Ep 153 - "Cleaning First, With Dan Claps and John Ortega"

0:00 All right. Well, we got another great show here. This was a fun conversation. It was good, actually. It was really good. I'm saying that like I'm surprised. Yeah, actually, it was really good. Yeah. It was great. A little bit of table setting, though, just for those of you that are brand new to the Head Heart and Boots podcast. Maybe a friend told you about it. Maybe you saw us at the Paul Davis large loss thing that we were at this last week, and you're a newcomer to the pod. That was fun. Yeah. sunny Orlando, which was like stinking 50 degrees. Not sunny. Yeah. What? Orlando, but not sunny. Yeah. It's crazy. Okay. But who are we? You know, Floodlight Consulting Group is a full service consulting firm. And other people tend to use consulting and coaching interchangeably. The fact of the matter is, what we do is we come alongside business owners that want to grow.

0:42 They want to set their businesses up in such a way that not only do they enjoy their business more and they're more able to work on their business as an owner rather than an operator. But they're trying to grow and some are trying to grow to sell some are trying to grow to build a legacy that their kids can work in and so forth. But whatever the reason is, that's normally why people reach out to us is I want to grow. I know I've got some deficiencies that need to be addressed. And, you know, I was thinking about this at a recent conference we were at, dude, our clients don't hire us and pay us money because they need us. Most of the time our clients hire us because they want us. They want somebody that's outside of their business in the trench with them. Right. And certainly part of what they know they're getting when you hire a consulting company that only works with restoration companies and only has consultants that have owned and sold companies successfully, you're getting expertise.

1:32 You know, you're getting direction and guidance. But it was just a little distinction that was important to me is like, we're not the brokers of silver bullets. Yeah. What I think people really hire us for is they want a battle buddy and they want somebody who's kind of up above the battlefield, kind of looking at things more objectively. Because as owners, we can get so caught up in just what's right in front of us that it's difficult for us to maintain this view of what's next, what should I be focusing on, what should my priority be? And I think that's where floodlight comes in. So if you're interested in that, The other thing too that people tap into when you hire a consulting company like Floodlight is the wisdom of the crowd. At any given time, we've got dozens of companies that we service.

2:13 In fact, our portfolio of clients this year, last tally that we were looking at, are going to do over a quarter billion dollars worth of business. So there's a lot of collective experience and observation in that, that our Floodlight team brings to our clients. So anyway, if that's what you're looking for, this is the time of year that a lot of people are thinking about hiring a consultant, coaching partner. And if you're interested in that, it's very easy to kick the tires with Floodlight. We're very transparent about the cost. There's no hidden hat tricks and things that we do. Just go to our website, floodlightgrp.com. go to our services page, click through, put your name and email in. That'll get actually right on my radar and we'll have some shop talk. We'll arrange a little meet and greet call and find out what exactly you're trying to do.

2:57 And if it's a good fit, we'll tell you how much it costs. You decide if it's worth the investment to make that move. And then we get you set up here before we head into the new year. So you've got a partner in your pro forma. You've got somebody to track with you and your team and help develop the team and equip them and so forth to do what you're trying to do. 100%. I was a little bit lengthy, but I felt honest. You know, and I think the timing is interesting. We all know that. Like right now, everybody's been felt like on pause this year. We're kind of buckling down and taking stock of some of the things. For a lot of us, it was a slow first year, first of the year. And then of course, an election year is always a circus. And so I think a lot of people are just ready to go back to work. And part of that can be a partner in the first of the year. Yeah. Yeah, and certainly about 100% of our clients are trying to figure out how to grow sales too.

3:39 That's another piece we haven't mentioned. It's like, oh, always literally, oh, we need to build a sales team. Oh, we got to sell more commercial. Yeah. Yeah. And that is, that is something that our floodlight team helps people with. So anyway, I was looking forward to this man, because you and I have some common genetics with the guests on our thing in terms of how we came up in the business, the things that kind of the perspective and mindset that we have. So we felt very aligned. Cleaning first is not a common topic right now in the world. our industry. I think in a lot of ways, our industry has become hyper-focused on the restoration and rebuild component of our business. And Dan Claps and John Ortega of Voda, Cleaning and Restoration, are oriented around that tip of the spear of cleaning and that steady, eddy, mundane, you know...

4:28 Work that I think a lot of us have kind of shrugged off. Yeah. And of course, you and I, as part of our come up in the industry, cleaning was a really significant part of our strategy for dipping into commercial and ultimately growing a very successful commercial business. It often started with cleaning. And so I think it's a very interesting conversation there. But then there's this whole other piece too of Dan Claps, man. He's a young guy. If you have an opportunity to check this episode out on YouTube. I mean, Dan is a young, fresh-faced guy. I mean, he's... Killing it. I don't even know how old he is, but if I had to guess, 30s. Yeah, I don't know. And here he is. They have over 73 owners already in just the last couple of years. Many of you have seen Dan's splash onto LinkedIn and social media.

5:10 That's how I first saw him. And then we saw John Ortega, who we knew previously when he was in a leadership role at Restoration One. We saw him at Experiencer this year and we saw the excitement on his face. Yeah, it's clear why. Yeah, totally. We get into the show, you guys are going to hear it. And this isn't a sales pitch for Voda. I don't even know. We still know relatively nothing about their franchise offering, blah, blah, blah. But I think you're going to come away with a couple of things. One, there might be some strategy in rethinking, reconsidering, and or reinvesting into the cleaning side of your business as a growth tool and a stabilizer for your business. And two, there's some fundamental principles that Dan gets into that he pulls from his other Past experiences where you're just like, God, that's such a great reminder or a fresh way of thinking about that thing.

5:56 100%. So here we go. Let's dive in. Let's go. Wow. How many of you have listened to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast? I can't tell you that reaction how much that means to us. Welcome back to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brennan. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. This new camera angle makes my arms look smaller than yours. I'm noticing that and I really appreciate it. I thought you did that on purpose. No, I don't. I didn't. And I am not happy with it. Hey, y'all. Thanks so much for listening to the show. Hey, if you're not already following, please do so. And ultimately share, right? The coolest currency that we have in terms of supporting this is share it with a friend, share it with somebody, a colleague, a peer, one of your downline team members.

6:42 Let them be able to take advantage of the information you're already leveraging in your favor. And finally, guys, if you hear a show that really moves you, that really moves the needle, will you please leave us a review? Those five-star reviews help Right on. And listen, if you're trying to grow your business, you might consider checking out Floodlight's Business Opportunity Audit. It's free. We provide it at no charge. It's actually what we use to assess new clients as they come in. It's 110 point assessment for your business. And we've now decided to give access to the general public for it. So go and take our business opportunity audit at floodlightgrp.com. It's going to help you identify the biggest gaps and opportunities in your business right now.

7:25 And at the end, it'll assign you a health score to let you know exactly where your business stands right now. So go check it out, floodlightgrp.com forward slash audit and take the BOA. It's a great way to get a pulse on your business. All right. Well, good morning, Dan. So nice to have you here. And Mr. John Ortega. Dan Collaps and John Ortega, welcome to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast. Yeah. Thanks, guys, for having us on the show. Excited to jump in. Thank you. Yeah. Right on. Right on. For those of you that are watching this on YouTube, John Ortega is here. He just, in his own words, he's not presentable. This morning. Yeah. We love the commitment though. So he is here both in voice and spirit to join us for his conversation.

8:06 I've been excited about this guys ever since we started to dig in with John. You know, Brandon and I first met John during his time in leadership at Restoration One, helping franchisees really learn and understand the business and grow and all those things. And so we had a little bit of collaboration there. And then when we saw John again at I think the Experience, right? Yep. Earlier this year and was hearing about Voda and what's going on there. I think immediately we felt kinship because Brandon and I came up in the industry with kind of a similar approach using cleaning services as tip of the spear as we made as a company made that transition from predominantly a residential business to far more commercial and utilizing cleaning as that kind of primary foot in the door strategy.

8:49 So hearing that you guys are oriented around a similar approach, we're like, oh, this is so cool. And something that I think the industry is... moved away from a little bit for no particular reason, you know? And so I'm excited to get to that. But I wanted to open up, Dan, I think a lot of people in the industry are maybe not yet familiar with you. You know, you've been aggressively building relationships and connections and presence and in our industry, but you've been an entrepreneur in a number of other verticals at what, based on the fresh face that you present at a fairly young age. And I think a lot of people are probably really curious about where this guy come from and what's your background, what'd you do before this? What led you to this point, Dan? Yeah, absolutely.

9:30 And thank you for the compliment. I'll take that fresh face. As we get older, we appreciate those things. Yeah, it really pays when you start getting 50. Yeah. Yeah. Get a little moisturizer going or something. That's right. Didn't do that until a couple weeks ago, so I guess it's working. There you go. Thanks again for having me on the show. I've been now in the restoration space for coming up on a year or two years, excuse me. But I am a franchise executive turned restoration executive. Yeah. A little bit different in the franchise space where typically someone will start in the restoration industry, build a business, and then want to take that to the communities outside of theirs through the franchise model. Where I came into this industry having the franchise experience and then deploying that into restoration, which I believe really gives me a unique lens in seeing the industry.

10:17 And also a very humble leadership style, because I also know I know a heck of a lot less than everyone on this call and probably a lot of your listeners. And so it's really been a unique experience taking my background in franchising and lead generation, which is where I came from, and applying it to what we're doing here at Voda, cleaning and restoration. A little bit about my background. From New Jersey originally, live in New York City now. I am the New Jersey quintessential guy. I'm Italian. I'm from Central Jersey. You don't believe there is a Central Jersey. There is. You have North, South, and I was in right in the middle, South Brunswick, New Jersey. Grew up there. Always was an entrepreneur. I'm an entrepreneur. I had the lemonade stand as a little kid. Then I was selling lacrosse balls. I would buy them for a dollar, sell them for $1.50 to my teammates in school.

11:00 I had many different little side hustles. But when I got to college is when I really started pursuing business and I had a staffing business. And I always say that I can teach people how to run a business well, because I can also teach you how to not run a business. My business in college, they could write a book on how not to run a business. It would be a bestseller. It'd be me doing what I did in college, which was I had this mindset that if you want the job done right, you have to do it yourself. You have to outwork everyone. I was working seven days a week and the business was all me. And so obviously, what did I do? I hit a ceiling because there's only so far you can go. And so in 2014, I was looking at what to do next. And my dad actually said, why don't you look at franchise opportunities?

11:41 They're all about systems and process. And at one point I had sold Kirby vacuum cleaners door to door in high school. And so I know I was pretty good at like the door to door sales and getting in the home and home services is so much of it is about building a better mousetrap and customer service experience. And so I started looking at franchises in the home services space. Now, this was in 2014. I was 22. I had some cash from the first business, but I didn't even have a printer. I didn't have credit. I remember the franchise sending me a personality assessment, and I had to go to the local library to print out the assessment. And the point is, I probably had a few more ducks to get in a row before I was ready to buy a franchise of that investment, home service. And so I found a franchise called Murphy Business and Financial.

12:23 They're a franchise for business brokers. So I actually started out in the business brokerage industry, which is helping people buy and sell a business. Did that for a couple of years in that franchise model. And I had a great experience. But the only thing about the experience I didn't like was one day I looked in the mirror and I realized I, again, was still the business. I made the same mistake twice. If the phone rang and I didn't answer, I didn't make any money. And to me, the definition of a business owner is you trade value for money, not time for money. And I was trading time for money. I was self-employed, not a business owner. Yeah. So kind of end of the story is I looked back and realized that my skill set up until there had really been around generating leads for both of those businesses. And so in 2016, I started a lead generation company in the franchise space, generating leads.

13:08 And from 2016 to 2022, that was my sole focus, lead generation. Everything from Google ads, Facebook ads, call centers, LinkedIn campaigns, email campaigns. So I really learned how to build a marketing engine. Did that until 2022. And then that business was acquired by private equity, which I'll tell you my kind of story there at a different point. But sold that business and started looking at what to do next. Fell in love with this industry for a plethora of reasons. But before I get into that, that's the journey into restoration. Found a great company in Northern Virginia. At the time, it was called DNA Pro Cleaning. The founder, who's now a partner in our business, did an incredible job building a business for 14 years in the cleaning and restoration space.

13:51 And myself and our team were able to come in, acquire that business, put some systems in place and franchise it around the country. It's what we're doing today. So interesting. So right out of the gate, I mean, kind of the backbone or some of the heartbeat to Voda was this idea of we've got to make sure we build a system where people can be business owners and not just self-employed is what I'm hearing. Kind of this theme in the background. Is that fair? A hundred percent. I would say like exiting my previous business was really the testament to building something that could run without you, right? Because you can leave and it continues to exist. And then with building Voda for our franchise owners that we knew we were bringing in, how could we build a business that ran with systems and people and enable for them to build more of a business than a job?

14:34 And so that's at the core of our franchise offering is how do we build this business where people can work on the business as much as possible and less in the business? Yeah. hopefully I'm not going to get too deep into the weeds on this one, but I'm interested. So like Dan, from your perspective, have you guys learned how to suss out kind of that idea of, is this an individual that will be able to make a transition into being a business owner versus being, self-employed. Because I think one of the things that we wrestle with is, I think some individuals, that transition is far more challenging than sometimes they're up for, right? To really even exist in that space, to be able to build some of the leadership cadences and competencies that that would require. So I'm just curious, maybe a two-parter here, Dan, is what are you guys doing to kind of suss that out?

15:19 And maybe the second part is, what are you doing messaging-wise wise to be clear with folks like, hey, this is an important element of your success as being an owner versus being self-employed? Yeah, that's a great question, Brandon. So first off, the first thing I'll say is you got to have the right capital to do this business. As you know, no matter how many carpets you clean, the restoration side, that carrying of AR is a significant part. And when you first start, you really need to spend money on marketing and growing a team. And so we definitely first thing is that people have enough capital to do this. We're probably not the bootstrap kind of model. There's other ways to do restoration and cleaning. If you want to do that, we're a little bit more or people that initially want to build a business and have the capital to do so. That's number one. Number two, to us, our number one indicator of someone being successful at this is the attribute that we look for, which is we call them the mayor of the town.

16:06 You know, home services is a people business. If you're not a people person, I don't think you should be in home services since it's a people business. And we really look for people that show us a proven track record of being good at and enjoying networking. outside of the capital component. The third is we try to look for a time where a franchise candidate has shown an ability to be gritty in a time of adversity, that they didn't just fold up when they hit adversity. Because with a franchise model or not, we're not going to go through the sleepless nice with the person. They're still going to have that argument with their spouse when they get this thing off the ground and it's difficult. I do always say we want our franchise owners to do this with their spouse, not to their spouse.

16:48 So we try to get them on board too. But we look for grit because to me, that's the number one thing. No matter what, it's going to be hard. And can you be gritty when people are telling you to give up. I love that. You're going to do this with your spouse and not to your spouse. That's a pretty great launching, launching. Yeah. Yeah. It's super fair. Yeah. If I could, before we get too far into the business of Voda and so forth, I want to go back because I feel like in many ways we just went off the rocket launch pad and we went from zero to Mars in about seven minutes. Dan, as you look back over your career thus far, are there particular mentors that stand out in your life? I heard you mention your father and some of his guidance of, hey, look into franchising, but who are the mentors that stand out kind of along your path?

17:30 And what were some of the transformational moments like or difficult conversations that you had with those mentors that helped kind of get you to where you are now? Well, I guess to start, if you own a business and you have kids or nephews that have any indication of desire to be in business, when I was 12, my uncle was very successful in the camera business, very, very, very successful. And he started bringing me along to his Walmart meetings or to different meetings that he had. And I would sit there and I would just absorb how he was building relationships. Yeah. The first thing was my uncle was very successful in sales. And I was fortunate to have him at a young age teach me about salesmanship. I mean, yeah, I have so many. When I first started the Murphy franchise, there was a regional director.

18:12 Because if you're part of a franchise, you have a lot of support. The gentleman there, I don't know why he took a shot on me. I barely had the ability to shave properly. I looked ridiculous. My tie was too small. I wasn't dressed properly to be a business broker. And he took a shot on me and groomed me to kind of know how to be in the court more professional. And then my previous business, I had a partner that was older than me and, you know, really took an interest in teaching me how to build a business to run without being in the day to day. You know, success doesn't usually come alone. And so and then my current partner, Dragon, the founder of Voda Cleaning Restoration, has been a great friend, mentor, co-mentor. We mentor each other, too. Mentorship can go both ways. So great. I can go on and on. But what I will tell you is people have taken an interest in mentoring me.

18:55 If anyone's interested in getting a mentor, because I always say a mentor doesn't choose to be your mentor. You make them your mentor. And so like if you find someone that inspires you, especially at a younger age, if any of your listeners are in their early twenties, mid twenties, it's a lot, I think, easier to get that first mentor that age. I think as you get a little bit older, it's a little more challenging. But if you just show a desire to learn and you respect someone and you, You're coachable. People will give you the opportunity. As far as difficult conversations, I have more of those than not because it's taken a while to get to this point. As I mentioned, I was pretty rough when I first started in business and I've had these people that kind of have groomed me and saw potential. Hang in there for a moment. You know, as somebody who's just, you've been chasing success or working towards entrepreneurship from a very young age and seeing examples of it, what an incredibly awesome experience to have your uncle take you on sales calls, like before you were even a teenager.

19:50 Oh my gosh. I think a lot of us are like, wow. And it's making me think too, like what I could be doing or offering to my sons and my kids even right now, I'm like, oh. oh yeah, maybe I need to bring them on my next business trip, you know, and expose them to that. But was there ever a point where you felt like you had to contend with imposter syndrome? Like, was there ever a point in your career where you recall thinking, like maybe it was the Murphy business where you showed up, you didn't know how to dress for these business pros you're meeting with. Was there ever a point where you said, what am I doing here? What gives me the right to be brokering businesses? When I, you know, like, was there ever a point where you faced that? And how did you move through that imposter syndrome? And is that something you still even deal with today? Every day at all levels, including today, including right now, I have imposter syndrome in the back of my mind.

20:33 I think every leader does. I think if you watch, I don't know, the CEO of any massive company, they still have it. It drives you. So yeah, I would say if you don't have some feeling of imposter syndrome and discomfort, then you probably have stayed in a position that you're ready to grow out of. Anytime I've not had imposter syndrome, I was in a role that I was ready to move out of, if that makes sense. So absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's a normal feeling to feel that how you combat it is by learning. So for me, I read ferociously. I love to read, listen to podcasts, content like this and just learn. And so I usually feel pretty comfortable in my role because I know that I'm learning. in the position I need to be, which is often, then I know that I can continue to rely on books and mentors, etc.

21:20 to get there. But I think it's pretty normal to feel that imposter syndrome, or not to get too deep. But as an entrepreneur, usually there's like a substantial correlation between entrepreneurship and some type of chaos in your childhood or in your life. And so you might have, for example, a feeling of not deserving it or not feeling good enough. And so that's a Symptom of imposter syndrome or root of imposter syndrome. So yeah, absolutely. I just never allow it to affect what I'm doing day to day. How do you do that? I mean, beyond the learning piece, are there any mental checks that you have to do with yourself? Is there any kind of like tools or tactics that you're deploying to keep that monster in check? you're in the role for a reason. You didn't get there by accident, right?

22:00 So for example, I always talk about hiring great people. I try to hire people better than me, smarter than me. That could be a bit of an ego gut wrench when you realize someone is better than you at something. But you remind yourself that they're in their role for a reason. Maybe they love me business ownership and they love building a business, but they don't want to take that financial risk. They don't want to have the sleepless night. There's a reason they're in their role. There's a reason you're in your role. One role or the other is not necessarily better, by the way. I would like the ability to turn work off on the weekends and nights. That sounds like a nice thing. I don't know how. Maybe you guys are the same. There's other people that could be incredible business leaders, but turn it off. on nights and weekends. Sometimes success is a blessing and a curse.

22:40 So my point is you're in the role that you're in for a reason. You didn't magically get there. Sometimes I guess you can get hired for a role above where you're supposed to be and it'll work itself out and then you'll be where you're supposed to be. But more times than not, it's just insecurity that you're feeling if you have imposter syndrome. So you might as well just push through it. It's so true. And it's like that case where it mounts, right? The more competent and higher level people that you begin trying to pull into your organization. There's this constant, I don't know what I would call it necessarily, but just kind of breath down the back of your neck of you've got to iterate, you've got to continue to adapt and learn and be willing to... to grow and push through the disciplines that are required to get that growth.

23:21 Because if you don't, eventually those people will kind of start asking themselves the question, like, what are you materially bringing to the relationship? You know what I mean? And I think that that's kind of some of that. And I guess I'm probably just being super transparent for myself. Like that's what I feel. I feel an obligation that if I'm going to go out and, and get really great people that I've got to show them that I'm willing to put in the time and the discipline to get better, to iterate, to learn, to adapt my competency to, I wouldn't say compete, but to be worthy of them participating in our mission together and what it is that we're doing together. All that to be said though, there is something I think I really am hearing in what We did get here for a reason.

24:04 There is a purpose behind each one of us holding the role that we hold. And I think sometimes as owners, at least I've wrestled with this, Dan, is that I can devalue that piece I bring, which is the willingness to take on risk and liability. And sometimes I can wrestle with as an owner that if I don't have some other competencies that I'm deploying on the daily, that I'm not earning my place at the table. And I think for a lot of entrepreneurs, it's okay for you to recognize that your willingness to have the sleepless nights to put it on the table and to risk it is part of what gives the others the opportunity to do their thing as well. And that in and of itself has value and is valuable.

24:47 A hundred percent. I mean, and assume you took the risk financially, but you gave another person a platform to build a business with you, not for you. And they have all the benefits of business ownership, including maybe some equity in the opportunity. Maybe they don't have the entire upside because they didn't take all the downside. But if you build a company where people have an actual stake in what you're doing, you're actually empowering people to... have something that maybe they couldn't have had without you having that vision and taking that risk. And so discrediting that is silly. The other thing is on the traverse of that, like great people, when you find a great person, you have to just remind yourself that you're lucky to have them. They could go build a lot of other people's businesses. They're building yours. And so if you can, I know it's cliche, but if you can have a big enough vision that their vision can fit within it then you can always hire great people.

25:35 I've got some people at my company that make substantial amounts of money and they're not satisfied. And so if I don't work on making a bigger vision, then guess what? If I lose them, it's not because they weren't loyal to me. This is an old school mindset, right? Oh, they left, they weren't loyal. They didn't stay there. No, you needed to... Again, maybe there's certain situations that are different, but more likely than not, they hit a ceiling. And if your vision wasn't big enough to give them a higher echelon to grow to, then they will leave you. And so I think just the business of figuring out how to create an environment where your people have enough room to grow, that they're happy and they stay. That's a full time job in itself. Dealing with the bank, getting loans, payroll, all the things you're doing as an owner.

26:15 Don't discredit that. As I said at the beginning, you're in your seat for a reason. And if you feel like you aren't, like you're not ready to be in that seat yet, then go turn to books and podcasts, who you hang out with and what you consume. You'll get yourself to the level that you need to be if you are a little bit over your head at the time that you're in it. That's rad. I love that. That's good, man. Let's hang in that thread for a moment. Talk to us about some other operating principles that you have landed on, I guess, throughout your career and what you brought into Voda. What are some of the other operating principles or ways of looking at the business that you feel like are really integral? It's a great question. When it comes to people, like the first thing is like, just understanding that people build the business. Like when you're in a leadership role, your job is to build the people and the people build the business.

26:58 If you can get your intentions on that and understanding of that, then that's the first step for me. And someone listening to this might think like, well, I'm just starting out like it's different. It's not different. I don't care if you just opened your LLC. The day you open that LLC, think about people. It's usually not a question of what, it's a question of who can do the certain roles. And so focusing on people is number one. Number two is this understanding that what would you rather have? 100% of a grape or 80% of a watermelon? Like, I'd rather have 80% of a watermelon. I'd actually rather have 70% of 10 watermelons, meaning I've got figuratively watermelon businesses versus grapes. They're bigger, right? I have 70%, but I've got lots of things being run by a team of people.

27:40 So giving people a stake in your company where they're working with you, not for you, because they're working with you. it's their business too. That's key. And then with that, the third, I guess, around still around people. I heard Drew Brees at a conference once speak. What he said changed my life. He said, the best teams he's ever played for are the ones that love each other the most. That to re-say it, the best teams they ever played for, they cared for each other the most. And so if you can build a team where people love what they're doing and they love each other, they care about each other. Like obviously, you know, it's not a family. actually, sorry, another analogy, you're not building a family in your business. You're building a high-performing sports team. If you and I are on a team and you keep throwing me the ball and I keep missing it, first you're gonna say, dude, you gotta get it together.

28:20 Let's get you to practice. If you keep throwing the ball though and I keep missing, you gotta take me from the team, right? That's just how sports work. You still care about each other, but it's a sport. It's not a family. You can't leave your family. You don't choose your family. You make decisions on emotions with family, not logic, which is fine for family, but not in business. And so building a team that care about each other But seeing it as a sports team where you guys have to really hold each other accountable, I think is the number one. And then I'm sorry to be so long winded. This is great. This is awesome. Your great questions in this coffee got me going extra speed. But the last thing I'll say on this is you can't just set and actually just learn this. You can't just have a mission for people. You have to hire people that not only understand the mission and get the mission, they have to be connected to the mission.

29:06 So what I mean by that is, for example, in my business, in the franchise business, our mission is to empower entrepreneurs to think bigger. And so each one of our franchise owners, how do we help them think bigger, buy that next truck, hire the GM, hit the next revenue milestone? I can only hire people that... believe in that mission, whether they used to be an entrepreneur, they love entrepreneurship, they come from a family of entrepreneurs. A lot of my team, they have even more junior people, they have Etsy stores that they're doing on the side, like they love entrepreneurship. And so they want to empower others to think bigger in entrepreneurship. Okay, man, we got to hang here. First off, just thank you so far, Dan. You have a great way of communicating and keeping your thoughts in alignment where people can follow along and track with where you're going.

29:50 It's really powerful. This kind of high stakes sports team versus family. I think this is a super interesting topic, especially when you're using words before that like love. And this has been a topic that honestly Chris and I have really been keyed in on and oriented around. It's why we've pursued guests like Clint Pulver before is we just believe there's magic when teams begin to find the balance in that dichotomy between deeply caring about one another for the sake of one another, but having these clear, crisp lines in the sand. that we're all dedicated to. And my point of reference for me has always been my military background.

30:30 Like I was fortunate enough to be part of the 82nd Airborne Division in no ways am I saying I was part of special operations. But when you separate that group from the greater military forces, it's a small group in and of itself. And then the tiers just keep going from there in terms of how many players can... participate. And one of the experiences that has just continued to shape me and move me was this, I mean, crazy level of loyalty to one another, like an absolute lay your life down, do whatever is necessary and we'll sacrifice whatever is necessary for the sake of the person to your left and right. Even when we didn't necessarily agree or see eye to eye in all facets of life.

31:12 unbelievably powerful. And it created a sense of accountability for me as an individual that just took me so far outside of myself. I mean, there's, when you are acutely responsible for some of those folks left and right, it changes your willingness to hold yourself accountable and have personal discipline. Can you just, and I guess long story short, I totally relate with what you just said and the differentiation between the two. Can you kind of give us examples of in your culture, what are you looking for to know that that's happening? That you see the balance between the love, the loyalty to relationship, and though this deep sense of peer accountability and commitment to the standards?

31:52 Yeah. Well, first, thank you for the service. And it's a great analogy for your service. So I wish I had that level of camaraderie and brotherhood that you had. My closest version was in high, well, outside of VOTA now was in high school. I wrestled in high school and in middle school. And being on a team, I love wrestling because it's an individual sport amongst the team sport. And winning together, losing together, that camaraderie that you have. I always say that I was trying to refine that my whole life until I built the team at VOTA, which we really have that same kind of sports team culture. structure together. But when I think about playing on a team, let's say an NFL team, a professional team, if you're on the team, you obviously had to pass a bunch of stuff to be there.

32:33 If I look over to this other player, he clearly had to pass a rigorous vetting process to get on the team or the SEALs or anywhere. To get there, they're in that seat for a reason too. The first thing is that when you build a company where your team knows that, hey, I know my company that I work for does a great job at vetting people. So that's number one is you got to really vet people and build a culture where your team knows that. Number two, when I think about the military or the wrestling or great companies, I know it's cliche, but core values play a real role. Like this is all similar people that joined a similar mission and cause. And you probably were connected to the greater cause of why you were there.

33:13 Right? So think about that. It's mission is core values. It's a, it's vetting people out. In a great team, the person that gets hired and slips through the cracks that isn't a fit, they'll be like a cancer. And a great team will actually be like antibodies and they'll push that person out themselves. Great teams will literally get rid of the non-culture fit without you even doing anything. So that's really interesting. But I would say that the best thing I can talk about is if you're going to build a business, you need to build it where... You have three, four, five people, depending on the size, that all sit in leadership roles, that all share the same core values and the same mission. But they all have each have their own unique skill set.

33:55 So I'll give you an example. At Voda, at the founding team, the leadership team, my background is, like you said, just the skill of being able to take the risk, have the vision. You know, that's enough right there. We have a COO, our COO, Zach Nolte, who's our co-founder. He's incredible at operating a business. Like his Achilles heel is my strength. My strength is his Achilles heel. And we work, I think I said that right, right? Our strengths work together. Our CMO is a marketing genius. And then our sales VP of development, who's on the sales side, is incredible at that. Our founder, Dragon, incredible at that. We all get in a room and we all trust each other and kind of have our own little departments that each has kind of veto power over, if you will. Right? Ops leads ops.

34:36 Marketing leads marketing. Sales leads sales. We've taken that and then as the company has grown and added layers, for example, John, we have great conversations. I don't pretend to know more about restoration than John does. Why did we bring John here? He's got 20 years plus in the industry. I don't need to try to challenge him on restoration. That's silly. That's why he's here. Same with our other teammates. And so I think you need to build this team where everyone respects each other for their role. And because last thing I'll say on this, because you respect each other, you can actually call each other out and you can actually duke it out, if you will. Like if I get on a leadership call and everything's hunky dory and everything's great and there's no issues, there's no debates, like that's not a good team. A great team can kind of challenge each other.

35:17 Yeah. Yeah. John, speaking of you, sir, I'm wondering from your perspective, what kind of language or behavior were you seeing or experiencing that made you trust the fact that Dan is building the kind of team that he's talking about right now? What did you see? What was the draw? Great question, Brandon. Thank you. And man, great conversation. Awesome. I told you, Dan's full of energy. He's so passionate. So he's like, you're just infectious, just listening. I mean, what actually attracted me to Bodo was, you know, of course, seeing from afar was the passion from their network. So I actually started meeting a couple of their owners in passing and the mindset that they all had, the unity in the mindset.

35:59 You know, I mentioned earlier when we were just previously discussing before we actually went live. That term, mayor of the community, you know, it resonates digitally. If you watch and follow Voda, you'll notice that there is a lot of resonation around that term being the mayor of the community. And that message, you feel it. You can see it. As I joined the team and started meeting some of these franchise owners, as we call franchise partners, I mean, they all embrace that same passion. So that same message. And so it was kind of drawing during my due diligence before joining the team, just speaking to other people within the industry. They had the same. They're like, man, those guys have Voda. You see how they're killing it out there.

36:40 Up and coming. Who are they? See their values, their mission. They're all singing the same song. And I'm like, man, dude, it is awesome to see that. And it did gravitate. It drew me to them, you know, and basically I started to seek to understand who is Voda? What are they all about? I've been following this guy, Dan, watching his little adventure digitally and their expansion. And it's just like, man. Same message resonated. These guys are passionate about their clients, about their mission, you know, about the cleaning space. That's that part that really drew me in was the cleaning space. I love restoration 20 plus years in the game. But let's remember cleaning is where it's at as well. So they're resonating that message and bringing that back to the forefront has resonated throughout the entire network of Voda.

37:25 And I mean, just long winded answer to, you know, what did I see? I saw that. I saw that passion. I saw that message. I saw them doing things on the local level in which I was like, man, that's where it's at. And everyone's on message at Voda, which is the greatest thing. We are all on message. And I'm happy to be a part of that team. That's cool. Yeah, that's a great segue, actually, because I want to explore the whole cleaning portion of the business. Because, again, I think much of the industry has kind of gotten a wave. from that origin story. And so, Dan, I'm curious to see how much of that was your vision? Were that as an underserved sort of industry vertical or like an unmet need in the space that you felt like it was worth prioritizing in the business model?

38:09 How'd that come about? And talk to us more about the results you're seeing from that focus. Sure. Well, you know, the taking care of the team translates, by the way, because for me, my team then works with our franchise owners who we see as customers. They treat them great. Franchise owners then treat their team great or then treat the customer great. Right. So there's this flywheel that happens. But, you know, as far as the cleaning side of our business, so why do I get in restoration? We all know it's a great business, right? It's recession proof. It's pandemic resistant. The insurance pays the bills a lot of the time, high average ticket, high margin, et cetera, et cetera. But you got to wait for that money. And that's a challenge. Liftify.com forward slash bloodlight. You've heard Brandon and I talk a bunch of times about the importance of Google reviews.

38:51 Maybe you even heard our episode with Zach Garrett, the CEO and founder. Recency, consistency, two of the most important things when it comes to maximizing the benefit from your Google reviews. Why not use an outside partner? Liftify is targeting 20 to 25% conversion, right? So if you do a thousand jobs a year, you ought to be adding right now, 200 to 250 reviews a year, every single year. If you're not doing that, you owe it to yourself to get a free demo from liftify.com. See their system, see how it works, see how affordable it is. I promise you, you'll thank us. Liftify.com forward slash bloodlight. You know, we spend a lot of money and a lot of attention trying to get that first call.

39:32 And one of the things that we do once it happens is sometimes we leave it to chance, right? Who picks up the phone? How do they respond? How do they walk that client into a relationship with us? Well, one of the benefits of partnering with a team like AnswerForce.com is we can systemize that. We can make it more consistent. We can also have backup for when our teams need that help, right? Somebody goes on vacation. Somebody's out sick. We get a storm surge. We get cat event. All sorts of things can have an impact on how we receive that client. But the most important thing is they need to know that they've chosen the right team. And so AnswerForce.com can support you, be a bolt-on partner to help you consistently produce an awesome onboarding experience with that first call with your client.

40:16 So AnswerForce.com forward slash answerforce.com. blood light. That's great. CNR Magazine, we're friends with all the folks at CNR. Michelle and her team, they do a great job of keeping their ear to the ground and reporting all the important information from our industry. Right? You want to stay up on all the M&A activity and what the latest best practices are for selling your company successfully. Right? She's got that. Great articles about all the four quadrants of our business. Right? CNR is constantly pushing out great material and leveraging great writers and subject matter experts in our industry. Right? It is the water cooler of our industry. So if you're not subscribed, go to cnrmagazine.com. Follow them on LinkedIn.

40:56 Follow Michelle on LinkedIn. Trust us. If you're trying to stay on top of everything happening in the industry, your best destination is cnrmagazine.com. You guys, many of you have already heard about actionable insights and the training and the technical expertise that they bring to the industry. But how many of you are already leveraging the actionable insights profile for Xactimate? That's the game changer. It's essentially an AI tool that's walking alongside of you as you write your estimate, bringing things to your attention that should be added, that could be considered. All of them items that increase our profitability, increase the effectiveness and the consistency of that scope. And it can do anything from helping a new team member assimilate some estimating best practices.

41:41 And it also helps the grizzled vets add back that few percent that we've just forgot over time. So actionable insights, get insights.org forward slash floodlight and take a look at what the actionable insights exactimate profile could be doing for you and your team. We loved the fact that you can clean floors, carpets, tile and grout, etc. for business owners and homeowners and really supplement your revenue while you're waiting for those restoration revenues to come in. And so when we found Dragon and his team, the founder of Voda, I think that I saw the cleaning and restoration component and saw... In my previous business, we had revenue coming in weekly on a membership basis and then bigger hits.

42:26 And I remember always thinking if we didn't have the recurring revenue, how much more frustrating those delays in getting paid would have been. But for us, it was always icing on the cake because we had the recurring revenue. And so I definitely saw that. Obviously, Dragon saw it because he built the business. And then Zach, our COO, really leaned into that, saying, like, this is where we need to go down the cleaning and restoration process. I'll share a very candid journey with you. So we launched the business, started franchising. Our first few franchise owners are in a system where we're building it together in a lot of ways, right? They're the first franchise owner. And we had owners early in get a bit drunk on the restoration. They'd say, why would I clean a carpet for 300 bucks? I can go do a water restoration job and I'm getting plenty of them anyway.

43:09 You know, it was October, right? Or a busy time and didn't think about the idea that there will be a month that it goes dry. And so we saw owners really start to lean into restoration. And myself included saw the revenues and the profitability. And I would even argue that I started to lean away from cleaning. And it's so fascinating, by the way, no matter what, the person at the helm of the business, whatever they're thinking, I don't know if it sounds like a hippie, but like whatever they're thinking, and then also whatever they're exuding into the industry, into the organization, it will come to life. And so I don't even know if I was saying to people, let's focus on restoration, but I was thinking it. early in. And so this was a learning experience because our leadership team was very much against that, very much pushing cleaning and restoration.

43:55 And it's funny, watching our early franchise owners six months in, seven months in, say, wait a minute, I'm starting to see why we need to clean, especially when I'm starting this business. I saw that too. And I almost feel like our early franchise owners and myself aligned there and have never looked back since. And then bringing on John that completely gets it and continues to help evangelize that message is key. So my point is, if you're listening to this and you've done cleaning and then stopped, you've thought about it, I completely understand why you might not want to do it because I was in that same boat in my own company. But now having more experience, seeing the amount of opportunities that going to a property manager and cleaning their floors or going to a home and doing a great job.

44:36 And then it turns out their brother-in-law is a plumber and we did a great job. And now we're getting business. Seeing the trucks go on the road so much more, equating to more five-star reviews, allowing us to get more five-star reviews in general. No one's looking at when they have a restoration need that there was 100% five-star reviews and 60 of them were cleaning. They're just seeing a good service. And so this benefit of cleaning brings you more leads, gets you more opportunities, brings you consistent revenue, gets you in front of property managers and plumbers or whoever else. And so I can't find a negative other than, and I hate to say this, but in the beginning, being a little bit lazy, right? Or being a little bit chasing the shiny object. If you can do both, you're going to build a much more stable business in the long run.

45:18 It's interesting that you say that because one of the things that we do at Floodlight is we have an assessment that we do with clients, probably not too abnormal. And one of those assessments or part of that assessment, we're just trying to dig in and see what systems and processes are in place that will help the entity scale. And so it's not just like, how do you do the do? But it's like, no, what is the infrastructure that you're investing in and the strategies that you're deploying to create consistency in these different categories of your business, right? And one of those, when it comes to the financials, is the stability of the revenue base. And obviously, when you're not doing any kind of cleaning, Getting a five in that category is not going to happen. Our businesses essentially exist on these cycles and swings of revenue.

46:03 And there's different things that we can do to take some of the highs and lows out of that. But my point is, is that what you're talking about really creates some stability. It fills a lot of things. in the blank so that it is more realistic to have some balance to the financial, the cash flow, the in and out of your business. And it is funny how we do have access to this. We're surrounded by these service lines. We're often being asked to provide the service lines. And yet we really are fairly steadfast of not wanting to lean into it. From your guys' perspective, inner dialogue, What do you think the biggest concern, hurdle, or fear factor is outside of being a little lazy? Why do you think that people are posturing against that?

46:45 What is that sense of, oh man, I don't know if I want to wrestle with that or take that on from your guys' perspective? Just to clarify, to take on, adding on cleaning? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some of those more day-to-day service lines, yeah, service offerings. I think that it starts with a mindset. For whatever reason, I find business owners, when they look at adding a service line, they think of cannibalizing the other. Like, oh, well, we don't want to lose restoration jobs adding cleaning. That's not the goal. Your goal is to keep growing your restoration business the same clip, if not faster, while building cleaning. I mean, I guess the first point, I mean, in Voda, not to plug Voda, but the way we've updated our trucks, we're able to do cleaning and restoration out of one truck through the truck mount and through the whole system that we put together.

47:31 And so I guess, obviously, there's the equipment side of things and making sure you're structured that way. I think that can be a challenge. I think people also get in the mindset of what happens when I get a cleaning job? and I have it booked, and then I get a water loss that I have to go to, and there's no way around rescheduling the cleaning job. What we've found is obviously we want to try to avoid cleaning reschedules, but most people are pretty understanding. If you call them and you say, hey, we're so sorry, we have a water loss. It's a total emergency. Can we come tomorrow? People are not understanding of that. And so I think those are big concerns that you could pretty much easily work past. I think the biggest thing is we all want to hit home runs, right? So you're thinking about where's my next water loss and why not clean carpets while you're doing it, hit some singles and it'll, over time, it'll, I think the biggest thing is building a cleaning business is the least sexy, least quick results.

48:22 Don't try to get rich quick. Building a cleaning business, try to get wealthy slow. Meaning, eventually, you look back two years later, you got a couple, several thousands of dollars a week coming in. You're paying your bills, and now you can do more water loss. Also, it gives your guys, when they're not able to do any water jobs or mold or fire, they go out, they can clean, and you keep them on the payroll, which is obviously a huge benefit in itself. Yes, awesome. Awesome. Are you guys also finding that you're able to get actual monthly recurring revenue by providing these services? Do you guys have a model that you pursue of programmed cleaning for commercial offices or buildings or, you know, senior living, that kind of stuff? Is that something that you guys have also evolved into?

49:03 Yeah, great question. You know, it speaks to the power of the franchise system. We always thought about it, but never really pursued it. Then franchise owners started landing. I don't want to call them national accounts, more like regional accounts. You know, hey, I just met Planet Fitness, the guy that owns 10. The next thing you know, he does a great job cleaning the floors. And they give us work to do it quarterly or monthly, etc. Absolutely. Is it a rolled out program that we're executing on as a system? Currently, no, but it's definitely something we're working toward, especially on the commercial side. That's a huge opportunity. And remember, going back to the benefit of cleaning, when we're cleaning Planet Fitness's floors and they start to know us, when there's a water loss, a lot easier to call us when we've been showing up consistently, bringing them a donut or a coffee here and there versus just showing up and saying, hey, call me when things go wrong.

49:49 We've already proven value through our cleaning services. Yeah, 100%. 100%. How do you guys maximize that cross-sell? Yeah. Is there a methodology with how you manage those face-to-face interactions when we're delivering these routine services to the carpet cleaning, tile and grout cleaning, upholstery cleaning, that stuff in order to solidify the opportunity when they have a damage event? Like, is there a particular approach you guys take to developing that relationship in that way? So just to go back on that previous thought, and I'll get back to how we approach it from that standpoint. So change, you know, that's a struggle for a lot of restorers. When you want to add cleaning to the mix, it's like, oh, you want me to change something?

50:31 And Dan hit it on the note, like resources. Do I have enough resources? Availability. I'm in the emergency service business. I'm trying to get to those targets as soon as possible, putting cleaning in the mix. So a lot of those thoughts change. Get into some of these restorers who are established about putting cleaning in play after the fact. One of the great things about what we're doing at Voda is we're putting that in the mix first. That's part of our training culture where it's let's, understand the cleaning environment, how to clean, how to maintain successful cleaning contracts. And yes, let's also segue into, we're also good at and professional that restoration, you know, which now takes us to your, you know, your question, how are we leveling those angles?

51:18 Since I joined the team and I've been working with the training department and we're trying to implement a lot of new ways to strategically market in the commercial space, the nursing space, the educational space, multifamily space where it's leveraging. Listen, we're going to solidify this cleaning contract. And on top of that, we do offer this phenomenal restoration remediation services. We'd love to talk to you guys more about it. And that leads to, as you guys know, being experienced in the industry, you know, if we can segue and get in with a client on a commercial level, residential level, whatever HOA level, from a standpoint of we want to be your cleaning provider. Hey, by the way, we also have this service.

52:00 Let's come on with a contract, you know, where we put our face in front of you guys. And to the most part where we know that. We don't want to see a water damage, a fire, you know, when I'm molding your units or anything, but you want cleanliness all the time. Right. And we can be there proactively, contractually. And then in the time of need, hey, boom, we're dropping those seeds of restoration, inviting them out to learn about restoration applications in their environments. Lunch and learns cleaning. We just need to get in with the cleaning. You know, that's the goal. There was an article about a year or two ago where our industry is doing a 180. I mean, we're back to literally, if you can't solidify a cleaning contract with a commercial client, it's going to be hard for us to walk in there and say, hey, let me get all your restoration work.

52:48 Yeah, I think what you're saying is it's that you're teaching the client how to buy from you with a product that they're willing to purchase right now. Yep. And it's a need. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so funny on the restoration side, like how Chris talks about this a lot. We just think everybody's thinking about it all the time. And they're literally, it couldn't probably be further from their mind ever, except for when crap hits the fan. And it's like, oh, now I got to address this. Until then, they're like, they don't think about it at all. And all these other services that you guys are emphasizing, like these are everyday things for them. Unit terms, they're constantly thinking about them week in and week out. Whereas restoration, it's like, I don't want to think about that until I have to.

53:30 And it's a hard sell sometimes for those commercial, multi-residential properties. You're 100%. No one wants to hear, hey, in your time of flooding or your AC chiller burst, whatever, maybe we'll be there. They want to hear more things of a standpoint of, listen, your place is beautiful. I like to keep it open. I like to keep that cleanliness with those environments. Even from the retail standpoint, no guy wants to hear or store owner wants to hear, oh, I got to shut you down for half a day while we start mitigating your loss. You know, more like, hey, my team can keep you guys open throughout the day. We can triage. So being able to deliver more. And that's something that we're preaching and teaching our voter members at the Voter University.

54:15 It's like cleaning first, guys. Let's not forget that because the rest of those are going to come. It's totally going to come in. But we want to make sure that that daily revenue, that weekly revenue, that monthly, quarterly revenue is being generated. That's where that cleaning comes in. Yeah. You know, one of the other things that comes up for me as we have this conversation is just like Brandon and I last week, we were speaking to a bunch of really successful restorers. And yet everybody in this industry is feeling the pressure of all the consolidation that's been happening, right? Belfort's acquiring local, regional, smaller players, First Onsite's doing the same, Blue Sky's doing the same, BMS Cats consolidating all these smaller restorers.

54:56 And so... The rest of us, right, are having to contend with how do we compete against these big, quote, national accounts that we keep running into now as we go into multifamily senior living? Oh, we have a national account with so-and-so. Sorry. How do you compete with that? And at Floodlight, we have some answers that we've developed over the years and some strategies for that. And one of those is, I believe what we're doing here, which is... just because they have a national account with so-and-so or such-and-such does not mean we can't get into that account by providing some other ancillary services. And Brandon and I actually found tremendous success with this. We had a number of accounts that we couldn't get into on the restoration side immediately, but there was an opening for us to provide programmed carpet cleaning services.

55:43 And over time, what we found was that the loyalty to that national account Was not what they conveyed initially. We have to, we can't use you guys because of. Over time, what we found is that when they discovered, they appreciated our service level and the reliability of our service and the communication cadence we deployed. And the interest in our service level in terms of soliciting feedback, like all of these things started to coalesce to where they're like, God, these guys are great to deal with. And this other national account, not necessarily so great to deal with when we've had to, that oftentimes we get an opportunity in that backup seat to perform on, on a damage event.

56:25 And that becomes our opening into that relationship. And Brandon, I've told the story a bunch of times live with other people, but I, When we were at a particular restore, we had a national account. It was ours. And when we audited that national account, we're like, holy cow, we've gotten hardly any business this year from this national account. And when we went and interviewed all of our local decision makers, lo and behold, they were giving all of their water business to a local little tiny franchise guy. A little tiny franchise guy that had this little chuck in a truck on our national accounts.

57:06 But his particular franchise was cleaning forward. He was doing their carpets and their turns. And so when water damage events would come up, he was gobbling them up because they trusted him. It's like they needed a unit turn the next day, he'd show up Johnny on the spot. And so when they had a water loss, he became a really easy button for them to push, regardless of whatever national account corporate was cramming down their neck. Yeah. And that was a big eye-opener for us when we discovered that. First of all, yeah, it caused us to shore up those relationships and not take those national accounts that we had access to for granted. But it also spoke to the power of those routine day-to-day services. And that goes back to go to university. It all starts there, educating them on understanding that particular hook, that angle.

57:52 You're 100% right. And it does allow an opportunity to grow with a client when you can provide that, for the most part, weekly service where they see you all the time. So that's where we're headed. A relationship's only going to last if you put the effort in. Unfortunately, relationships are never ending, right? Are you guys married? Yep. Not married yet. I have a girlfriend, so it's funny I'm using the analogy because I'm not married, but I'm going to use it anyway. If you left your wife home for a year, never communicated, just disappeared, and then came back, what do you think would happen to your relationship? It would certainly be hurt, right? A national account is a lot like an arranged marriage. Franchisors, they bring in a national account, they merge the person with the national account, the national account and them have to like each other.

58:36 And that doesn't just happen, right? You arrange them, but they have to actually like each other. And depending on some, obviously some accounts you can't break out of as easily, but there's plenty of times where if you go in there and they love you and you're communicating and you're treating them like the way you said, you're going to win the business. And so, I mean, listen, It's a great way to say no to a salesperson coming through the door. Oh, we already have a national account. But I would argue more times than not, you can still break through that. And my favorite line that I've heard in sales, not just in restoration, but is when someone already has someone, you say, that's great. What do you love about them? Because when you say, what do you not like about them? People are like, oh, like it's a sales trick. But you go, what do you love about them? They tell you everything. And then you're like, eh, anything you don't love and you find out and you make your way.

59:20 But I've always found when it comes to going back to my uncle who taught me this, go take a property manager out golfing and then to some cigars if they like cigars and then to dinner the next time and baseball game and hang out and get to know one another on a personal level and see what happens after six or seven hangouts if they're still not giving you business. Like find a way to get in there on the personal level And I mean, that's probably how we poached John Ortega. I mean, I was sending him a lot of messages and slipping in the DMs, if you will, of LinkedIn. Commenting on his posts. But seriously, we're this little company, but you build a real relationship enough that people start to take notice of you and you can get in there. I think that's the key, especially if you're not the big, bad restoration company.

1:00:02 You're actually hungry to build your business. I say that all the time. Forget about anyone in your community. Who's the hungriest to build business? You're going to win that way. It doesn't matter if they've got some big company behind them. Same with us. Vote as a franchise. If you're not a franchise, it doesn't matter. If you've got the will to make it happen, that's what's going to win, not because they have a national account or not. Have you found, just because I'm curious about this, you guys sound like you're fairly marketing forward. That's obviously some skill set that was developed early on in the development of Voda. Do you guys find a higher level of success in terms of some of that digital SEO targeting when it comes to the fact that you guys can be a cleaning forward franchise versus only trying to digitally advertise or market the restoration EMS services of the business?

1:00:48 Yeah. So the hardest industry to generate leads online is personal injury law. The second is restoration. So actually last night I was out to dinner and I was with a personal injury attorney. It's a very big business here in the tri-state, spending several millions on Google ads, etc. And I was joking around, you're in the hardest industry second to restoration. Cleaning is a lot easier from SEO components. So absolutely... Same with like, you know, everything with Google Guaranteed. I can't tell you how many of our franchise owners are getting in through cleaning jobs through Google Guaranteed because the price per lead is much cheaper. And then that's leading to restoration jobs. I think the entire cleaning market online is a little bit easier to break through. But with that said, our franchise owners come into the business knowing they need to spend a lot on marketing.

1:01:32 And they know that the leads are what they cost for restoration jobs. So I would definitely say being able to forward invest into marketing is key in our business model, not being afraid to do that. I know some people, they feel like, how can I be giving all this money to an online portal? I look at it like a necessary evil. I'll say this. If you had started a different business, let's say you own coffee shops, you know, you'd have rent, right? You have to pay rent, whether it snows, whether it's COVID, whether it's... You have to pay it. But if it's up or down, you still got to pay rent. I think when it comes to purchasing online leads, you should look at it like rent and you have to come up with the money no matter what, whether business is up or down. I get... You could argue that when it's down, you should actually buy more. But I think anyone that does this business or any business...

1:02:14 If you're aggressive with your marketing, and obviously you've got your sales and your follow-up down, but the numbers will work themselves out. If you focus on CAC, customer acquisition costs, not, oh, God, I paid $1,000 for this lead and they didn't buy. You've got to look at the bigger picture of the numbers. I'm assuming too in that there's maybe a little bit more focus in terms of what teams are then doing as they steward those leads. Because if it is a priority right out of the gate, I wonder if there's a little bit higher emphasis on the competency of understanding, measuring that, and then making sure that you're maximizing those opportunities so that you're not spending the money and then obviously not converting it or turning it.

1:02:55 Ah. Right? Right. I mean, listen, not to pitch Voda, but franchise owners at Voda, I always think it's crazy how things that we're talking about on some of our coaching calls, I'm thinking to myself, it took me like, I only learned that a year ago. Like you're in your first month of business and you've got this data reporting and we're looking at customer acquisition costs and we're tracking attribution, etc. Most people don't start their business doing that. our franchise owners, because they're coming into a little bit more sophisticated technology and marketing, we're really big on following the reporting. And I love this saying, if we're going to make a decision, go with mine. But if the data says differently, let's go with the data. Some Netflix CEO thing, I think it was something like that. But use data to make a decision.

1:03:37 feel like the leads are working. Angie's not working. Look at the data. Are you actually getting a return? And then the last thing I'll say on this is like, if you just launched your business and you're getting even a two to one or even a one to one, you're not losing money cleaning carpets, for example, and you're buying leads off of Angie's thumb tech, whatever. That's not a loss. You're getting your trucks out there, you're getting reviews. And also getting three or four times your dollar is not a loss either as you build your business. I think people try to get these crazy returns. I think if you put a dollar into the slot machine and it spits out $4 in the digital advertising analogy, I think you're winning. Yeah, I just wonder how much of us just aren't... It's just overwhelming.

1:04:17 I think that from a data analysis perspective, I think the context is difficult. And I don't know that very many people are either bullish enough or competent enough to give us a very strong perspective on what is appropriate, what is realistic, right? It's almost like opinions versus, there's gotta be some industry averages that we can lean into and gain some kind of confidence in in the early levels of trying this digital spend or this marketing spend. And it just feels like people aren't super bullish about that. Like your commitment, like, hey, you know, you throw a dollar in, you get three, four out. It's a good thing. Well, I think an answer to that would be just go look at trusty new friend ChatGPT and ask, what's a good advertising return on marketing?

1:04:59 It does it agnostic to the industry. Obviously, margins play a role, but we're in a high margin business, right? So if you look up online, 401 is a pretty normal return. Like if I was selling $100,000 revenue product, I might spend $25,000 to get a customer. And if I'm selling a $400 product, I'm probably gonna spend $100 to get a customer. And I think that's relevant to home services or whatever business. I think restoration sits in that same bucket. And listen, sometimes you'll get a 10 to one as you refine things. But I just think if you can say, you know what, in the beginning, if I spend 25% on marketing, it's not the end of the world. But the other challenge, at least for our owners, is you can't spend 25% of your $1,000 in revenue.

1:05:40 You got to spend 25% of where you want to go, right? You got to invest ahead of time. So yeah, that's a tough one. I know it's emotional to buy leads. It is, yeah. Well, and I think you identified a key thing is that you guys are not necessarily hunting for bootstrap entrepreneurs. You guys are really pursuing franchisees, franchise partners that are better capitalized, have a little bit of a war chest to come into the business with, right? Are able to deploy capital strategically. And not everybody can do that. Not everybody comes into their first opening their first business with well capitalized. In fact, most don't, right? Yeah, yeah. But I will say, like, it's funny, because if anyone's listening to this, and they're part of a franchise or thinking about joining a franchise, or they're owning their own business, I always ask people, how many of us are accounting experts?

1:06:28 And no one ever raised their hand. How about a doctor, like medical people? Your doctor tells you something, do you tell them no and do something? No, right? Whenever people buy a business, for whatever reason, two weeks later, they're officially a CMO. They become a marketing expert and they know better than the vendor that's been doing this for, you know, whatever amount of years. I mean, you guys know the space. There's only so many ways to buy leads in restoration. I don't think... you're going to figure out how to generate leads better than the online, better than these companies. That's all they do for dozens of years and they spend tons of money on it. I think that that's a necessary evil. You put your money towards it. You try to optimize it as much as you can. But again, focus on building those relationships and kind of do both, control what you can control.

1:07:11 I really like that the way that you summarized that earlier with it. It's the cost of rent, right? Like you got to build it into the plan and you just execute against that spend knowing that it's a necessary evil. Like it's rent. We got to pay rent even if we would like not to pay rent. You got to pay the rent. So... Yeah, I've seen people turn off lead providers and they're like, ah, it's principal. Screw those guys. It's not worth it. I hate to say that, but you're not winning. I once had someone say to me, I don't like spending money on the online lead vendors because I'm fueling, let's call it a thumbtack or Angie's or whatever. And listen, I know people are shopping in those services, but they felt like they were fueling their competitor against their own SEO.

1:07:52 And the reality is you not buying those leads isn't going to stop that they're still going to sell the leads. And it's kind of a silly principle concept to boycott a lead vendor because they didn't give you a credit one time. Like, it's just, it's not worth it. I would do it until you don't have to anymore. And it's motivating, but don't turn it off and then end up having no lead flow coming in. Yeah, you're the one suffering your principle there at first. Yeah, as much as possible. I mean, this just echoes, I think, a principle all of us can live by is do our best to keep our emotions out of marketing decisions and business decisions and to lean on the data. We can use our instincts, but our emotional reaction to things is usually not going to take us where we want to go, right?

1:08:35 I hate getting checked on that too. Hey, guys, I don't know if this is appropriate or not, but I'm just thinking being sensitive to time. Here's a question for you. And John or Dan, both of you, I'm interested in your input. From your guys' perspective, now granted, it sounds a bit like your avatar that you're chasing for these franchise opportunities, maybe a little bit different, right? Or a little bit nuanced or more niched. Yeah. In the early phases, when you guys are onboarding excited entrepreneurs, business owners into the program, into the mission, can you guys identify the top one or two mental shifts that you see commonly are absolutely mandatory early on and for whatever reason, universally very difficult for people to lean into and execute on?

1:09:23 Question makes sense? Yes. It makes two different perspectives, right? Just based on where you sit. I don't know. So I look at it from my background in education and training. A lot of these owners and new entrepreneurs, although are gung-ho, excited about knocking out whatever initiatives are required, it's getting their mindset to go back to learning something somewhat new. So education, you know, just teaching. They're so successful in the world that they're in, but they're no longer happy there. Now they want to become their own entrepreneur, but it doesn't happen overnight. You now have to become a student again to an extent.

1:10:06 And, you know, just working on the mental strain with some of these entrepreneurs on just, hey, it's okay to be a student again, to learn this. We're going to get you to a point where you're going to bring in the right people and the right talent. But you have to learn this new book, this new topic, you know. So just me personally in just dealing with entrepreneurs, new entrepreneurs who know nothing about the game. Well, I've come from a corporate background, then, you know, telecommunications, finance, and now all of a sudden want to go service provider industry. So it's just changing the mindset. So I think it's just, you know, the learning aspect of it.

1:10:47 Some people are just a little bit hard to get them to bring the walls down and understand. You got to learn this a little bit. I was dealing with a gentleman recently in our network where I just see the high level career. And now he's running the show and we're dealing with some of the behind the scene headaches of creating an organization. You know, you're not accustomed to that coming from that high level of where you're at because people are doing that behind the scenes for you. You know, so just being able to paint that little bit of a picture, which, hey, you ever take 30, 45 days, they're drinking it up and they're going, go, man, go, go, woman, go. But it's just getting them to understand, hey, you're not that smart no more.

1:11:28 We got to learn something new. And we'll get you to that point where now you're back on the top. You know it all. Yeah. Thanks for that. Thanks for that. Long answer, but Dan? Well, first of all, I agree with everything you said. And then I would say, I think the biggest challenge with a new franchise owner that's never owned a business is that entrepreneurship is sexy online, right? You got all the Gary V's and all these different influencers, Instagram influencers. Entrepreneurship's hard. I don't care if you're growing a huge company and things are going great, it's still hard. You still have sleepless nights. I have sleepless nights. You still have negative things pop in your inbox when you're on vacation, when you're... not on vacation. It's just the reality.

1:12:09 And the more good you have, the more balls in the air, you're going to have 10% is going to be bad and it's going to be 10% of more. So it's going to be a lot of bad stuff. Over time, you become desensitized to it and it becomes part of your, I'm sure you guys have the same kind of mindset. I almost oddly like problems. I deal with them and they move on. But I think a lot of people, when they first buy a business, they don't realize how different it really is. I'll give you a great example. You were a med device rep for Johnson & Johnson or something or whatever. You're a med device rep for a big company. And you very well may be a great salesperson. You are. That's why you did well at that role. But you don't realize, and I've been through this too, when I was starting out in sales on my own, you don't realize how much weight that name you were working for actually carried.

1:12:53 how much the door's actually opened because you're calling as Johnson & Johnson or whatever. And so when you go with your little shingle of no matter what, if it's a vote, it's still brand new in the territory. And you go to the property manager, they don't care about you. And you don't have any credibility. And no matter what we do, that's just going to be the reality. Unless you're buying, I don't know, I guess there's some more established franchise. Maybe it has a little bit more, but not really. It's not Johnson & Johnson, right? And so I think taking ownership of... What you were doing before doesn't translate. This is going to be a lot harder. You're going to make a lot more money probably in the long run, but it's going to be harder. You're going to be more fulfilled, but it's going to be harder. And then the last thing is taking ownership. Like in franchising, one of the things I don't like about franchising is this kind of like deferral of responsibility.

1:13:38 So like the franchise owner will be like, this is going okay, but like you guys aren't doing enough of this. And the franchise will be like, what do you mean? It's your business. We're doing what we're supposed to do. I think in a perfect world, you both actually raise the bar. So in our situation, it's like, you told us you're a great mayor of the town. You're going to go out there and network. We're looking at the scorecard. You didn't hit on five property managers today. You got to do your part. With that said, when someone tells us, I don't know, we got to do more training on Exactimate and how to utilize the training, how do you do estimates better? We can't just put our hands up and say, no, it's your business. That's your problem. No, let's raise the bar as a franchise system. So I think as an owner in general, it's looking at things.

1:14:19 And when something is not good enough, don't tell yourself it's better than your competition. When that homeowner's crazy, oh, the homeowner's crazy. They want more. No, maybe you could raise the bar. Maybe they're not crazy. Maybe your service isn't good enough. And so I'd say to wrap that up, looking in the mirror more times than pointing the finger is the number one way to grow as a business owner. I think that's huge. It's hugely powerful. I remember when we have a consultant and when we started working with that consultant, our internal dialogue was, we were all very excited to know we were going to be banging our head against the right walls. None of us had that. the illusion that we weren't going to be banging our head against walls to make forward progress.

1:15:02 We could just have the sense of confidence it was the right walls. And I think we forget that when we come into a franchise system where it's not silver bullets, like a franchise doesn't make your business work for you. You're still going to have to put in the reps. You're still going to have to earn the scars, but hopefully we can center people on the right walls to be in their head against. So eventually they'll get through that wall and get on the other side and reap some benefit of the opportunity. But I love that commitment to taking responsibility of what you can control. I think that's huge. Yeah, there's no way to dodge that. It doesn't matter whether you're part of a system or you're a one-off starting something from scratch, right? That mentality is so important for any of us, for sure. And it applies to life, right?

1:15:43 Again, I told you I'm not married yet, but I'm working on it and trying to be. And I've learned in relationships, right? It's like, what am I doing wrong? I'm probably doing something not as well as I could that's causing this reaction. So it's the same thing with your employees. Like, oh, my employees, they don't care about the business. Well, what are you doing to help them care about the business? How are you incentivizing them? Are you training them properly? More likely than not, you don't necessarily have a bad person. You're maybe not managing them as well as you think you are. Astound. Right there is a great place. Yeah. To probably wrap up, man. Guys, what a really fun conversation. I think anybody that was listening, both these guys are very capable of telling their story and creating some vision around the things that they're excited about.

1:16:24 Dan, you have got a ton of steam and momentum behind you. You're a young leader. And I think that the reason that you're being so profoundly successful is exactly the things that you shared with us today. Yeah. You clearly have people that respect you and want to follow you. And I think it's pretty clear why, just based on some of the perspective you shared with us during the show today. And John, as always, man, it's just so great to get your perspective. And it's also, to be honest, it's really fun to see you kind of inspired. I think that was the thing that caught Brandon and I when we met up at the experience was like, it was clear. Like you were inspired in this new vision and direction, this thing that you're a part of. And that's always really fun to see. And so, well, awesome guys.

1:17:07 Have a good rest of your week. And I have no doubt we'll talk more in the future. That's right. Thank you, gentlemen. Appreciate it. Thanks, guys. Have a great holiday. Yeah, you guys too. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart & Boots. And if you're enjoying the show, but you love this episode, please hit follow, formerly known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.