that I struggled with the most is what you just said.

51:06 I'm sitting there reading it and thinking, and the same goes for like Chris and Larry, right? Like in a different way, I'm going, yeah, but some of these things are my superpower. And I don't really feel like giving those up. Like somebody's kind of got to be the driver around here. And I might not always come off in my very best way. I would like to. Mm-hmm. But, you know, sometimes somebody's just got to be like, guys, just shut the fuck up and let's get done. Yeah. And it's like, how do you know when to use that? Right. Dude. Okay. There's a great example, I think, of really strong driver demanding behavior that's out of the box. Remember the story about Lou? Yeah, there you go.

51:47 The original founder of Zagrug. Yeah. With his son. Yeah. Yeah, on Bud's first team meeting. I know it was Bud on his first day, yeah. Remember that? And he had failed to complete the last 10% of his assignment for the leadership meeting. Right. And how Bud, or excuse me, how Lou corrected him. And it's like, you won't let us down again, will you? Yeah. Yeah, but when he was telling Tom about that story and Tom's like, shit, that's pretty harsh. That seems like poor leadership. And Bud was like, yeah, but it didn't come off that way for me. There was this level of honesty that Lou had established to where he knew that Lou cared about him. And it was done in a way where it was very demanding.

52:28 It was very stern. And yet he didn't feel like Lou was necessarily, I mean, I'm mincing the words here, but essentially it was done the right way while still honoring his own internal wiring of this guy being a hard driver with very high expectations and all the things, you know? Well, I think it's kind of like what you said earlier, Eric, was Larry normally is the one perceived by the external audience dialed in, but can be perceived as the guy that kind of loses or reacts to internal audience. And you are the polar opposite, right? So I think that's where the personality piece comes in. You were prioritizing giving clear connection and communication to your staff so that you could hold them accountable.

53:09 You could tell them when their baby was ugly. Right. Right. Well, yeah. I mean, I looked at it this way, Brandon. I think one of the things that I did right, like I did a lot wrong, right? We all do. One of the things I did right was I learned that I had to build lots of social capital with all of them. And the more social capital I had when I needed to drive, I knew I cared about them. And I would literally say like, look, I'm going to be a motherfucker right now because we need to get something done. But they already knew that I love them. Yeah, yeah. Right. Right. So all of a sudden, and I'm telling him like, I'm going to be difficult for the next 10 minutes. Yeah. Right. And they're like, okay, well, Eric's usually not to me. And then it made it okay. Where Larry, all of his energy was external, right?

53:50 So the same care and social capital to him went to clients and referral sources. So if he tried to say the same thing to one of our team members that I did, it fell flat because he didn't have all the time in. That was totally unfair to Larry, right? Because how is he supposed to do that? His job didn't require him to spend that much time in. I relate to that so much, man. I think Brandon and I had a very similar dynamic. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I think maybe a ton of people listening to this will relate between that external facing sales persona leader, right? And the internal facing operations leader, man. That is really, really interesting because we had that dynamic many, many times where I just, I had such a hard time relating and processing failure of my internal team and Because I hadn't invested the time and grade in building up that social capital with them.

54:45 All of my emphasis and focus and energy went to establishing those external relationships, those external bank accounts. Yeah. And that's exactly what I was doing too. That's why we get so upset if things would go wrong. You're making massive withdrawals in that love account. Yeah. There was a negative balance there. There wasn't much to pull from, right? Yeah. I didn't know what was going on with them at home or why it happened or what was going on or anything. And Eric would know a lot more about what was going on. And he'd tell me, I'm like, I don't care. It's making us look bad. You know, that's social. The investment that I was putting into these people like you were, Chris, was just getting ruined. Or doing well. You know, at the other end, when everything's going great, I'm not taking the credit for it, but I'm telling them I have a great team.

55:30 But I'm not bringing the team in there and introducing everybody either. Well, I think, too, Larry, the instability of it for them, right? So when things are going smooth, you're in the morning huddle and you're hugging people and high-fiving them. And then now, all of a sudden, you're wigging on them, right? And now they're going, like, I can't trust this guy. Like, I don't know which guy I'm getting on any given day. And I was much more steady. I'm not high, but I'm not too low either. I'm hovering this middle ground. So they're like, yeah, Eric's never going to come give me a hug. But Eric's not going to wig the fuck out on me either if I break a refrigerator door. You know what I mean? So like, but then at the same time, like if we had any issue out in the field with like a client, the first phone call I'm making is to Larry, hey, can you drive over to this client's house and smooth it over?

56:18 Boom, done, done. Right? Making my life way easier. Yeah. It wasn't me because I'm kind of cold and I'm not going to make that same relationship when that customer's mad. I'll just be like, okay, what's the problem? All right, cool. I'll fix it. It's total yin and yang, right? It really is. Absolutely. And I'm sure it's the same for you guys. If the two of you were running, owning a restoration business right now, that's what you guys would do. Probably the same. Brandon would call and say, Chris, we got a problem. Go smooth it over. Go make good. Yeah, 100%. I mean, we still do a form of that, all the constantly, as I know you guys do too, right? Yeah. Yeah, totally. I don't want to tell them no.

56:59 You tell them no, because you're going to do it nice and helpful. Well, so guys, I have to be really honest here. I feel like we need to land the plane one because I have a one o'clock and I imagine you guys do too. So do I. I have to pee so bad. I literally in my mind was thinking, I need one of those. This is four right here. I need one of those. I can't talk to you about it. I need one of those trucker bottles underneath the desk here because I'm like, oh my gosh, there's no way to pause our Zoom. One time we were on a podcast and Larry's infamous for doing what you just said. And one time I could hear it through my headphones. And I'm like, I'm sitting there going, I hope the guests can't hear this. Like, I really hope the guests can't hear this. I can honestly say I have never done that on a Zoom call or a podcast yet.

57:42 But the fact that you pulled it off makes me think impressive. If I have to, you know. You can't do it with somebody sitting next to you. Then that's really awkward. I mean, it doesn't make a difference who it is. It's weird. Oh my goodness. All right, so Chris, let's talk about landing the plane. So, all right, we had a great conversation today. And obviously, I think we all agree it's great. And some of us think, I mean, I think we all think a little bit differently of it. But how would somebody implement this? I think that's the question, right? I do have a thought here, and I'll give a practical marriage example that you could apply to just any aspect of your life with your employees, with your leadership team, with your kids, whatever. Brandon's heard this one a bunch of times. So here's the deal.

58:23 One of the issues that my wife and I have... Because my wife and I have had many arguments over 21 years. Eric, I don't know how you've pulled that off. But we still love each other very much. But there's been strife. One of the things is I am by nature not a detail guy. I'm not a tidy guy. If I lived alone... I would hire a housekeeper because I just, I'm not one of those dudes that cleans his house every day before he goes to sleep and puts his shoes in the same spot every day. I'm just like not a tidy person. My wife is actually very tidy. And so one of the issues literally since we first got married is, my tendency would be to leave dishes in the sink until the sink is full. And then you load the dishwasher.

59:03 all in one fell soup. So it would not be uncommon for me early in our marriage for me to just let dishes sit in the sink for two or three days and then finally load the dishwasher, run the dishwasher. It drives my wife nuts. And still to this day, that's like a love language for her. In fact, it's like foreplay, if I'm really honest. When she catches me emptying the sink and loading the dishwasher, it does something for her, right? So anyways. Dawn tonight! Dawn! So five years ago when I read this, this was one of the connections I made. I'm like, look, one of those instincts that I have where I constantly betray myself for many, many, many years is that I'll walk right past the counter covered with dishes, dishes in the sink.

59:44 And I'm just like, I don't give a shit because I really don't internally. But I know my wife does. And when I read this book, I'm like, oh, shit. It's like the newspaper on the front of the driveway. It's that thing, except worse, bigger deal for my wife. And so I finally got to the point where I made that connection. I realized that was one of the self-betrayals that I was constantly... And I started to connect it with all of my judgmental stories toward my wife. Like a lot of the other issues in our marriage or things that were issues for me, when I would walk past the sink full of dishes, subsequently, I would justify that decision by making myself a victim.

1:00:26 Well, she doesn't do this for me and she doesn't do that. And she's not conscious of this. She's not intentional about these things with me. So I guess serves her right. Now, of course, I would never say that out loud. I would never say that to her. You know what I mean? But this is the self-justifying language in my head that I started to notice. And you can't unnotice. That's what I think the benefit of these kind of books is that you can't unread this stuff. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so for me, when I finally made that connection, it was a transformational moment in my marriage because I started to realize what I was doing in my head when I'd walk past those dishes. Not only was I missing an opportunity to love my wife, to do something that mattered to her, but I was also betraying myself and it was stirring up all of these self-justifying stories and messages in my head towards my wife that amplified the negative attributes of my wife because we all have, our partners all have negative emotions.

1:01:20 negative attributes, just like we do, right? And I would find myself, I would amplify those things. I had these always and never stories that would spool up and then cause me to behave even more poorly towards my wife, you know, in other contexts, right? Until finally I realized how fucked up my attitude and my mindset was toward her. And then I realized what was going on. So for me now, it's pretty rare that I walk past the sink if there's dishes in it. Not necessarily because I'm trying to earn brownie points with my wife, although I'm conscious of the brownie points it earns, but it's because of this knowledge now. So I think my advice for people or the call to action I would have is for people to just start to maybe try and notice.

1:02:02 Right? Where you might be betraying yourself, where you have this instinct of, you know, hey, I really should just pick up the newspaper in the driveway and put it on the front step for my spouse or whatever. Or, hey, I really probably ought to just load the dishwasher because I know how much it means to my spouse, etc., etc., etc., etc. What is that for you at work? I think we all, we all can think of examples of, where we're pushing off a task or we're flaking out on a certain task or deliverable or something that we can kind of get away with. But we know, we know we ought to do it, right? There's any number of examples that I could give on the work side too, but... I think if we all did that, we were more conscious of those things, we would have a better life, right?

1:02:43 Our leadership would improve probably most. This pattern is something. Once you're aware of the pattern, you could recognize the pattern in your head. Because when I was reading, I'm like, oh my gosh, look at this and this and this. I was just lining them up. I was like, okay, cool. I got to figure these patterns out. And that's when you have to own them and be willing to make a difference. Just like you walking by the dishwasher. Yeah. Or foreplay analogy, you were like maybe looking for attention or something. I just figured that might be motivational for me to share that part of the story. Yeah, everybody's like, I'm getting the book. That's all I do. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, well, I mean, I can relate to that, Chris, and I won't take too long on this, but I had the same dishwasher moment in a way, like in a work context. So I used to go and check on jobs, right?

1:03:23 So when I'd go show up at a job, everybody would clamp up because I'd be like, why are we behind? You should have been two hours ahead of where you're at, right? Like, I never said, hey, like, hey, awesome. Like, early on, it was never, like, there could be a hundred things that were awesome. But I was always looking at the clock and like, what time are we finishing this so we can get to the next one, right? So then when I would get on site, everybody would clamp up because they knew what was coming. And they would already like be just like, they wouldn't tell me why we're behind, right? So we started learning DISC, which I think is a lot like this in many ways, right? And I think they complement each other, honestly. Yeah. So finally, through the disc in our self-awareness as a team, because we all did it together, I started saying, guys, look, I know I bust your balls when I get on site.

1:04:12 Like, we're going to have a thing where you guys do a timeout sign. So if I come in and I start going like, why are we behind? And you have the full right. I don't care if you've been here three days to throw me the tea and explain what's going on. Right. So that was my way of trying to get out of the box. That's awesome, dude. I love that. And I would do it. And then all of a sudden, even like Larry was saying, like my most S technician who hates conflict would like put the T up, right? And then I was like Pavlov's dog, right? That was my trigger to like calm down. And I'd be like, okay, dude, tell me what's going on. And they'd be like- We were trying to suck water and the truck mount broke down and took us 20 minutes to fix. Every time there was like an extenuating circumstance, it wasn't that they were being lazy.

1:04:57 But for years I had been showing up just grinding people on time. Like that's my one little example. I know I could figure more of like me teaching myself to get out of the box, but I needed to have like a system for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, guys, I'm literally overshare. I'm having to pinch it here. So we got to... I have got to take a bathroom break. We got to land this thing, guys. Who's picking the next book? Who's going to pick the next book? Don't do that to Chris, Larry. Who's... Brandon's up next. Oh, my goodness. Am I? Oh, okay. All right. Okay. I'm sorry.

1:05:37 Is this bothering you? Oh, bro. Come on. Let's go. Let's slam the plate. Gentlemen, always a pleasure, and we'll talk soon. All right, guys. Love it. Absolutely. Right on. All right. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart & Boots. And if you're enjoying the show, but you love this episode, please hit follow, formerly known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.