Ep 105 - Book Club With Blue Collar Nation, "Who Not How"

0:00 What's up, amigo? You beat me to it. I'm, uh... You know, I'm feeling a lot of things today. You and I had a pretty manly conversation earlier. Boy, howdy. I'm feeling all the things, man. It's a lot of gratitude for our situation. And then... And then there's some reality. There's frustration. There's angst. You know, irritation for other things. You know, it's like... Like lately, that whole Buddhist thing, you know, the yin and the yang, it just so connects with me. It's just like, there's really good stuff. And then there's other stuff. It seems like that's just the way the universe works.

0:40 It's just the way life is, right? I think it is. So there you go. Hopefully we didn't lose anybody. Hey, y'all, we're going to get into a podcast here. Don't worry. We got a good one. So this one, this is a special edition. We were on the Blue Collar Boys, Blue Collar Nation, their podcast. We love those dudes. Fun. We always do a little arm wrestling with them through our book club shows that we do. And this one was another fun one. In fact, I think, honestly, the book is called Who Not How. It's a great business book. I think this is one of our better book club episodes. Yeah. I think so too. It was an interesting balance of agreement in many fronts. And then some areas too, where we didn't exactly have the same perspective, which was always kind of cool.

1:26 I always liked that. Well, you know, the book for me was so motivational. Yeah. And yet, like virtually all business books, there's actually no silver bullets contained in it. I think some of the best books, they provoke you. Like they call you back to sort of truths that you kind of know internally, but you've neglected or you're just moving so fast, you're not paying attention. Yeah. You get in a tunnel sometimes with what your objectives are, the things in front of you, and you just lose track. And inevitably, nothing's as easy as we want it to be. So going back to the silver bullets, it's not. It's a reminder of some basic core principles that when we wrap our head around them in the right way, when we kind of stay in that vein, they tend to produce results we can all get pretty excited about.

2:15 Yeah. And of course, you'll hear it as a group, we kind of wrestle through some of these concepts. But at the end of the day, this whole who not how is, how are we thinking about the people in our sphere and what it means to the overall quality, capability, achievability of the mission in front of us, right? Are we allowing our ego to give us some kind of message that we have to be the best, be the owner of all things, be the only one that's creating the value? Have we gotten a cost first message posture where we're really analyzing the return too much from that. What is it going to cost me versus what does this investment mean to me and the team? Yeah.

2:56 It's like we're trying to hog too much of the margin. Yeah. It's the headspace we can get into. And, and, you know, one of the things we kind of hit on, I just find it's, it's so motivational, inspirational for me, this thought track, like, I so many times in my career have pursued hiring younger, inexperienced people because I can get them cheaper. If I'm honest, I'm just being honest, right? I've made that calculation as a business owner. Now, of course, I'm not going to compromise on attitude and character and stuff like that. But I think we can get in this mind space of, oh, so-and-so that I know could totally do this and they probably aren't going to be terribly expensive. And we can kind of try it out. And if it works great, it's a screamer deal.

3:38 I can get that person for 50, you know, instead of 75. Like I might, you know what I mean? Like you can just get in this bargain headspace. And the book does such a great job of really spotlighting the force multiplier. Like instead... What if I, like, let's just say like that role, like for in the open markets, a $75,000 a year person, I think what the book provokes in me is like, yes. And what if I found the person and they're a hundred thousand? Could that make sense? And I think the book is a resounding, hell yes, it can make sense. You get the right person in there that wants to build alongside you, wants to be a part of something bigger than themselves.

4:23 And they've got the right mix of talent and desire and all the things, right? Yeah, of course it makes sense to pay up for those people. Like it almost always makes sense. It's all about how could this person... make one plus one equals three. I'm so inspired by it. Even now with some of the decisions that you and I are looking to make in our own business and what we see other, some of our owner clients, some of the moves they're making along those same lines. Like, well, dude, we just had a one-on-one meeting with a COO executive that one of our clients made. It was probably one of their biggest hires they've ever made in their 15-year business. And you and I are seeing the fruit of it, bro.

5:04 It's a crusher. An absolute game changer they brought in from outside the industry. Game changer. If you're listening right now, you probably know who you are. You know who you are. Came from outside the industry, very high level corporate experience, but super tuned in, super high EQ, understands people, understands how to scale companies. And they are absolutely going to change this person. They already are. Oh, yeah. 60 days in, oh my gosh, it's just, it's so exciting to see. And you and I, I feel so much motivation out of it as we grow Floodlight. It's just like, oh man, I've been, I think what this book and the conversation really stirred up in me is, generally speaking, I think too small.

5:49 Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great reminder. Yeah. There's nothing. I think that is true. I think the book reminds you to get out of your own way. Yeah. You know, it's that whole like, hey, good reminder, 100% of zero is still zero, you know, and or the delayed gratification, right? So much of the opportunity I think for us to experience in our day to day lives is that delayed gratification. And some of us admittedly are really good at it. I do not fall in that category, not even by a stretch. I'm in that category that really struggles with the delayed gratification. And there's been many times in my life that it has cost me more. The opportunity cost was hard to measure until I looked backwards, you know, but...

6:31 Listen, to my employees, when I ran a state farm agency, when I owned a state farm business, I'm sorry, you know, if you're listening to this, I just didn't, I didn't, I was thinking so small. Yeah. I remember a particular hire in my agency where I had somebody that really... I should have been willing to spend... At the time, this was a long time ago, but 70, 75,000 bucks. I could have. But here I know... I remember. I remember the brain space, the calculus. But if I could get somebody in there for 55, then that's another 15K or 20K that I can take home in my personal income. And at the time, like the first couple years in agency, and again, this was like 12, 15 years ago or whatever it was.

7:14 It makes a difference. It makes a difference. Yeah. You know, that extra, whatever, $1,200 a month or whatever it was, it's like, I need this. I want this. I didn't have the foresight or the vision then. to recognize how much more I could have grown, just not my income. Yeah. But the whole scale of my team. Yes. By having somebody who is more motivated, more skilled and adapted to help me build. Absolutely. And so instead, I kept that 15K for myself. I took the responsibility on myself to grow and develop and scale the business. And ultimately, I never took it where I wanted it to go.

7:54 Yeah. I mean, ultimately, I got frustrated in the business and I ended up choosing a different path. And I'm grateful for that, obviously. But I look back and I'm like, you know what? I was using the wrong calculus. I was looking at the business the wrong way. And not coincidentally, one of my best friends who's a State Farm agent, he didn't take that path. He made some key hires invested in growing his capacity within the business. Right. I think that was that along with this, right? I forget what CEO or book I read where it's just like, hey, your role as a CEO or an owner, you could say the same thing about a GM. Your whole role is building the capacity of your team.

8:37 You know? Yeah. Like that's your function. Yeah. That's the engine. That's the engine. You got to build the capacity. Yeah. The horsepower and torque and mileage of that engine. Yeah. Like, and that comes from skill set and competency. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we can step over the right talent, man. Pick up dimes. Oh, bro. Yeah. I'm just so motivated by that. And I'm seeing the fruit of it. I'm seeing the fruit of it in our business. Yeah. I'm seeing the clients that are oriented around that and locked in on that perspective right now. We're seeing it. And the results and the fruit come faster than you think it's going to. That's right. we're seeing it on our team, bro. And it is, you think that you're going to feel leveraged for too long.

9:18 And the reality of it is you often don't. Now, all of this being, not being wild and chaotic. No. Decision-making. We're not saying that. No, not at all. But again, Let's get into this. You guys, if you haven't yet, obviously you're going to hear us talk about it for the next hour with these guys, which is super fun. But the Who Not How, check it out. Most of our listeners probably spend more time in the cab of their vehicle than most citizens. Guys, this is a great place. Eat this book up. It will change your mindset. regardless of where you're at in the business, owner, decision key, decision maker, department head. Oh my gosh, this theory. It'll at least get you right back in the right pocket. Yeah. Back in the right focus. So again, like you've heard it all before, but I think sometimes like through other people's stories, it makes it real to us and we can start acting out of that versus just the head knowledge.

10:10 And if you're one of those people that's listening, one of our folks that are listening to the show and you're not the owner or the department lead or the GM or whatever, ask yourself the question, how do I become the who? Because I think that's part of the magic too, is part of this conversation and the theory is... When we get better at looking for those who's in our business and in our sphere, the caveat to that is asking yourself the question, how do I be that person for my business partner, my partner in my home, my kids, my world? How do I more effectively become that true force multiplier and become the who that changes the opportunity that that decision maker had because of my performance and the way that I contribute and carry myself?

10:57 It affects all of us. And this applies all the way across the board. You know what, man? I read that email last night that Will sent out to a prospective client of ours. Oh, yeah. And I'm not exaggerating. And Will, I really appreciate you for what I'm about to say. But this isn't... I'm not blowing smoke up your ass to make you feel cool. Like I had a moment where I read through it a second time. And I asked myself the question... Would I have generated that good of an email if I had been replying? Yeah. What was the answer? And the answer was no. Yeah. I know. Honestly, I've read it and I went, I can't even connect the dots. Like my mind would have not even gone there. It was just so excellent. It was so excellent.

11:38 And it was just another one of those moments. We've had a number of them as we've been growing the company. But it was one of those moments, particularly because Will's in the sales area. He's in my territory. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so I have ego and pride and a standard that I've come to kind of, I want to put out. I want people to experience with myself. But it was another one of those moments where I was like, oh, man. this is what it feels like to build a team around yourself with people that are smarter and more talented than you. A hundred percent, dude. Like that was, that was a moment for me where I'm like, oh my God, that was so good. Yeah. It was so cool. It's true.

12:18 It was so cool. And we won't even go into our, you know, I mean, Scott, you guys have heard us talk about him. We kind of just, Anyways. Yeah, I mean, there's examples of that all across the team. And I just think that you and I, dude, it's taken a whole career, right? To get clarity in some of these areas. And so anyway, it's just, wow, it's really exciting. Let's talk about our sponsors and then we'll let you guys dive into this conversation. Just so it's clear, this will be kind of a weird transition, guys, because this is obviously us. This was a podcast done with the Blue Collar Nation. Yeah, yeah. The Blue Collar Boys invited. Yeah, we're in the blue collar kingdom. That's right. And all of these book club episodes are, which you guys will hear more of them.

12:58 But it's done with their show. And so you'll hear their intros and all those things. Just hang tight through that. And then we'll get into the heart of it. But you're right. Let's talk about our sponsors. Yeah, baby. Yeah, we love our sponsors. answerforce.com forward slash floodlight, answerforce.com forward slash floodlight. So every, every, I really truly believe this. The more you and I have kind of a privileged position, we get to see the inside guts of restoration companies all over the country. Big ones, small ones, really big ones, growing fast ones, stuck ones. Stuck ones. All the ones. All the different types of companies. And I think it's reasonable to say everybody needs a reliable call intake backbone.

13:39 You need a platform for that. And for some companies, that means you need potentially two dedicated receptionists. You need people cross-trained so you have a consistent call intake experience. We spend so much money to get the phone to ring. We spend so much money. to get the phone to ring. We put our necks out, building our reputation, all the things. And that call intake is where we can blow it all by letting the phone ring six times or giving an inconsistent call intake where we're not empathizing with the customer. We're not asking the right questions. And then ultimately, we're not delivering the right intel and data and information to our responding tech teams. There's so many things that can go wrong with our call intake.

14:22 And yet in our experience, we, the industry, we do not put enough focus on it. in some ways, it kind of goes back to our conversation leading into this of, I think a lot of us just think that receptionist role, it's like a $15 an hour job. You just throw somebody in there, hand them a call script, and that's it. It's like, oh my gosh, how many thousands or millions of dollars do we have coming through that phone? Yeah, right. And oftentimes, one of our primary first impressions right there. And And I can tell you as a consumer as well, I had a water loss. I had to call a local company. Now, of course, I had connections, which helped. You're calling bosses, not...

15:03 So even as I, as a customer, called somebody, a company that I really love and trust, have a lot of experience with... You know, that call intake experience, it's a variable. Yeah. With everybody. Yeah. And I think AnswerForce.com is a solution that helps us build a more reliable call intake platform. Meaning, when your receptionist is out to lunch, you can go into your app, forward your phones to an AnswerForce call agent that is going to replicate the exact same intake experience. They're going to follow the same script. as your normal, dedicated full-time receptionist would take. And how important is that?

15:43 And the fact too, that when we were checking with them, there's actually a cheaper plan than this. But it's like their standard plans, $370 a month. Super low. And I want to say it's for 300 minutes. And think about that, folks. Now, some of you are huge businesses. Fine, 300 minutes, you take in way more call volume than that. Well, fine. Fine. Yeah. So you can use this when your receptionist is out sick. Maybe a receptionist is on family leave for a while. Instead of having your phones hunt and just whoever rando person, estimator, COO, controller, dispatcher, pick up the phone. Hello, this is XYZ restoration. And then just wing it. Yeah.

16:23 to have an organized, consistent call and take process that maximizes every inbound call. Why would you not? $370? Yeah. I mean, come on. Let's not pick a triple of our dollars to pick up dimes. Yeah. It is one of those scenarios. So you owe it to yourself to at least do a demo. If you already have an extremely reliable call and take service partner that you use, great. If you don't, though, you really ought to explore this as a way to create some redundancy, stability in your call and take process in your business, You know, calls that are coming, whatever. Okay, anyway, they're answerforce.com. I've sold enough. You got a little preachy on that. Well, it is one of those things, dude. A little preachy, bro. I like it. It is. I do believe in it. You got in the trench on that one.

17:04 All right, guys. Well, I don't know if I'm going to breathe that much fire, but we're going to talk about Liftify. You know, actually, we just had our annual check-in with Liftify and the team with their owner, Zach and Nick, one of their head sales guys. They're both just studs. We did our annual check-in where they literally walked through all our current clients that are partnering with them. And they gave us a full breakdown on performance, plan and strategies for some of the teams that aren't leveraging it to the best of their ability. Just deeply connected with the results. They are relentless. And that was just another example of how important it is to them that what they provide to their clients is being... leveraged for high value. And that was just part of their check-in.

17:45 So anyways, Liftify.com, this is your go-to primary backbone for five-star Google reviews. And building that reputation, building that digital real estate recognition online for everything from SEO growth search, growth, I mean, you name it. And obviously, the most important thing is so that the world that gets exposed to you and your brand for the first time can go somewhere and see a bunch of people with the same opinion. And that is that your team rocks. And so go check them out, liftify.com forward slash floodlight. And again, there's opportunities for you to partner with them and leverage them on behalf of your business. I just saw another update email from one of our clients in Houston.

18:25 Oh, yeah. Just about... They implemented Liftify like 60 days ago. Yeah. And just... reviews continuing to roll in. And they're a multi-site business. And so they've got several Google profiles. And, you know, Liftify is optimized to where you can kind of direct, you know, the review requests to the particular to build up maybe... You can build up your market. Yeah. Like lesser satellite, you know, Google profiles and stuff. And they're just finding so much success with it. So yeah, it's exciting. All right. CNR Magazine, our other faithful sponsor... I think the thing I want to highlight right now that I just really like and appreciate is how they've partnered with KnowHow to do the state of the industry.

19:09 It's awesome. And I think them and Phil Rosebrook, yesterday, I think they had their big live little thing where they were breaking down... And it's just great. I mean, it's so great for our industry to have more data on what's happening in our industry, pay rates, just all the stats on how is our industry functioning? What are the trends? What are the things we're seeing and noticing? I think it's useful for all of us. I mean, it's the same reason why many of you listen to this podcast and why we listen to other leaders around the... It just helps to have our ear to the ground. not only to feel more connected and realize we're not alone. Yeah. Like we're all encountering a lot of the same struggles. A hundred percent. And challenges.

19:50 But then I think best practice sharing everything else. I mean, CNR is such a rich destination for the latest, kind of the bleeding edge of where the industry's at, what it's struggling with, where it's growing, where it's innovating. So if you don't subscribe to CNR, I mean, geez, what? What planet are you on? How many times do we have to say it? That's right. Guilt and shame. Guilt and shame, guys. That's right. All right, here we go. Let's dive in, guys. Blue Collar Nation, thank you, Larry and Eric, for having us on. This was fun. Later. Welcome back to the Head, Heart, and Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brennan.

20:30 Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. Man, I love this industry. Okay, we're back to the show, and we are having an amazing book club episode again with Chris Nordyke and Brandon Reese. We're very excited to have the Floodlight guys with us, hosts of the Head, Heart, and Boot podcast. How are you guys today? Oh, I'm psyched, actually. Totally good. Yeah. I'm ready to get into this one. Your energy shows. Yeah, we're really sure. Yeah, you're feeling it, huh? Larry, I have this distinct feeling just by looking at these two that we're on the hot seat today. Oh, yeah.

21:10 Good. That's right. We can handle it. So the book we're going over is Who, Not, How. It's one of Dan Sullivan's. And how do you pronounce it? I was trying to pronounce the other name. It's Benjamin Hardy. Benjamin Hardy. There you go. That shouldn't be that hard. No, that was the quintessential buy yourself another 10 seconds so you can look his name up. Yeah, I was like, we know what you did there, Larry. We do it all the time. You can't pull one over ours. Yeah, it is one of those stereotypically hard names to pronounce. Yes, Ben Hardy. Yes, I was looking at unabridged. I thought that might have been what I should say.

21:51 You know, guys, where I grew up in Maine, like Mainers curse like nobody else. Right. Really? And the spacer for when you're thinking is everybody says, yeah, and then I was fucking. And then they say like, so that like, so Larry, if he was in Maine, he would have been, what's that guy's fucking Benjamin Hardy? Dude, men, women, everybody does that. It's so I've never seen anywhere else in the country. Yeah, that's military. It's the same way. Is it really? Oh, yeah. If you hang in the military, they use the F-bomb. It's a filler. It's a descriptor. It's the core element of the conversation.

22:33 It could be all of the above. Yeah. I hear you, Brandon. Well, we're looking forward to the book. My filler got abused and thrown up and down, so I appreciate you guys for calling me out. But we're going to default to you, Brandon, for the thesis of the book, the intro, and give us an idea of what this was your book and your idea. So why don't you tell us, the listeners, what it's all about today? Yeah, you bet. So okay, so book is the who not how. And the key area basically is shifting, or key concept is shifting our mindset with the way that we look at developing a team, deploying our resources, investing in people. to ensure that we ultimately experience the big picture goals that we have and getting out from this mindset where it all is on us.

23:20 We have to be the best. We have to be the smartest. We have to be the ones in control. And it really flips a lot of those concepts on their head. So here's a little chat GPT summary example for you. So instead of asking, how can I do this? Ask who can do this for me? The shift in mindset can lead to more effective delegation, collaboration, faster achievement of objectives. And it's interesting as we go, I think it'll show in our conversation is the most interesting thing about this for me was the idea of just shifting literally the way that we consider how we're spending our money into our businesses. And so much of us approach the cost, if you will, of our team as a cost.

24:03 And we're looking at it purely from this direct ROI. This is going to cost me. I got to spend this instead of looking at I'm investing in this to create a specific outcome. Anyway, so I don't want to go too off. But I think that's the part that I hung on to. And I'm most excited, I think... Both of our businesses, obviously, this was very relevant probably to both of our teams in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah. And for me, just more on kind of that, the perspective or that main thesis, it really made me think about desperation brain, which is something we talk a lot about with the business owners and leaders is that I have to find somebody to do X.

24:48 that mindset. We do this with technicians. And we also, unfortunately, it causes us to keep people that can't do X because at least they can show up and carry equipment. Desperation brain is really predicated on people doing a specific thing for the business. which leads to a ton of bad outcomes. We keep people on that we shouldn't. We hire people that really aren't going to be awesome, but they can kind of do the work. And so therefore we slot them in so that they can do the thing. And I think what this book was showing is what if we focused on hiring people the kind of people that we really want to have in the business that can be through a force multiplier.

25:31 That they can not only just do the tasking, but they can bring their creativity, their passion, kind of who they are to the role and the company benefits from all of that versus just their capacity to do the thing or the current tasking. And the idea being that the current tasking we've identified for the team, the individual, the priorities and all this stuff Somebody, the right person may come in and say, God, there's a way better way for us to do this, more efficiently, get better results, right? That's what we really want to be hunting for is the person that could come in and transform the role or transform the business that we currently have. rather than trying to maintain or find people to plug into the existing business.

26:14 Yeah. Like low cost, right? What's the maximum I can get back for the least amount of spend versus... The fuel, the machine I have today. I feel like that was one of the main messages of the book is... Don't think about bolting on the factory parts for the engine that you have today. It's like, what parts or what computer modules or turbos can we add into the machine that make it a whole new different machine that make it a much, you know what I mean? Turns that Honda Accord into a race car. Like, who can I hire to make that switch, you know? Yeah, yeah. Thanks, spot on. It made me think, Chris, like I've read several books on Steve Jobs and I find him a fascinating human.

26:56 Yeah. And one of the constant mantras that he had in his business life was, I have to have the best people. Like, I don't want any duds. I don't want any marginal people in this company. A players hate working with B, C, and D players. I need to fill a building with A players. I think of anyone in the public sphere that I could think of, he spoke about that more than anybody else. And to me, I was thinking about him a lot while I was reading this book because he obviously thought differently. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, can I use a quick example of what Chris just said about force multiplier? So I have a coaching client who has a very large plumbing company and he's starting restoration.

27:41 I'm kind of helping him get that off the ground. We were talking yesterday and he just hired from another company, a sales rep, who the guy's take-home pay apparently was like 800 grand last year at his last company, right? So that, I mean, this is, we're talking Rainmaker. What? Yeah. So my guy brings him in and he's super nervous about it because he's like, look, man, anybody like that's going to have a huge ego. This is potentially a management nightmare for me. Right. So he's got these fears around this. And this is a person who's not a fearful individual whatsoever. I mean, to scale on his level. And the first week there, he sold a quarter million.

28:23 You serious? So what he did was, so my guy went back. He's a data geek. He goes into Service Titan, pulls that guy out, starts tracking everybody, all the other 80 plumbers out, right? Because they're having a daily sales meeting. And his average ticket last week, because these guys are seeing this guy come in like, just sold $75,000 job, just sold $50,000 job. $200 increase across the board for everybody else other than him. Because now like Chris used the term force multiplier, he's this guy's who on the public side, right? All of a sudden these guys are getting nervous. So these guys are going, I need to be better.

29:04 Like, so he overcame his fear of hiring a person like that. Hmm. Look what it's already doing in one week. That's awesome. Unbelievable. And then he said to me, he goes, I think I work for him now. You know, and to be honest, a little bit, right? Like, so, cause he's like, what do you think? And I'm like, I think your job is to keep him happy. Yeah. That's your new role with him. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's any leadership role as well. Keep your whole team moving along. Back to, I don't want to get too far off topic, but that goes exactly what Chris just said to me. That example. Yeah. Yeah, it's super relevant. It's interesting. I think in general, and we can kind of get back into a bit of a rhythm here, but I think in general, that was my biggest takeaway is just becoming more confident in identifying what it is that I feel I do the best.

29:59 What is it specifically in terms of competency, skill set, perspective, that I can offer the most to my personal and professional strategy, right? Those big picture goals. Where are we going? How are we going to get there? If I can just keep getting more and more clarity around what's my area of genius, if you will, like what is that thing and just be... like a monster at identifying then, how do I get these other things accomplished? Who's better suited to do these things? And it totally reshapes the business. For us, I think Chris and I have lived in that this year a lot. And the book just kind of helped affirm for us those moves.

30:39 This is the right stuff. Because sometimes you just question yourself, right? Because you don't know. Yeah. It takes time sometimes to see the outcome. And it takes money. I mean, I would imagine that $800,000 guy, I mean, I don't know, but I would expect he's probably got a $200,000 base. A guy like that's not going to... You know what I mean? He's not showing up to work for $60,000. And obviously, context. But I think it does require an upfront investment, I think, to grow your business this way. And that can be scary. But I think too... The fear of letting go is a big deal for a lot of business owners. This past week, we've been talking, trying to process through with one of our business owners who's just been stuck.

31:23 Because their who problems are they've got a lot of toxic people on their team right now. And it makes it very difficult. This is interesting. I didn't plan on going here, but I think it's really interesting. In order to hire the right who's, you got to get rid of the wrong who's. first. Yeah, because what good who is going to want to come into a rotten who-ville? That's exactly right. I think a lot of people that are having trouble recruiting right now, they underestimate the impact of having the wrong who's on the team. And they think, well, that guy or that gal, they're not going to see or hear about that stuff while we're interviewing. No, no, no, no, no. When you got the wrong who's on your team, your interviewer, your department heads, every person feels it.

32:07 And it takes away from that esprit de corps, that confidence, that excitement about the brand, about the team. And no one is as eager to bring people onto the team when they know it's a shit show and that person's just going to be disappointed. They're going to feel out of their element when they start meeting those bad players that they've allowed to stay on the team... Everybody in, it's like we know it. We don't talk about it. It's not similar consciously thinking, but the impact to the culture of keeping those people on because we're afraid prevents us from bringing the right who's in because they don't want to be around that shit. You know what I mean? They won't take the job. Yeah. No, they won't. Or if they get in, they'll turn over. They'll be like, oh my God, what did I just get myself into? Right.

32:48 It's the exact opposite of the example you were just saying. To rise everybody up, you can do the opposite just as easily if you're not as aware and conscious to manage the people that you've got there. Yeah, 100%. Actually, it's easier to go that direction. It's easier for the ship to start shaking. So is the owner afraid to retract for the greater good? No. that the owner is just, you know, really, really needs to relinquish CEO control to somebody else. He's got a big heart. You know, he's got a big heart and I think just struggles to... Doesn't want to be the bad guy. Oh, you know, gosh, they've been with me for seven years. We went through some hard stuff four years ago and they hung in there and they...

33:29 They continued cashing my paychecks. I owe it to them. I mean, I'm exaggerating. But just that a big heart, but doesn't want to be the bad guy. You know? It's hard to scale that. Really hard. Big time. Big time. All right. Well, should we get in our own baggage? Yeah, I think so. I think so. And because you opened the door, Eric, I think you got to lead us out. Yeah. What are you thinking? I will. Sure. Well, I was thinking a lot about you guys, actually, when I was reading the book, because you have added a few people this year. And I think those were from at least the outside looking in, really good moves.

34:09 And and potentially really going to help you grow. And meanwhile, I looked at Larry and I, and we haven't done that, but we're in the process of doing that in different ways. Like, I think for us, look, the reason I'm so, I've been sick, like massively sick two times this year. The previous like five years, I was hardly sick at all, right? I have literally worked myself to the bone. And you guys know as a coach, you're also, you're taking in everybody's stress and problems all day long. Yeah. And there's no getting around that that has a massive effect on you personally and your health.

34:51 And I mean, we've laughed about it. You guys laugh at me and think I'm insane. I just go boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, like nine to 10, 10 to 11, 11 to 12, 12 to one, one to two, two to three. I mean, I do that every day. And yeah. I mean, I'm not saying I have no breaks, but it's like the way I have structured this whole thing, I don't have a who. I'm the who, right? And when I go down, it's just not scalable. And we didn't actually start doing this on purpose anyway, right? And look, I gain great value. I love my coaching clients. I really want them to be successful, but not at the expense of my own business and my own health. Yeah, that's huge right there.

35:32 One of the things that Larry and I are doing business planning for the next month is we have to figure that out. So that was really on top of my mind. Because, dude, I'm reading this flat on my back in bed. You know, I had scheduled a vacation because I was so burned out. It was the first time I had taken off since Christmas. And one day in, I'm sick. As soon as the adrenaline went down, boom. Yeah. I'm flat on my back. And I knew why. Did you notice that at the start of almost every chapter in this book, it started with an owner being like super ill? Did you notice that? Yeah, that's true, actually. Probably hit me harder than you guys.

36:15 But yeah, every chapter started with a story of an owner who, you know, had either fallen off a roof and tragically hurt themselves or they were sick. And look, that's a real thing. That's what hit me the most. And I think for Larry and I, guys, I'll let Larry chime in after this. It's like, for us, at least, I think, in the next year, because you can find who's either internally or externally. I think for us and the thing that we really are pushing more, which is the video training and all that, like that's... in our mind, our core business, it's having a lot more external who's. Like you said, Chris, paying for that, right?

36:57 Coming off the road, not being on so many trade shows, not spending so much on flights and hotels and food and trade show booths and saying, well, you know, let's pick a couple trade shows a year, do those, and then reallocate that money to find our who's in digital marketing. Yeah, 100%. video editing and all these, and even it could be in sales, you know, having people work the phones. That's how I see it. I don't know, Larry, Larry and I haven't fully had this conversation. We're kind of having it on, on air. No, we're walking the walk as coaches being the who we want to be the who, but we have to reciprocate by not doing the how ourselves.

37:39 We have to keep reaching out, finding people to the who, just like you were saying, I mean, who can we do externally or higher internally? just to get things accomplished. And I'm the biggest person doing the how on a regular basis. So this was just hitting me right in the face. And then when we talk to people, like, you know, you got to reach out to, you know, talk to the experts and specialize and put them on the right seat in the bus. And what you were saying, Chris, was the right seat on the bus. Put the people in the right seat on the bus so everybody's effective, so everybody can make the most amount of productivity, money, progress, whatever you're measuring. Those KPIs, if you specialize and focus on it, in the long run, you're going to have the most ROI on that.

38:20 And that's what I took out of it. I'm probably the most guilty, I'm sure, out of the four of us. We're doing more how than who. but I enjoy the who more than anything. Cause my high I, I want to interact with everybody, make things happen and collaborate. That's all I want to do. When you sent this book out, I was like, Oh people, they're not going to be talking. You know, you saw that text. I'm like, yes, I was all excited. And I was like listening to it. Cause I listened to the whole thing. And I was like, Oh, I was getting kicked all over the place. Yeah, same, same. I think the part, one of the parts that stuck out to me, you know, when he's going through essentially like what you get in return, right? By being focused on the who, these things that you get back and he talks about like freedom of time, freedom of, you know, finance, freedom of all these different elements and...

39:10 And I think the part that I was kind of connecting with, and again, everybody's business is just like anybody listening or on some part of their journey, right? Small, large, medium, midterm, whatever. Our business is obviously in its earlier phases. And as it's changing shape, I keep finding myself almost getting loose with my strategy. It's easy for me to get pulled off the strategy. But as I'm reading this book, as I'm listening to these core concepts, I'm like, no, wait a minute. holding that strategy, holding on to that path that you originally outlined for yourself when you were dreaming in quotes, like what you wanted, what you wanted the business to feel like, all those things.

39:53 It's easier to stay in that place when you're looking at how am I going to invest in the people to help me bring that dream to fruition. Yeah. instead of it just being this pounding pressure that you keep placing on your own shoulders to be all those specialists. And I think sometimes when we say this stuff out loud, everybody's like, yeah, duh. But we're all living in it though. It's like we know, but we don't want to experience it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think one of the mindsets that's tough for a lot of business owners to get out of, certainly for me, and we've both talked about this, is you have this instinct to be really Spartan A lot of times when you're first getting the business, you have to be Spartan. Yeah, you were. That's great.

40:33 We didn't start our businesses with a war chest of capital, whereas we can just spend, spend, spend until the money starts rolling in. So you learn how to be Spartan. You learn how to work out of a shitty office space or a storage shop for a while. It's like everybody who's listening to this has had some version of that story, or most people do. Or is still in it. But yeah, there comes a point. Yeah, or still in it. But there comes a point where, yeah, is it Spartan to still have all your drinks and stuff in a little crummy dorm fridge and you got shitty secondhand desks? Sure. But where you have to start to flip that is in the people you're hiring. And this makes me think of... a video, a rando. And I'm not actually, I'm not a huge follower of Grant Cardone and his stuff.

41:16 But I recall this video that he put out and he was talking about hiring people. And he said, Hey, people, as much as you possibly can. And of course, it's a little bit hyperbole there, right? Because he's a showman. But yeah. But I thought about that a lot. And it's like, no, there is wisdom in that. If you've clearly identified what that who is and what their impact and their role is in the business, pay them as much as you can to get the most quality and the most engagement out of that person. That's what he went on to say. It's like, let's not mince words. Money and financial security is a chief motivator for people.

41:59 And you got to be willing to pay up for the best product you can find in order to take your business where you want it to go to create the best business you can build. And there's such a direct connection there. And I think we forget that. I've made this mistake so many times as I've been growing little small businesses that I've owned. And my mindset is, how can I get a deal? How can I find that diamond in the rough that I can pay him 50 grand but get 100,000 worth of production out of them? Yeah. I think that's a lot of times as we're young in our business, or even as we continue to grow, we still see this in some clients that are 20 years in and being very successful. They still have that mindset. It's like, oh my God, what would happen if instead you started hunting for the best person and you found a way to pay them?

42:46 Yeah. I think that piece of context is really important. Right? You're not saying to overspend to overspend or to provide people big incomes Instead of trying to get something for cheap, which causes you to search the wrong way. Yeah. Flip that on its head and go find the person and then create a strategy to be able to afford them. Yeah. Don't discount the role. Don't trim away at the job description and scope of work. Find that person and then figure out a way to pay them what you need to. Yeah. To bring them in. I have a coaching client that he has a restoration business.

43:26 It's kind of in its infancy. He had been a carpet cleaner for a long time. And we're starting to work together. You know, he has some big goals. And I started asking, you know, okay, who works there? And, you know, and then I get to the point, so what are you paying that person? And all of a sudden, he's like ripping off $35 an hour, $40 an hour. And I'm just like, dude, you realize that's like double the going rate, right? Like, I don't know how you're doing this. And, you know, he had a really interesting take on it. He was like, Eric, I know right now this isn't good for me. Like, I know this hurts me financially. He goes, but these guys will help me scale. And then I can put lower, like, price helpers underneath them.

44:08 But I need four or five people right now to just supercharge me up. And then I'll figure it out. And, you know, the bean counter part of me is like, twitching in my seat going, I got it. But I've noticed in the time that I've been working with them, I mean, dude, the guys that he has is like a technician or what project managers are at most companies. Yeah. And when we are working together, he has none of the encumbrances that the average person has because all of his guys are out there killing it. Like, so time will tell how that plays out. Yeah. But you know what, man?

44:48 I think that's his own genius. Yeah. Because he doesn't have any friction from them because they are making so much. Everything is like kind of Chris said earlier. They're all A players and they're all working towards a goal of blowing this thing up. Yeah, I think, dude, that's a really great example. I mean, it literally... We've had some similar conversations with some folks. Because again, that's one of the beauties of being a consultant is that you meet all these different entrepreneurs trying to make a go at it in all these different ways. And we certainly as a group can identify some of those core elements that are universal, that just work and they're foundational.

45:29 We can implement them, we can do them. But there's always going to be a lot of different ways to deploy some of those systems and processes. And I think that's a perfect example. And we're talking to another couple groups where they're experimenting with how high they can go and what they pay their technicians. And I think you hit something really specific there. And that is, don't keep paying higher and higher wages for part-time give-a-shit people. That's not what we're saying because you just lose. But if I grab somebody that at $24 an hour, there was no prayer in hell that they would come join my team or do the hard-ass nasty work that we do, but I could pay them $35 and they will come do it with a smile on their face and help me implement process to make it better and more efficient and they're going to move with a sense of purpose...

46:17 My gut says that job will be done at a higher margin. Maybe we spent more in our margin on labor, but did now instead of placing 70% of the equipment the job could have handled, what if we're placing 105, right? Instead of being on the job an extra day because we bullshitted and took too long, we cut six hours off the production, demo production of that product. Like my gut says, if we're deploying high caliber people, even at a rate that kind of makes us nervous, I mean, I haven't seen it yet. But it shakes out on the P&L. Well, here we go. His P&L looks as good, if not better than most companies.

46:57 There you go. Yep. There you go. Which I think the principle, right, is if you're going to overextend yourself, overextend yourself on the people and stay Spartan with your G&A. Yeah. Yeah. Better to have trucks that don't look quite as nice and the best people in town. Right? Yeah. You have to walk the walk. And that's what the whole thing is. If you want to make a bundle, you got to pay people to get you there. If you want to make a lot of money, you can't just skirt on all these different things. And it's going to be a problem. And what he was saying, you're going to have a whole... On what you guys are saying right now, all the money you're going to save from less problems and more productivity are going to make a difference in your cost of goods sold on each job, just like you were talking about.

47:41 It's going to be huge. And what Dan was saying is I can specialize. Yep, exactly. Go ahead. That's it, Larry. And it's like where... What then happens to the business because the owner, instead of spending 85% of their week... cycling through the same lost energy bullshit if every week there was legitimate progression downfield because that's all they were thinking about. The majority of their time was spent on what's next? What's the next strategy? What's the next tier? What's the next relationship? What's the next role I need to invest in to continue this pace? When owners can stay in that lane, that's where you watch a company go from 3 million to 25 in just a few years.

48:23 All right, Head, Heart & Boots listeners. Wanted to stop here just a moment and thank our underwriting sponsor, Bloodlight Consulting Group. As all of you know, right? You know, Brandon and I, this is our passion project, Head Heart and Boots is. But it's also a way more and more that our consulting clients find us. And in effect, they interview us, right? Those of you who've been listening to the show for a while, you get to know who we are, right? What we're about. So if Head Heart and Boots is valuable to you, one of the best things you can do is share it with your friends. And it's been incredible to watch just the audience grow. And we still get text messages from many of you about shows that you really like and impacted you. So that's number one. And please keep doing that.

49:03 Many of you have been huge advocates of the show. We also just want to remind you too, if you're a restoration company owner and you're interested in a partner in your growth, you want some help building out systems, developing your leadership teams, helping set up the infrastructure for you to scale and grow into the company that you're trying to build. That's what we do. That's what we do is we come alongside restoration company leaders and We help equip them and we help support them in that growth trajectory. So if you're looking for that, go to floodlightgrp.com. Potentially, we could be a great match for each other. Another way that we really do serve our client base and our sphere of influence is through our premier partners. We work really hard to vet those folks that we believe bring a level of value to the industry, that it can really be leveraged in a way to have a sincere, positive impact on your business.

49:52 We take that very seriously. The folks that we create those kind of ongoing partnerships, that's not a check-the-box kind of scenario. It's we really see strategic alignment in the value that they bring. We see value in the way that their leadership teams and their partners are developed. And we've done very sincere work of ensuring that these folks that we introduce our clients and our sphere to can actually create vetted value. So go check out floodlightgrp.com forward slash premier slash partners and see if there's some folks on there that you can connect with and begin developing some other resources to support your growth and your business. Guys, I can't begin to convey to you just how transformational the three hires we've made this year have been to floodlight.

50:37 And it's picking up pace. And it's growing in pace. I'm sitting with our VP of sales that we hired and the level of expertise and ingenuity and creativity that he's bringing with things like chat GPT and creating backend services funnels and ways of us organizing and automating and developing our process and our outreach and the systems. It's nothing I would have ever been able to put together myself. And we didn't even... Much of it, we're not even asking for directly. They're bringing that ingenuity to us. Wow. without us even prompting it. Then you know, it's like, oh my God, we made the right... Yeah.

51:19 We've had these moments of affirmation over and over again. We're like, oh my gosh, we hired the right people. Oh my goodness, this is incredible. And that's what happens, you know? Well, and it's mutual, right? Because at the end of the day, our team members, if we hire the best, and again, we find the people, and then we find a way to compensate them, right? In a way that's a win-win. Like we figure it out, we've done that. And our people ultimately now, as Chris and I get closer and closer to sitting in the right seat ourselves, then we all benefit, right? Because they're doing the things that they're just engineered better to do naturally. Chris and I aren't fumble-fucking around with these half-ass attempts to get some of this stuff put into place because we're not designed well for it.

52:05 And now we get to really dial in on what are we doing next? What event are we going to? What group do we need to sit down with and spend time and energy with to figure out what out a win-win. Where are we going as a business? And all of a sudden, it's that whole concept around the flywheel. It's like the idea is we're going to reinvest in the people. It's going to take a little while for them to get their legs under them and start to be able to benefit and take control of that position. But then as they do that, that flywheel comes up over the top band and boom. Then all of a sudden, that momentum starts to get behind it. And then it's like, watch out. And we're literally sitting on the precipice of that as an organization because we've gone through that hard foundational part where we get the first pillar people on the team so that we can begin to recognize and live out that momentum.

52:54 But it's real. It's scary as shit the whole time that you're doing it, but it is real if you can commit to the concept. It does. That's what the whole book is talking about. Because you guys aren't doing all the tasks. You're not doing the how. at all. You got the who, people doing the how, but like you said, you said, it's scary taking that step and throwing all that, you know, you're just throwing it out there, hoping that it'll work, doing all the things. It sounds like you guys found key players, the who's that are going to help you get to the next level. And the listeners are thinking the same thing. Okay. I can probably do the same thing. And Eric and I are thinking the same thing as well. And we're all going to be thinking it.

53:35 I mean, the guys there in the book, he has all these people working for him, Dan, and he's constantly thinking. It's like a lifelong shift in thinking, like you were saying initially, shift in your mindset. And we're all going to bring up examples. It's moving from thinking to doing. It's where most people fail. All of us included. Yeah, totally fair. Right. How many times have we had conversations? You know who I just need? I wish I could find. Man, if I only had. Right. But it doesn't translate into a focused effort. Right. It's always like when I hear somebody say like, you know, I'm like, oh, you know, what are you working on? I'm trying to get in shape.

54:15 Oh, then you're not fucking getting in shape because you already told me you're just trying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As opposed to, hey, I'm training this many hours a week and I've dedicated this much resource. Like then that you're like, that person's going to make it. Yeah, they're going to do it. That's right. Yep. It's almost, if you guys ever noticed that some of like a lot of the best entrepreneurs, a lot of them are not balanced people. Right. They just go all in, like sometimes to their detriment, but like the ones who seem to really do well, they just burn the boat, man. Like they just burn the boat and they go and they're going to make a decision and they actually implement it, you know? Yep.

54:56 I mean. Even when it's not perfect. Yeah, they just do. They just like to get into it. Let's figure it out. Yeah. I mean, Howard Partridge, who was our mentor, wrote a book called Failure to Implement. Great book because, you know, his thesis of this book was most entrepreneurs don't ever get where they want to go strictly because they don't implement what they already know they need to do. Yeah, it's very true. So true, yeah. Well, and I think one thing is like, is people are listening to this, you know, like this broad stroke idea of hire the right people and let them do what they're good at. Like everybody can hear that from a, you know, kind of surface level and go, well, yeah, duh. I think also when you read a book like this, you're getting all the examples of where it worked out, right?

55:41 Well, they were stressed. They were XYZ. They hired this person. They were so brilliant. They did this. And all of a sudden their business was brand new and everything was hunky-dory. And that does happen. But I think the reminder here is, and it's going back to your effort comment, Eric, is don't be afraid to be comfortable with the fact your first couple tries might absolutely blow up in your face. I made examples of that too. Yeah. Yeah, in the book. It just doesn't work sometimes. It's perfect. It's not always going to be... We make mistakes. We read the person wrong. Even though we've done everything we can to build some kind of mutual relationship and learn about them before we make that decision and that commitment, I think that we're still going to make mistakes.

56:24 And we just need to realize that that investment was still worth it. It was still worth the time and effort. Keep going. Right? And we have a client right now that is in the midst of doing some restructuring of their organization. And they're looking for some additional key leaders to bring into a really strong group. They've got foundational capacity at the top tier in the organization. They need some higher level competency in their department level leadership. And so they're frustrated because they've been trying to fill one of those seats for a long time. And it's like, they think they have the right person. We were even duped recently on one of them where we're like, okay, this person's going to crush. And they've been wrong, man.

57:05 They were mishires three times in a row. And that team is so disgruntled and frustrated. But it's like, you guys have to keep going because not having this role filled is not the option. Like that's a non-negotiable So keep going and putting in the paces on that fight. So I think a reminder for me is our next hire might be a total fucking bomb. We're going to do the best we can to prevent that, but it could happen. And we can't all of a sudden then lose the momentum or the prioritization of finding that right person, right? So anyways, that's something on my shoulders, I think, from this. I have a little insight, I think, to add to that. So for Howard Partridge's group, I have led a kind of a mastermind called Get Off the Truck for home service guys who are owner operators and who want to scale.

57:56 So I just recently, we stopped doing it. I did it for about a year and a half. And the interesting thing, Brandon, it goes exactly what you said. The point where the guy would have to go and hire a helper. was the sticky point. And it wasn't, I don't, after having done that class for once a week for like over a year, the sticking point was their fear of hiring the wrong one, right? They're like, well, what if I hire the wrong one? And I'm like, well, then you fire the motherfucker and you get a new one. Yeah. Right. Like to me, that's just like normal, like behavior, right? Like, I mean, we're going to try to train them, but if they're not the right person, they're not the right person. And then, but to them, that was failure.

58:39 Yeah. Right. And like, and look, a couple of them had said they had tried to do that and then went years back on the truck by themselves because they're like, well, this isn't for me. And I was like, dude, if you know how many bad helpers we hired and fired and, you know, it's like we had guys we'd hire that we thought were going to be really good, just like you said, Brandon, and we'd get them out in the field and it would be like Nightmareville, like immediately. Yeah. And, um, Larry and I did, we, we were trying to get a manager, like a general manager. We, we interviewed a guy four times. I mean, long form interviews. We thought that this guy, he interviewed really, really well. I went on vacation his first day.

59:22 Larry called me at noon the first day and went, this guy's not going to make it. I was like, what? And then he just like started going into like some of this guy's behaviors, like right. Like, and it's like, well, who's that person? Because we didn't see that person in any of those four interviews. He was just a master at interviewing. Yep. So, I mean, it's not like we shut the company down and said, oh, well, there'll never be a general manager. Like we just, well, I guess this is not going to work out with this person. We need to keep going. You know, that's kind of an interesting, it's an interesting zone, right? Like I feel like over the years I've become more confident in making decisions like that where you just like, we were wrong.

1:00:06 Like this is the wrong move. Let's go. Let's get it over with. Let's move on and get the seat emptied and open it up. But I don't, even in our business, like us personally, we don't get faced with that lot. You know, I don't, I'm not hiring techs. I don't, I don't have 30 people on the ground, you know, that I have to worry about. And so it's, the context is certainly not as robust as somebody that's hiring and firing technicians on a regular basis. But you used to do that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think where I was going with this is there's something that we've slipped into. Oh, actually, I think you and I were talking about this yesterday. Where we're in a hurry, right?

1:00:46 Like there's this pressure. It's hard to hire. So most of our teams have holes. And then on top of that, there's this pressure coming from recruiting companies and stuff. Like once that process starts, move, move, move. Get them on the team as quickly as possible because they might go somewhere else. And I agree with that if it's a matter of us not following up with communication or taking too long to respond or scheduling a follow up. I see all of that as being the wrong move and it's going to cost you. But I think we do have to not then allow that to slip in into the cadence at which we're asking these people to come spend time with us. Because if we're finding the right person, Chris talked about this yesterday, was they're interviewing us as much as we should be interviewing them.

1:01:33 And if we're honest about it at the very beginning, like, look, hiring decisions for our organization are really important to us. We take it seriously and we do not want to be in a hurry. If you feel like you need a decision from us in a very short period of time because of your personal circumstances, let us know and we might be identifying it's not the right fit already. And that sounds scary as fuck to anybody trying to hire right now. But think about the quality of person that says, I respect what you just said to me, and I want to go those steps with you. Like you're already identifying, well, on a caliber level, we might be talking to the right damn person here. Now, I don't think we need to do four interviews for our frontline tech positions.

1:02:16 But man, project managers, estimators, some of these salespeople, coordinators, salespeople, like... Dude, A, if they're the right people, they already have a job that's probably paying them pretty damn well. And the only reason they're going to think about another team is that culturally, something is dynamically different with your organization than where they currently are. Well, one of the first places to start figuring that out is, are they battle patient enough to ride or die with you a few times so that you can get a fucking chance to learn about each other? Like if we can't do that, we probably are off on the wrong launch already. I don't know. It's opinion, right? If it's one of those people that are the strong people that you're going to pay good money to, or they're going to be on the right seat on the bus, if they're going to want to jump in real quick and want to rush, rush, that's a big red flag that they're not the right people to be coming along.

1:03:05 And you're going to want somebody that's going to want to, I mean, it's all pacing. Everybody has a different pace. But if you explain it and you're direct up front about it, And your accountability, what you've got going on, that's just like he was talking about in the book. If you're straightforward, up front, it just goes a long way. What you're saying is right. Well, and I think, too, we've talked to some teams that prioritize introductions to the spouse or partner. And there's an interesting dynamic that happens when you share a meal and hear and ask questions and directly reference that person as a person. Right. And and it's like I think some of the employers, if they're listening to this, they're going, dude, I don't have time to be meeting with people for time.

1:03:46 You don't have time not to do that. Dude, say that again. Right? Brandon, right now, I have a client, hired a general manager, guy had a shit ton of experience. I interviewed him for them. Amazing. They didn't do the dinner with the wife. And she expects him home at five o'clock every day. And now all of a sudden this guy who's amazing in the restoration industry and is getting his phone blown up. And they already have, they had replaced another guy with similar issues that ruined their culture for the technicians. And now they're going like, what do I do now? Yep.

1:04:26 It's such a perfect example. Perfect example. But here's one other thing I wanted that jumped out at me in the book that I think maybe I've struggled with a little bit more than you just because of our just wiring and whatnot. If it's a struggle, probably. By the way, I wrote down your term earlier. I'm in the process of doing a book on Brandonisms. I have some Spragisms too. Go ahead. I had to write that down. That's going in the chapter of colorful language. All right. I think Eric and I could probably have a duel. Oh, I bet you. It would probably be pretty fun. Okay. Good toilet reader. Yeah, that's a separate episode. That's a separate episode.

1:05:08 One of the themes was ego and control that they talk about in this. And what gets in the way of us developing more of a who focus. And I have struggled with this. This idea, when you're starting the business and you're the brand and you're the main talking head and you're the one establishing the standards of what we're always going to do, what we're never going to do, and this is what we're about. I think the thing I've struggled with is I tend to over-index on the value of... my personality in those sales conversations, in those customer service recovery situations, my personal ability to match up with the customer and the way I do things.

1:05:52 That's been one of the biggest adjustments for me. And I can look back over my career when I owned a state farm agency, when I had a small retail business, that was kind of always a theme is no one else... And I know this is so stereotypical. It's like classic E-myth story. No one's going to be able to do it as well as I can. Right. Or I think the thing that you and I've wrestled with, again, probably me more so, you've been more quick to be like, nah, dude, we're not that important or that, you know, is the same with this business. With the podcast and everything else, it's like, will the people we hire be able to kind of emulate or... Will there be enough of a reflection of who we are and the brand and how we conduct ourselves in our consulting that we maintain the essence of what Floodlight's about and what people have come to expect from Head, Heart, and Boots and Floodlight and everything else?

1:06:43 And that really worried me for a while. But it's interesting. I think the thing that surprised me a little bit is just how easily... our team has reflected who we are. Like how natural that is when you hire the right people. You know what I'm saying? But that was the hardest thing for me to let go. But the thing is too, Chris, Floodlight could actually be better if it still has a lot of essences of a lot of other people. It doesn't have to be just you, right? It doesn't mean that there's still not a through line with a lot of Chris, a lot of Brandon, but it doesn't mean that the whole vibe Can't be slightly different, but maybe even better.

1:07:24 Yeah. But it just goes to show, it just goes to show like how much my own ego has limited, has put a ceiling on past businesses that I've had. Because, well, nobody's going to quite say it the right way. They're not going to connect with people the same way I do, da, da, da, da, da. I just think back over the other businesses I've run or I've owned. And it's like, man, if I could have gotten a hold of this sooner... I even think about, I look back at employees and team members that I've had and hired in the past where they had so much more capacity and I was the lid on them because I refused to hand over certain roles that they could have done better than me.

1:08:05 If I'm honest, I thought... You probably also, Chris, even if you didn't lose those employees, they just shut down. Exactly. Yeah. It's like, okay, I'll take my paycheck. Look, I saw that. I mean, Larry, I know this resonates with you. You know, people would kind of do, I watched them do that with Larry. He would interject and whatever, a lot of the same stuff you're talking about. And they would just like basically do the invisible throwing up of their hands and be like, yeah, great, dude, whatever fucking you want. I'll do it. It's stupid, but great. I'll do it. Yeah. Meanwhile, we're completely thwarting their talents. Yeah. 100%. And I'm still... Not just Larry, Brandon, me. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm probably notorious for it.

1:08:47 And it's challenging because you want to provide pushback. You want to provide critical thinking, all the things. But it's just this really delicate balance between, okay... But have I stopped allowing that person to give it a try? Like, do I need to control some of these elements? I found myself doing this yesterday. We had a call with our consultants and we were looking at some of the processes and stuff that the team's developing and... I was in my own head a lot of the conversation where I'm fighting. It's like, I really feel like this input's important. And though the whole time I'm like, okay, but do you need to have input here? Do you need to say anything?

1:09:27 It's fucking hard. It's like a ping pong in your head. Totally. Yeah. And I don't even... Honestly, I'm reflecting on yesterday's conversation now. And I'm like, yeah, there was probably plenty of shit in there. I just didn't need to say anything. Oh, that's true. The team's going to figure it out. Like it wasn't... Chris is like, yeah, thank goodness. Well, no, because I'm dealing with the same... I think that is where we're at as a business is we're in that process of figuring out what is letting go look like with rad people. Like with rad people. Because I've had this conscious thought too with our team of... Like, okay, I may have a marginal disagreement with the way or the tone or the methodology or something.

1:10:08 But then if I hang long enough in that pocket, I realized it was just, it was a non-issue. It was just a moot point. It was not even worth bringing up. And I'm thankful I didn't. So I'm getting better at just being like, eh, I can leave that unsaid. Like, yeah, you got to stay out of the box now. Yeah, because they're so damn smart. But I think a lot of times I jump in before the other person has a chance to process and come up with a solution, right? So... You know, I think, too, guys, we've kind of touched on startup mode a little bit today for both because we both kind of really at the point where you're growing out of that. I think you guys are ahead of us on that. But startup mode is supposed to be a very short period of time.

1:10:51 And the same skills that make entrepreneurs good at startup mode are usually the same exact things that hold them back from reaching any type of scale. Yeah. Yeah. Most owners have to either change or step aside and let somebody, let a big boy come in who's a manager and go do that. And I think we're both like in the midst of that in different ways, different degrees. Yeah. But to that same thing, we did this already with the other businesses that we grew. So now we're learning the same problems again, relearning them. We're at a different level. The learning curve is shorter, but we're still, I don't know about me at least, and Eric too, we're still having to go over similar hurdles.

1:11:33 Oh, yeah, that's right. I'm supposed to listen to these people. Oh, I had service managers for a while. I was supposed to listen to them. Oh, yeah, that's right. Now I got to listen to these people too. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're forever a work in process, right? Well, for us, because so much of what you guys are taking on internal who's, we're in the process right now of taking on external who's, vendor partners, who are going to be integral to our success. And we can no longer, I mean, I was thinking about this the other day after a meeting. We can no longer, like the problem with vendor partners, a lot of times is like, well, it's my money, so I'm going to dictate what happens.

1:12:16 You can't go into it with that mindset. You have to go into it where I'm paying just like I'm paying somebody to work for me, and I need to listen to them. Just because we're spending money with you doesn't mean that, why the fuck are we hiring somebody who's supposed to be better at us than something and then telling them what to do because we somehow think we know better in something that we don't know shit about? Yeah, that's huge. But we do it. Larry and I are guilty, very guilty of this. It's like, well, that's our money and we want you to do this. And they do the same thing as the employee. They go, all right, dude, it's your money. It's stupid. I'll spend it for you. Sure. You know, where it's like, I think Larry and I, and this is one of the things in our business planning, is like we have to take an entirely new approach to our vendor partners.

1:13:06 Yeah, that's good. Do them as team members. Yes. Yes. That's good. It reminds me of that whole 100% of zero is still zero. You know, when you're thinking about external partners. And more recently, I think for Chris and I, and this shows up in a lot of different, I think, thought patterns is, we're still developing the long-term strategy. There's all sorts of things about Chris and I's partnership and professional endeavors that there's sky's the limit. We have all sorts of things we're still exploring together and what we could potentially go after or do. And one of the things I'm trying to be more open to is this idea that I don't need to have majority control.

1:13:49 I don't need to necessarily have majority ownership. I'm trying in my own mind. trying. It's not a standard yet. Of looking at opportunities and saying, what if I wasn't in complete control? Is there still something powerful about this potential partnership or this cooperation between these two peoples, three peoples, whatever the thing is? And I'm trying to get more open-minded to what do I want from this experience? Well, I want some financial freedom opportunities. I want some displacement of liability and risk. Well, can you get the same thing from that and not own the whole thing or not control the whole thing and maybe not even be the driving influence over all the decisions that are made?

1:14:35 And the answer a lot of the time is fuck yeah. So then it's like I need to re-engineer my expectation and be more open to opportunities that don't put me in that same position that I'm in with some of my existing opportunities now where I feel like... everything falls on Chris and I, or everything falls on me in this certain lane or whatever the case may be. And it's like, holy shit, the opportunities that we could take part in all of a sudden get really expansive. Not to the point where it's chasing shiny shit, but it's like, I could do more of what I want if I partnered in this way. You know what I mean? Yeah, there was a sentence I underlined it in the book. And I think it was in chapter one or two, where he said, learn to judge your progress by the number of collaborations you have in motion.

1:15:18 Wow, that's interesting. And I was like, shit, that's really good. When you think of it in those terms, what new relationships, what new collaborations are we identifying in any given moment? What are the relationships of opportunity that we're stirring up and instigating? That's an interesting way of looking at things. Yeah, very much so. You know, one of the things that really struck me is I was, it's the truth about procrastination, how to kill it, that chapter. But I was reading the chapter takeaways in the end. And I noticed that like I actually wrote in the book, which I rarely do, but there's like this cascading effect. So it says leadership involves being clear and explicit about the vision.

1:16:01 So for the four of us, that's our job, or at least in part, as the founders, principals, owners. It might not be forever our job, but for now, that's our job. We have to get very clear. This is exactly what we want. This is how we want to do it. And then it says, it kind of cascades down to... The impact filter is the one page tool for defining the vision or goal and why it is so important. So having any, whether you use this or another planning tool to get to like, okay, well, let's hash this out. And then it cascades to asking who can help me achieve this. You know, like I think usually our default is like, let's get a goal, maybe not getting clear enough on that goal.

1:16:46 And then just saying, what do I have to do to make this goal happen? I don't know about you guys, but for Larry and I, that's our default. Like, hey, we have this idea. We want to do it. Yeah, we're going to set some maybe unclear goals around this. And then like, let's just divide tasks now. Yep. And more importantly, what sets that goal is most of the time a limitation of what I think I can and can't do. Right. Yeah. Right. So you're going to launch right out of the gate going for a target that may be only a mere... fraction of a reflection of what it could be if you started by identifying just clearly, what is it that I want to experience, succeed in, goal, whatever.

1:17:28 Not what are my capabilities, but what do I want? And then find people that have the capabilities. Yep. Yeah. That was all the crux of the book. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of times we will, we will scale the goal mentally only to what we feel our capabilities are. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Because we just can't imagine somebody else doing it with us or for us. Right. Yeah. I had a, I don't, I can't remember where we started hearing this the first time, but there was somebody in our sphere that would say you have not because you ask not. They said it all the time. Yeah. And I think Chris definitely landed with him at some point. He's become more aggressive about asking. It's just random people for random things.

1:18:10 This outreach to this person to see if they'll be on the show. You know what I mean? He's just gotten really diligent about like, screw it. You have not because he asked not. You might as well ask. And I think what's interesting is in context of this book, this whole idea of the who not how is... I think there's this pattern of increasing the quality and the level of expectation you have with your ask as you do this more. So what I mean by that is, is that, you know, let's say I think of this thing that I want to do, you know, and I look at it normally from this perspective of can Chris and I handle that? What is it going to require from Chris and I in order for us to do this thing? And I think a lot of that is based on the fact that I'm afraid to ask someone else, right?

1:18:55 Because I make assumptions on whether or not there's a win in it for them or that I bring enough value to the relationship or the partnership or we do or whatever the case may be. And it's crazy because it's like, dude, when you just ask... I'm always surprised by how often somebody is willing to engage in the conversation because there's a little bit of a thought that they had as well. Right? But both parties are over here just making a ton of assumptions about what the other person's thinking instead of just coming up and saying, look, hey, I'm just going to toss this out here. Yeah. I'm not pushing. I'm not even saying it's a thing. But hey, what if? Have you ever thought about? I mean, shit, you guys and us, we've had conversations like that.

1:19:36 And I'm always blown away by how often people are like, yeah, screw it. Let's have a chat. We're not... Nobody's committing to anything. Let's just ask some questions and see where we can go with this. And holy hell, man, there's more partnerships, more cooperation waiting because the audience is thinking the same shit I am. They're not asking. They're not bringing it up out of fear. And we both want the same thing. It's interesting you say that, Brandon, because I read this several years ago. I was reading like Forbes magazine one day. I was just sitting and reading in the backyard. Were you in the hair salon, Eric? Yeah. Yes. I still... He's got all the hair. I'm the only one with hair left. That's man standing.

1:20:17 Let's get a perm. Yeah. I've already got the Irish Afro. I don't need a problem. Anyway, I'm sitting there reading and it said something like, you know, how they have these top 10 traits of billionaires or whatever, right? So I'm reading this list. And number one on the list, Brandon, was that people who tend to be, have reached billionaire status, their number one trait for their success is they leverage the value and experience of others in collaboration. Yeah. They partner way more than the rest of us. They're always looking to partner. And that stuck with me. And look, I mean, as I'm aging, I'm opening to that.

1:21:00 But like, you know, it's just like, it's not my default. My default is to do. Yeah. Well, and I think it all comes back to that limited perspective of, you know, there's only so many pieces of the pie. Like just constantly looking at it from that perspective. I mean, I still just, you know, I mean, kind of beaten an example to death. But, you know, if the right group was out there, the right product, the right concept, and we felt like we could offer something special... I think I need to be open to the fact, well, maybe 51% is not necessary. What if it was 25% and it's one of 10 things that we're doing in collaboration with really solid foundational people? The return long-term is going to be everything everybody wants, right?

1:21:44 It's just this really interesting limited perspective that I tend to start with by default. Is that the ego or is it just control that you want to have? I mean, your ego is part of it. Yeah. I think it's both, right? Yeah. And I think another trait too is just it's required as open-mindedness. You know, like I, we have this buddy, a real estate buddy of mine that we met with who's young, very ambitious, and it's... One of the things I've noticed when I talked to him about making money and investments... In fact, I had another conversation with him recently. He referred to making money as a game. And he just went through a huge life change, divorce and all this kind of stuff. And so all of that's been kind of reorganized to some degree.

1:22:26 And I asked how he was doing. He's like, honestly, I'm kind of excited. He's like, I've had this massive change in movement in my balance sheet. And he said, I'm sort of excited to see how quickly... I can rebuild it and get beyond where I was. Because he sees it as a game. And when you talk to him about opportunities he's looking at, he's so dispassionate about any of the details. It's just he's looking at it through this open-minded lens of how could this work? How could this benefit me? How could I benefit them? He's less passionate about... his role in it, what percentage, all the things, and just looking at the opportunity as a whole and saying, what's the best way to do this thing?

1:23:11 And I think there's some wisdom in that. I think somehow it relates back to this. It's rather than seeing how we interact in that thing and what's my role in it, it's looking at it more globally and with more of an open mind. I've referenced my friend that I cycle with that's so successful. And this probably hits all four of us. But we were talking about partnership one day. And he was like, I will do 49% to 1%. I will do 51% to 100%. I will not do 50-50. Because now I have to sit and like capitulate and, you know, go through the whole process of decision making is too slow.

1:23:52 He's like, so in business, I either have to own very little and I just let it go. I make my investment and it will make me money or I control everything. Right. So he like his whole thing was like, I have all these businesses where I own 10 percent. Like, I don't care. Like, you know, like passive investments. Yeah. And, and, you know, and his whole thing was like, if I'm going to own the company, I'm going to own the company. Like, I'm going to get my share. Right. So it's not so much about the 50-50 partnership for me. It's more about he has all these companies that he owns a fraction of, and he's totally good with that. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm not on the board.

1:24:33 He's like, I just own small bits of lots of other businesses. And then he has obviously a couple of businesses that he owns outright. And so what Chris was saying, very just analytical about the whole thing. No emotion. Yeah. There's power in it for certain. Yeah. All right. Well, gents, I got, we got to land the plane cause I got a coaching call in six minutes. Let's do it. Let's do it. What are we... I'm going to go do a how. You're going to go execute on the how. Yeah. Okay. Well, do we want to wrap this one up? Do we want some summarization here or do we need it? Yeah, I love that. It was a great book. I enjoyed it. Totally. Surround yourself or hire people that are better and smarter at you with the things that they need to be in and go do what you're best at.

1:25:20 Nothing more. There you go. Yeah. No, I think that's right on the dot, dude. So, yeah. The who... not how. Read it. Do yourself a favor. If you lead a team or building a business, read it. It's a powerful book. It's literally changing the way I look at just about everything in relationship to my journey. That's for sure. Yeah. Okay, boys. All right, gentlemen, it's been a pleasure. We'll see you. We're out. Good deal. Later. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart, and Boots. And if you're enjoying the show, but you love this episode, please hit follow. Formerly known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever.

1:26:03 It all helps. Thanks for listening.