Ep 86 - "Building Passion Back Into The Business"

0:07 Welcome back to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brandon. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. Man, I love this industry. That might be a bullish expenditure, which is what I was trying to explain to you. Guys, for those of you that just jumped into that, and I don't know if Joel will keep it in there or not, but that was negotiations happening. And what I attempted to do was slide something in that I want right at the last minute before hitting record so that Chris couldn't tell me no. Nah, I don't know. You have business partners. That's a methodology you can attempt to deploy. I'm just suggesting.

0:47 I like to buy new shiny things too. And some of them have disappointed me. Well, that is true. I've got many things. And in fact, the sad story is probably 80% of the shiny things that I buy end up disappointing me, right? Yeah. If not immediately, not too long. Within a very short honeymoon period. Yeah. It doesn't take a long time. Hey, good. Yeah. How are you? Welcome. Glad you could join us, Chris. I was just saying I really enjoy this new podcast setup. For those of you that are listening and you haven't made your way over to our YouTube channel, it's evolving. It's an evolution. We're a small business. We don't have designers on our staff that are just constantly leveling up and we show up to a brand new completed studio.

1:32 It's a work in progress. That would be pretty sweet. We do actually have a designer on the team. It's just... They do a lot of other things too. That's right. But we have a custom-made podcast table that's really freaking cool that you found. Oh, man. Yeah, this thing is great. Got a new backdrop on the way. Yeah, we'll be updating that in the next few weeks, I think. And we got some comfortable chairs coming that'll swivel and have a sit-up a little bit higher. But anyway, it's really fun. New things are fun. That's right. Let's rock some sponsors and then... You had a line on a show topic that I'm actually kind of psyched about. I think it'll be good. Yeah, dude. Me too. Me too. Yeah. I'm going to go liftify, man. So just, you just hold your horses.

2:12 Okay. Did I say that right? Because just for those of you that are listening, Chris has been correcting my understanding and interpretation of old sayings. So we started the morning with, for all intensive purposes. Well, lo and behold, that is bass-ackwards. That is wrong. That is incorrect. It is not. for all intensive purposes. It is for all intents and purposes. Right? And you know, listen, you have very few. I will commit to identifying your idiosyncrasies when I notice them. Hey, careful with the... And I'll try to pick the right timing where you're in a position to receive that feedback.

2:52 That's right. My ego is fragile. Timing matters for all of us. You know what I'm not digging very much? This new camera angle makes my arms look smaller than yours. Yeah. I think we're going to scrap the whole studio. I'm noticing that and I really appreciate it. Yeah, see, before I was winning. I thought you did that on purpose. No, I don't. I didn't. And I am not happy with it. We're all intense. You have very few of those idiosyncrasies. And you know what? If you say it fast enough, I think probably 90% of the time, people don't even notice it anyway. So they're like, oh yeah, for all intents and purposes is what he just said. I would bet that people don't know. Most. Maybe I'm the only Neanderthal in the group. Maybe you just added some value there. I think that we've just trained. We've just conducted some training. I'm going to have to hit the gym a little bit harder.

3:33 I'm really intimidated by this new camera angle. I think that every time I see your biceps, I'm like, God, I need to catch up a little bit here. All right, let's get into this because people are like, guys, I do have an hour trip between jobs, but I don't want to listen to you. STFU. Yeah. STFU, that's right. All right, let's get into this. Hey, Liftify, you guys know that they've been a key sponsor of the show for quite some time. And you guys have also heard us talk at great length that that partnership has to be a two-way street, meaning there has to be real value for our listeners and our clients. for somebody to be on that roster. And Liftify, as you guys know, we are huge fans. They produce results. They do it consistently. It's not voodoo magic. They have a system, a process that you can plug into your organization.

4:17 They will chase those five-star Google reviews for you. And then of course, as you ramp those up, as you start getting the actual number of reviews that you've earned, then the SEO applications, the findability, the searchability of your organization just skyrockets. And then the key piece that Zach and the team constantly preach is this idea that you need to have them consistently and they need to be relevant and fresh. Meaning we can't do a push for 90 days, get a bunch of reviews and then let it hang for the rest of the year. Google recognizes that is not of value in terms of how people are seeing your business. So again, liftify.com forward slash floodlight.

4:57 All sorts of opportunities there for you to get that onboarded in a way that'll start skyrocketing what's happening with your brand online. Yeah. And then CNR Magazine, we've been ringing this bell for a while now. And we really do. We like CNR. We're advertisers in CNR. We put our money where our mouth is. And we really enjoy Michelle and the team. I actually... I just saw an article by Marcy Richardson. Did you see that on Culture? Company Culture? It's a really good person to reach out to. I guarantee they got some really interesting stuff happening there in the South. She is one of the leaders at the helm there. So talked about some of their culture practices internally. It's really great. So this stuff is relevant.

5:38 Michelle has a way of connecting with talented thought leaders in the industry and getting them on board. And so she's got a great stable of writers from all different companies and areas of the industry that produce content. So this isn't just rando content. Content that they're buying. This isn't stock photo. Kind of content that they're putting out. It's really good. It's really in touch with what's happening in the industry. Whether you're a supplier, you're recruiting, whatever, it could be a great place to advertise. Very cost-effective for us. We've seen a lot of results, a lot of audience growth on our podcast from our advertising on CNR. And also too, it's just a great way to stay up.

6:18 She's scooping stories all the time. In fact, it was funny. It was funny. We were having a conversation with a really prominent industry executive and he was acting all tight-lipped about... I think I mentioned this on a previous podcast, but telling us about an acquisition that was just getting ready to be announced. And literally like five minutes before the call, I saw it on my LinkedIn feed from Michelle and CNR. They were breaking that story. That's right. They were already all over it. That felt pretty important. Anyhow. So there we go. There's our sponsors. Check them out. So today... Yeah, this is an interesting one. Okay, so kind of setting the table. So where did this come from? How did I come back to this? Because I have a notes file, like probably many of you in my iPhone, where it's like, oh yeah, I should write this down.

7:04 Come back to that, yeah. And then this past week, I was having a conversation with one of our larger clients and they're frustrated. There's some frustration right now with turnover. And probably everybody listening to this can relate to what that feels like. Maybe you're struggling with it right now. Maybe you're not. Maybe you're not. But I think there's a sense from them that they can't quite find out why. They feel like they're doing the right things. They're respectful to their people. They're paying people competitively. All the things that you want to check all those boxes. It's like, God, why are we struggling? Why are we losing people? And so on the heels of that conversation, there's been a number of other conversations I've been in this week all around this topic.

7:45 And I went back to our notes and I found this quote from Jordan Peterson. that I heard on a podcast a few weeks ago. And I just think, man, it's so good. So Jordan Peterson, he said this, and I tried to get it verbatim. I listened to it like 14 times, tried to record it as close as I could. What you want to do is build a company on the intrinsic alignment of interests. Each person pursuing a goal that they intrinsically value... that they're willing to work for, dedicate themselves to, and sacrifice themselves for. And then you want each of these goals to be serving a superordinate goal. A superordinate goal that unites and moves the entire team ahead.

8:28 Then you don't have to use coercion or manipulation to motivate people. That last sentence, that is what really grabbed me, man. I was thinking about that coercion or manipulation to motivate people... There's so many different ways we could break this down and talk about it. But what does that mean, coercion and manipulation? Because I think we do that. And I think in some ways, that is part of the playbook in business. Okay, coercion and manipulation have a really negative sounding connotation. But what is it? Well, I think part of it is it's carrot and stick. Yeah. It's like, hey, you do this, this is going to happen. You don't do this, this is going to happen, right? And that's what we call often accountability.

9:11 Yeah. Right? And so I think what he's saying is, this is an ideal target that he just described. Are we ever going to get there entirely with all of our people? Probably not. Probably not. But I think what he's saying is, in the highest performing teams, if you look behind the curtain... What you have is a tremendous amount of alignment between what the people, the parts of the team really want. Not what they say they want so they can get the raise, not what they say they want or like so that they don't get fired. But these people really, they have something that they are engaged with.

9:53 that is personally satisfying to them. Yeah. And that all of those people or a majority of those people, right? Probably more realistic language. Yeah. Are... Never going to be 100%. Their things that they're driven by are aligned with the vision and direction of the company and what the company is trying to do. And that when you have that, that baseline accountability, these accountability structures of don't do this, don't do that. We always do this. We never do that. The punishment, the write-ups, it becomes unnecessary. And I think we've all seen...

10:35 Examples of this. There's some iconic examples of this kind of alignment. Well, and I think the thing is, right, is when we start a concept from a quote, we need to remember that in those cases, most of the time what's being communicated is the pinnacle. Yeah. Like in best case scenario, right? Like if in a test tube, completely unaffected by outside, this is what you would ultimately shoot for. This is the aspirational goal. Right. Right. Just for relevance, though, the reality is you're not going to necessarily hit that. The idea is index heavier on the intrinsic, building into the system, that it creates this engagement and loyalty to it intrinsically inside the employee so that there's less of a need for these other elements.

11:22 I totally agree with you. And I also think, though, we all have these familiar icons that we see. And I think as... owners and leaders in service companies where we do this really hard work and it's hard to find people that want to do this kind of work and all that kind of stuff. It's just difficult for us to make the connection sometimes to companies like Apple. I think Apple at least has been a type of example of this. There's other companies that I admire like Bridgewater Associates, Ray Dalio, one of the most successful investment funds of all time. Amazon. These kind of companies, there's such an allure and draw to what they're about, what they accomplish, what their vision is for how they affect their industries. I think they tap into some of this.

12:03 Programmers want to work at Apple because of what it means, what they get to do, what they get to create. Apple can get any talent that they want, period, because there's... there's something special that all of them are charging for. They want to be a part of. Now the question is, can we do that in our industry? I think we can. I think there's examples. You know, I think some of the conversations, and we don't work in this business, and we've never seen it firsthand, but we've seen stuff on LinkedIn and so forth. Like Watley's business, Emergency Packout Co., right? So California, they're pursuing the hug. there's a level of focus and intentionality and drive across the team to make their customers feel good in a time that otherwise feels pretty crappy.

12:46 Sure. Contents, right? Yeah. They're a contents business. Their task is to earn the hug is what they rally around. And it's like, oh my god, that's... That feels good. There's a certain feeling that they're chasing as a company for their customer and for them. I think that's an example of what we're talking about is if you get people that really buy into that, then I'm sure they still have behavior issues. They still have noncompliance, people that don't meet the standard and there's got to be corrective actions. There's still accountability. There's still accountability issues. And it sounds like they're playing from that Peterson playbook. So I think one of the things that's a little interesting here, and you've tied into it before with, you know, in terms of leading above the line, right?

13:32 That whole Dethmer piece. And part of what they talk about, like the five levels of motivation, right? And we get down deep, right? Into that, like not just intrinsic, but then there's these next tiers, like the super elite tier. And you get into play and you get into love. Yeah. And I think that at first glance, when people listen to that word or hear it, there's a bunch of knee-jerk responses to that. But I think what they're really kind of the heart of the matter is this idea of getting better at identifying people's natural wirings, their skill sets, those things that when they do it, there's a level of motivation behind it that really has nothing to do with you saying, there's elements of what you and I do that we like.

14:23 And then there's elements, right? Just like with any business that have to be done in order for you to win, in order for you to succeed. But they're not necessarily at the top of my motivational chart. It's like, this has to be done. And to a certain extent, you and I are just buying our time before it's like, hey, when can this be delegated? Because we don't enjoy it. It's not a highlight for us, you know? Yeah, and I think it's what we're discovering, it's even bigger than delegation. It's like, as we started hiring additional consultants and building out our team and our creative team and so forth... you start to see that thing that Peterson is talking about. Scott, for example, is one of the people we're talking about. He is intrinsically driven in ways that you and I are not.

15:04 It's almost like the idea of delegation, of getting this off my plate. No, it's even more powerful than that. Because really, it's giving. It's giving somebody something that they want to. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's like, instead of, hey, this is the job I need you to do. It's like, hey, you love this type of thing. I'm going to give you an opportunity to do that and make money at that. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I'm laughing right now if you're not watching this on video. Because literally, we make jokes about this. Scott was on our team for like two weeks. And one of the first things that he did while we were onboarding new clients for him was... He wrote this 90-page commercial complex large loss operations manual.

15:47 Just to give you some insight into the kinds of things that motivate him and how we were so excited when he came onto the team. Because just like what you're saying, that's his own initiative. He saw the room... And the freedom to do a thing he enjoyed. And what was it? It was create this massive operations manual. You know, that obviously something we share with our clients and our partners. So anyways, you're right. Like, it's not just delegation. And we have to remember that, right? Because part of it is like, I feel like I don't want to do that. So I'm almost looking at it like, I want to drop that on somebody else. And if we really are doing this correctly, the idea would be you offload something for you you don't enjoy and technically you'd be giving it to that person that no, that's actually some juice for them.

16:34 Now, it's not all gumdrops and lollipops. There's a reality that not every task is going to fit that bill and we can't renegotiate roles and job titles to fit every Tom, Dick and Harry's personality that we bring on the team. Yeah. But I think what happens, and we see teams that are really skilled at this, and I think you and I are learning to get more skilled in it, is that when you're building out your team, come from the perspective of, okay, if I have this role, and this is this list of tasks and responsibilities that this job title has, and I want to be really clear about that, this job title and role has, then when you hire... it's your job to do that in such a way that you tease out in someone, oh, they have that natural wiring.

17:21 They're a good fit for this, not just because they applied or because they've done it before, but because it actually, the majority of it or a good chunk of it, right? And maybe the curious question is, what's that percentage? How much of the tasks have to be in alignment with that for you to be falling in the right direction? But the whole, anyways, I'm blabbing. The point is just like, if you interview somebody and identify that skill set, the natural wiring, when you place them in that seat, there's not necessarily the need for carrots and sticks because a big chunk of what they do throughout the day is fun for them. Yeah. You know, relatively speaking. Yeah. Part of it is... looking a level deeper when we're interviewing people.

18:03 Yeah. You know, all of us have, I mean, most of us have learned or via YouTube or via college or past, you know, mentors or whatever, like a behavioral interview style. Right. Most of us would agree that's probably the most effective way to interview people, you know, hear how they've handled certain situations in the past and so forth and examples and stories and whatnot. Yeah. But then there's also listening between the lines. So I was on an interview with one of our clients this morning with a potential salesperson. And one of the things that I always am trying to listen for is, well, first of all, do they like sales? Is this something that they're intrinsically motivated to get out and stir things up and to create and to meet new people and all those things?

18:45 But I'm also conscious of the fact that some of the best, most successful career salespeople I've met are not what we think of when we think of salespeople. We have this charismatic... picture of what a salesperson should look like, sound like. And yet some of the most successful salespeople have made the most money and moved the needle the most. They just don't have often the persona that you would expect them to have being super gregarious and whatever image you have of salespeople in your mind, really attractive, super high energy, dah, dah, dah. Do you index heavily on the very attractive part because you yourself have a sales background?

19:29 I always wonder. I feel like the attractive in quotes part comes up a lot when you describe salespeople. And I just can't tell what part is a personal agenda. I've just always presented those really attractive people. It's like those lucky sons of bitches. Yeah. No, everybody knows what I mean. I mean, we all are drawn to attractive people, let's face it. So I'd never hurt somebody's sales. Yeah, I don't. Yeah, I certainly don't think I'd make the door shut. Without the personality or character to match it though, right? That's where the... where us lesser folks can win, right? Where we can compete. That's right. But it's interesting. This person that we were interviewing was very green, very nervous, not a lot of background.

20:10 But one of the things I was hearing was the character. Mm-hmm. And there's certain character traits that I think help salespeople be disproportionately effective. Yeah. Where they're really grounded in care for others. Right? When you combine deep care and concern for others with an energy and drive to create, like that... Even if somebody has... maybe a more flat personality, not as gregarious and out there, but when there's this deep care for others' interests and this hunger drive to learn, to grow, to be the best version of themselves, you're hearing those kinds of things.

20:56 Like this guy was talking about how he felt like he was... kind of could have been more intentional with athletics and stuff in high school. And he had some talent, but he didn't put the effort in. And he discovered this when he was 19 and started working out every day and developed those disciplines and how he has some regret that, man, I wish I had to take this more seriously. Those kind of things, you hear this internal drive for growth. That's that intrinsic level of stuff that... You can plug that into your business. Yeah. And a lot's gonna happen. Yeah, right. You cast the right vision for somebody like that. And there's things that they're going to intrinsically grab onto that are satisfying for them.

21:38 And you start building your company with people like that. Right. And it's interesting. As I say that out loud, I identify those two traits. I think, oh my gosh, right. Imagine if you could build a company. of people that have a deep concern for others and an internal drive to learn and grow. If you just focused on finding those two traits, who cares what those people look like, who cares how charismatic and fun and high energy they are, what could you do with a team of people? Yeah. that have a deep concern for others and a desire to grow and become better. In their own lanes, right? In their own lanes, whatever it is. You can have the nerdy people.

22:18 You can have the quiet people. You can have the folks that are very linear thinking, the creative folks, all of it. It's like, boy, there's a lot you can do with just those two character traits, right? All right, Head, Heart & Boots listeners. Wanted to stop here just a moment and thank our underwriting sponsor, Bloodlight Consulting Group. As all of you know, right? You know, Brandon and I, this is our passion project, Head Heart and Boots is. But it's also a way more and more that our consulting clients find us. And in effect, they interview us, right? Those of you who've been listening to the show for a while, you get to know who we are, right? What we're about. So if Head Heart and Boots is valuable to you, one of the best things you can do is share it with your friends.

23:00 And it's been incredible to watch just the audience grow. And we still get text messages from many of you about shows that you really like and impacted you. So that's number one. And please keep doing that. Many of you have been huge advocates of the show. We also just want to remind you too, if you're a restoration company owner and you're interested in a partner in your growth, you want some help building out systems, developing your leadership teams, helping set up the infrastructure for you to scale and grow into the company that you're trying to build. That's what we do. That's what we do is we come alongside restoration company leaders and We help equip them and we help support them in that growth trajectory. So if you're looking for that, go to floodlightgrp.com.

23:42 Potentially, we could be a great match for each other. Another way that we really do serve our client base and our sphere of influence is through our premier partners. We work really hard to vet those folks that we believe bring a level of value to the industry, that it can really be leveraged in a way to have a sincere, positive impact on your business. We take that very seriously. The folks that we create those kind of ongoing partnerships, that's not a check the box kind of scenario. It's we really see strategic alignment in the value that they bring. We see value in the way that their leadership teams and their partners are developed. And we've done very sincere work of ensuring that these folks that we introduce our clients and our sphere to can actually create vetted value. So go check out floodlightgrp.com forward slash premier slash partners and see if there's some folks on there that you can connect with and begin developing some other resources to support your growth and your business.

24:34 It's interesting because I think at least this is happening with me. So I don't want to place judgment or assumptions on other people listening. But I hear that. Am I oversimplifying? Well, I don't even know that you're oversimplifying. But I hear what you're saying. I'm like, oh, gosh, yeah, that would be great, Chris. That I build an entire company of people that are self-driven and intrinsically motivated. However, you're not wrong. I think the challenge maybe or where that gap can be is that our younger workforce, and I don't even mean that necessarily by age. I just mean the newer workforce maybe is a better way to maybe think about that. There's just been a life skills development gap.

25:17 I think part of it is, and I don't want to freaking backseat drive this concept, but It's hard for me to understand why exactly, but there's just a large group of people entering the workforce that in broad life experience is lacking. It's just lacking. And so when they come into a system, they don't even know how to be a good employee. And it's not necessarily a hit on them. It's not necessarily a lack of drive or caring. I think it's interpreted that way often. But I just think there's this element of our role as leaders and business owners is changing a little bit to the extent of how much energy or how much development or commitment we have to give to creating a system where we can help people identify what you're talking about.

26:06 So if we can design an interview process that allows us to unpack and see some of the raw clay, the raw potential... then I think ultimately part of your job then once they're on the team is to begin to steward that relationship and continue to point them and move them into the seats that most align with how they will intrinsically be motivated. Now hear me here. We are such huge proponents of not negotiating roles and titles by people's personalities. That's not what I'm saying because that'll be totally counter. But what I'm saying is... You're saying the development path. It's a development path. And it doesn't have to be linear. Meaning if they come in as a tech...

26:46 Don't pigeonhole into them staying in that field operations role. You may accidentally have realized, right? Like when you interviewed them, a lot of self-accountability, a lot of motivation, just excitement to be on a team and get started. Great. And you start them in a tech position. Well, then part of your cadence with a one-on-one is to begin to learn more in-depth knowledge about your person. Now, the interesting thing is, is that we have Joey Coleman coming up. soon, right? Oh, this afternoon. Yeah. So we're going to talk to him this afternoon. When you guys have the chance to hear it, we'll be several weeks, at least a couple weeks out, I think. But the point is, he's going to get into some of this. And Joey, he's going to rock.

27:27 But my point is, is that we do have some... stewarding responsibilities to help our people identify these things because I think many of them won't know. They couldn't tell you, hey, I'm passionate about XYZ. I love this thing. This is what I'm designed to do. It would make it a whole hell of a lot easier during the interview process. But just think about it. Us as business owners and key leaders struggle to be able to put our finger on that all the time. Yeah. let alone someone that maybe this is only their first or second go at some form of career or formal job. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I hear you, man. I think sometimes... So part of this whole equation is, I think sometimes we're drawn...

28:07 either one to people like ourselves. We talked about that as a problem. We're trying to recruit people that are just like us because we've been successful in our role. Whether you're a department leader or an owner or whatever, it's like we are the successful prototype. And so we want to hire more of us. More of me. And everything will work out. But I think too, we have these archetypes in our head of what a successful person in a particular role looks like. Yeah. And I think, and we've talked about this before too, the value of an after action review, even on good jobs. Yeah. Sometimes we don't know why we're winning. Right. We make a lot of assumptions about why we're winning. And I think maybe... part of the answer is what Jordan Peterson's pointing to is that the real thing that motivates success and the success we're having in our teams is much deeper than the personalities and stuff that we're normally looking for in interviews.

28:59 Yeah. And I would say in my experience with salespeople, again, that's often been true. Yeah. That we're looking for a certain kind of individual and when they don't check all those boxes... We're like, I'm not feeling it. But we walked right past some of these golden attributes that potentially have the power to drive much more success than the good looks or the clever quips and how whatever salesy person that they are. I'm going to challenge you a little bit here. I don't know if it's a challenge. Let's give somebody some tactical ways to think about what we're talking about.

29:41 Because it does seem a little too far, like 45,000 feet. It's a great concept. I get it. Love it, actually. But how do we find this stuff out? And I know you're the question guy, right? Yeah. We were talking to some clients the other day. So one of the things that I've learned... Actually, we were problem solving with a client the other day. And one of the things I had mentioned to them is I'm putting on my crisp brain right now. And I've got three or four questions I need to ask you, basically. So what are the questions? Let's say in a one-on-one environment, And if you've heard many of our shows, the leading by walking around environment. Yeah. What are some of the questions we can be asking people to unpack this? Because again, let's make the assumption not everyone comes preloaded with the ability to communicate it.

30:24 Yeah. That we need to help them find it and figure it out, right? Not only so that we can lead them more optimally, but so that they can get more excited about the moves that they'll be making in our organization. Yeah. What are those questions to dig that out? Yeah. What really matters to you? If we right now tomorrow as a company, we could afford to pay you $100,000 a year to do whatever really, really matters to you, what would that be? What if you could create the perfect role where you're spending all your time on what matters to you the most? Yeah. What would that look like? As you ask those questions, are you fearful that once you open that door or that you're opening some door... That you're going to get the wrong answer?

31:06 Yeah. Yeah, or just that once you start opening the door to those kinds of questions, are you concerned that if you can't deliver almost immediately on this package that they communicate to you, that you're going to lose their motivation or lose their engagement? I think in the past I have been. Mm-hmm. I think my natural instinct is, yeah, to be afraid of their answer. Because if it doesn't somehow align with where I'm going or what we're trying to do. Yeah. Or what the company needs. Yeah. Or what the company needs right now. Yeah. Yeah. That's going to become a negative for them to verbalize that and not to have it somehow... For us not to somehow answer that desire.

31:46 And I've also seen... We've talked about Joey... And the whole media director thing that we created at our last company. That kind of question is what led to us having a full-time videographer on our team that really became a big differentiator for our brand and our local market and was super satisfying for him and an amazing role. And we couldn't do it immediately. Yeah, that's true. So what do you do to offset that, you think? Oftentimes, there's a way to leverage that desire for... in the short term in small ways to give them an outlet for that. I think what it is, it forces us as leaders to actually cultivate a relationship with our people.

32:32 And what do you do in relationship, right? Relationships are reciprocal. It's like, hey, gosh, if that's where you really want to head, here's what I need from you now. But here's what I could also do for you now. It's like, I think you can engage in that negotiation of... That's really amazing that you're so passionate about that. How do you think we could fold that into the current role we have you in? Yeah. Because I can't... I need you. I need you doing this thing also. Yeah. But what do you think would be a step towards that direction that we could equip you with How could we allow you to nurture that desire while still having you be a rock star in this current role? Yeah. No, I think that's a good line of questions, right?

33:14 I think when I hear you say that, there's two things that are happening. One is you're keeping that door open, meaning I didn't ask you that so that when you... did provide the answer. There was no substance to it. And though you're being realistic about, let's be clear about what I mean here and about what this looks like for us to partner and head this direction together. Yeah, I think there's some key elements there. It's interesting. I think an example might be, I'm just thinking about a couple of the interviews we've had over the last couple of days. So some of you know, and by the way, if you don't know this, please, Spread word to your network, to people in your sphere. If there's a business leader, somebody from our industry with an industry background that you respect, you admire, you really respect the way they behave, the way they've carried themselves, the successes that they've achieved, please point them in our direction.

34:02 We are actively working. looking to add a team member, another senior consultant to our staff. That being said, boy, are we fortunate. We've had some really rad interviews over the last couple days. I feel so honored that this caliber of people want to potentially be a part of our team. So anyways, we're having a discussion with somebody. And one of the things that kind of came out on their own accord, and I don't think it really aligned necessarily with the question we asked, they just talked about how much they actually like the teaching training aspect. And for those of you that have heard us talk about this before, there's a very big difference between coaching, consulting, and training. There's three different activities and behaviors and training. There's different skill sets that you deploy in each of those.

34:44 But anyways, my point was that they talked very openly about their excitement around training and teaching. And of course, we're listening for that because you and I both know that we need those folks on our team because part of what we want to continue to challenge ourselves to do is create really high-end content and curriculum for our people, for our clients. And so we heard that. And then I immediately, my brain starts strategizing, okay, well, if we bring them on, this is how we could deploy that. This is how we would partner with them, right? For them to stay in that lane as often as possible. But then how do we segue or communicate where these other expectations are that they... And then I think part of what you and I do in that process too is we're asking questions to identify, are we going to ask you to be outside of that lane too much?

35:28 And if we are, then you and I have a hard decision to make because essentially we can't give them what they ultimately would want or could be successful in. In this particular case, I think we can't, but you know what I'm saying. Yeah. I think it's just a new way of thinking about our business. And a lot of conversation is happening within... all employers and leaders right now of how do we connect with this new generation? Because they see things differently. They experience things differently. They want different things for themselves. And I think some of the bedrock of that is that they've watched their parents, do this whole nose to the grindstone thing for 30 years and then have fun and then experience rewards.

36:08 Yeah. Suffer silently, basically lay down your own life for your pay for your kids college and then buy the nice RV for your spouse and then go enjoy yourselves in your golden years or what are supposed to be golden years. And then we've watched them all get diabetes and heart disease and, and struggle to walk around because they've spent themselves, uh, on their career. And not necessarily being rewarded from that experience. Maybe financially to a certain extent. Sure. Yeah. But I think there's that... A lot of the upcoming generation is like, no, no, no, no, no. None of us are guaranteed those golden years. They've seen that play out. Yeah. None of us are guaranteed to enjoy it or even have the money at the end of it.

36:49 Market crashes and all this kind of craziness that they've seen. And so I think that's part of it is how do I create a life in conjunction with my work And then I think also we were just talking with, well, in one of our workshops, how this generation is so accustomed to these points of affirmation. Yeah. All the time, constantly. I made this post about this thing. I put this picture out. Yeah. I got 25 likes from my friends. I got 14 comments on that thing. There's these points of affirmation and feedback that they're accustomed to getting all the time. All the time. It's constant. Every day. Yeah. And then they go into a work environment where we're like, just do the job.

37:29 Yeah. Like, do a good job and you'll be eligible to earn your bonus and your annual pay raise and just do what we hired you to do. Why do you need all the pats on the back? We don't say that out loud because we kind of understand that. But I think we just haven't learned as leaders how to lead this new generation. Yeah. We were accustomed to leading people that just knew they had to put their time in. Yeah. And it's interesting because if you think about it from a social media perspective, right, wrong, or indifferent, it's kind of irrelevant, right? It just is, those elements that just are. I think from a social media world or perspective, I think that we need to also come to grips with the fact that they are hearing on a consistent cadence that they do not have to succumb and make sacrifices just to do what they think the community or culture says they should do.

38:22 Even though, if we're honest about it, they're just doing some other version of it. But think about that. From a social media perspective, they're hearing constantly, do you. You do you. You be you. Find what you're passionate about. There's a way to make money, a way to thrive. There's a group, a community, a something that aligns with who you are, just you being you. So they're hearing that, let's call it 23 out of the 24 hours a day. And then they come into your institution and really hear none of that. They hear, just do as I say, do what you're told, do what the job title says, right? Like this very counter. And so I think one of the realities that we're dealing with as leaders is, guys, we have to learn how to meet them.

39:07 Like you can't act as if you're going to build an organization that's so counterculture. Mm-hmm. That people somehow are going to just switch teams. They're not going to make that. They're not going to bridge that gap. We've got to do something in the way that we're teaching and communicating with our people that does align with that message. Because it's a powerful message. We got to be careful of time. But I was just thinking about... We had a really cool discussion yesterday. Just totally friend to friend. Industry friends. We were talking to Mark Springer. And man, I know probably a lot of our listeners have seen him on other podcasts or maybe had some exchange with him as part of his leadership with RIA and things like that.

39:48 I was just blown away by the caliber of individual that I felt like he portrayed. There was just so much humility, so much calm, demeanor, consistent, just very confident, but in all the right ways, not that weird, ego-driven way. is he was talking about the early years. Anybody that knows anything about fleet, holy crud. They are jamming, right? Part of a massive M&A movement. They are growing leaps and bounds, dumb numbers. I won't talk about those. That's for Mark's words. But... The reality of it is, is that even where they started, before they became the foundation of an M&A platform, they were winning.

40:33 And they were winning at a very high level. And in my book, what I've seen often is that that happens because of who's at the helm. Yeah. And the team they built around them intentionally. That's it. Like when we were asking him questions, one of the first areas he went was his excitement was... This is the key. His excitement about his role in building the team. Yep. Building the team. And he said it like four times in the conversation. Building teams and executing. Building teams and executing. That was his thing. So it's like I hear that and I go, okay, well, I know where his juice is. I know what lane he wants to be in. And he clearly has identified that. And then he communicated to you that some of the stuff he's had to do over the last four, five, six years as part of this strategy is it's taking him sometimes out of that lane.

41:22 And he's talked about the toll of that. It has an emotional toll, a physical toll on you. Anyways, point being, it's like, okay, again, we're not going to go into numbers. Listen to stuff he does. He's been fantastically successful. Yeah. Level. levels that most of us won't comprehend. And the reality of it is because he found the lane that he was passionate about, that he was intrinsically driven by and he stayed in that lane. And he built a team around him so that he could continue to be in that lane and focus on that thing. And you can see the results. And so I think part of what I guess I'm going with that is You guys, even as leaders, we're not going to be all things to our people. It doesn't even matter if you're the owner.

42:02 Yeah. Like you're just not going to be all things. You may very well not be the team builder. That might not be the thing that's your sweet spot. Do I suggest heavily that you've got ground to gain there and you need to continue to stretch and grow yourself? Absolutely. A hundred percent. Yeah. And though... Look for that partner, that team member, that leader that you can bring in... That just revels in it. That loves it. Maybe that's that extra layer that you bring into the team. Don't shortchange what you could possibly do because something falls out of your natural wiring or your natural skill set, right? Don't throw a hand grenade in the whole system. Anyways, we got a little wordy there. But do you have maybe just a thought or two to help land the plane and draw this curtain, man?

42:46 Yeah, well, I just think coming back to the original topic of turnover, it's so hard to get talent. It's so painful to watch them walk out the door. And of course, this isn't just with millennials, generation next, whatever the current word is for the young people coming into our businesses. It's across the board. The energy that the younger generation employees is bringing to the business, it's starting to... distribute across all of our employees. Because I think there's something intrinsic that all of us have felt throughout our careers. There's a desire for meaning. There's a desire for what we're doing every day to be satisfying.

43:27 I think even those of us who are in our 40s, we see... we understand at some level. Yeah. Like we understand, yeah, I'm not going to grind my face off for 30 years and not, maybe not even make it, maybe sacrifice my marriage or the quality of my family relationships to get ahead in my career and, and all that. Like we understand, I think what's pushing the younger people to say, no, no, no, I'm not playing that game. Yeah. And at the same time, we just haven't quite figured out how to lead in that environment. Yeah. I think what we're talking about here, and maybe we are talking in idealistic terms, and Jordan Peterson's laying out, this is the target and we're never going to fully reach it.

44:09 But you can march towards it. Yeah, it's like, okay, how can we start to tune our minds to get curious about what people's underlying motivation is? What do they want? Because I think it's possible that somebody can want something that doesn't automatically make us think, mitigation technician. Yeah. But it can still feed that... We can create a role in an environment for them that feeds that thing they're looking for. We were talking about how just this... For you and I, and there's different versions of this, we all tell ourselves a little bit different story. But for me, the hero part of our business is very satisfying to me.

44:50 And even now as a consultant, that I get to be a part of that where we're saving the day... We're helping people turn a corner from a negative experience to a positive. We're like, I love that role. But we all love it maybe for different reasons. And it's like learning how to tell a better story about what our people are signing up for. Finding out what is it that they care about. What is meaningful to the people we're trying... And getting into that conversation and interviews. And then I think the other thing too that we just barely touched on... and I think we should come back to is affirming, right? Like, you know, I think if leaders in previous generations had been better at spotting the good things that people are doing, better at praising the wins, better at praising alignment to the common mission and objectives and vision, I think they would have been even more productive than past generations were.

45:46 I think we're learning that. And our younger employees are saying, I want affirmation. I don't care if you think it's right or wrong. I don't care if you think I'm high maintenance. This is how I've grown up. This is what I've grown to expect and I want... I want to be told when I'm doing a good job. I want to be told when I'm making an impact. I want to be told when you like me, when you like something I did. And so I think we can choose to be annoyed by it. or we can choose to play a better game. Yeah, play to win. Right. Play to win. You know? Yeah. And I just love that analogy too, is they're used to emojis. They're used to the likes. They're used to the thumbs up. They're used to the stuff. It's like, how do we give them more of that?

46:26 Yeah. really drives behavior. Shit, how often are people and us now looking at our phones to see how many people liked that Instagram post that we put up or that LinkedIn post that we created, that article we shared, that video? We all do it now. Yeah. So how do we build that into the way we're leading? How do we touch people at a deeper level that makes them want to commit to us and be loyal to the vision and the mission that we're on? Yeah. I think it requires just a little bit different behavior now, you know? Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Okay, wow. All right, gang. That was a good one. That was a fun one. You know, if this stuff adds value, just share it, please.

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47:51 Check out Liftify. Go subscribe to CNR. We got another one coming. Yeah, we got another one coming. We're really excited about it. We'll do a little surprise launch with them later. Yes, indeed. All right, gang. Thanks for hanging out with us. See you later. All right, everybody. Heath, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart & Boots. And if you're enjoying the show, but you love this episode, please hit follow, formerly known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.