Ep 170 - "Coaching vs Training"

0:00 Wow. How many of you have listened to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast? I can't tell you that reaction, how much that means to us. Welcome back to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brennan. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. This new camera angle makes my arms look smaller than yours. I'm noticing that and I really appreciate it. I thought you did that on purpose. No, I don't. I didn't. And I am not happy with it. Sup, dude. I beat you to it. I saw that. I literally, people won't know this because it'll get edited out, but I literally heard you take your breath and getting ready to snatch the opening remark.

0:42 You're so funny, dude. I know. All right. So we're going to talk about, all right. Oh, okay. All right. So if you're brand new to... If you're brand new to the Head, Heart, and Boots podcast, well, then you don't know what's going on. You're like, oh my gosh, what's happening? Who are these guys? So the Head, Heart, and Boots show is what Brandon and I think of as our founders podcast. We're the founders of Floodlight Consulting Group, amongst other things. And this is our show where we kind of, we talk about industry things. We talk about the service industries. We talk philosophy. We talk marriage. It all comes up. thread here is this is a show for service leaders.

1:24 And the whole head, heart, and boots thing is we want to speak to the whole person, right? We're not business people and dads. We're not business people and husbands. We're not business people and golfers on the weekend. We're just people. Right. And so we get into all the things here on the show. For those of you who have no idea who Floodlight Consulting Group is, we'll certainly Google us and other people will tell you who we are and you can find our website and there's a lot of stuff there. But essentially, we partner with restorers to help them grow and scale their companies and create a ton of enterprise value along the way through a tailored approach, working with consultants who are all past owners and They've been in your shoes. They've been down that road already. So if you're kicking the tires on consultants or coaches or whatever you want to call them, you owe it to yourself to go to floodlightgrp.com and at least check out what our team offers.

2:13 Yeah, and at least hang around and listen to a show or two. Yeah. If this is the first time that you're checking us out. Oh, by the way, actually, so something fun coming up, guys. We are, so we don't have the drawing item yet. Yeah. It's still top secret and in development. But we're getting ready to throw out a bit of an invitation and a drawing. And so we're obviously on a push for followers. And obviously some great Google reviews are super helpful as well. Or I guess in this particular case, Apple podcast reviews or that sort of thing. Anyways, we're really excited to get more traction there and invite more people into the sphere of, so that we can exchange some of these ideas and just remind people they don't have to go it alone.

2:57 And so we'll be making some announcements on our social channels here over the next several weeks about that. So keep an eye on it. And we're going to sling some really cool swag. So pay attention, be monitoring that. I think on this first go, I think we're going to be more in the outdoor activity zone. Do you like my idea? I do. I like what's happening. Oh man, if we go that route, guys, it's fun. There's some cool stuff going on. Can I say one more thing too? A lot of you that are listening are restorers. You might be a project manager, a GM, a technician, an owner, whatever. We're continuing to get more and more feedback from, from outside the industry of people that are roofers or retail construction guys or remodelers or something that are listening to show.

3:40 So if you're a restorer and you have a show that you really like, you might consider it sending it to your drywall guy. Yeah, for sure. Right. Or sending it to your plumber partner that you use or whatever, because, you know, we're just hearing from a lot of people that the stuff that all of us deal with and struggle with and learn and think about in the restoration industry, look, we're all the same. Yeah. Right. The services are the services. We're in the service industry. And so a lot of these shows, as all of you know who've been regular listeners, it almost doesn't matter what trade you're in. We're talking about just the real stuff of owning businesses, having families, all that kind of thing. So feel free to think about sending it to your subs or other folks you work with, adjusters even that you work with and enjoy talking to.

4:22 So here's where we're going today. As many of you that listen on a fairly regular basis, you guys know that a lot of our content or what we decide to talk about is because it's stuff we're currently wrestling with and have wrestled with many times in our own businesses and past teams that we've operated with. And one of the things that is just so common, and we see it inside our client book, we see it inside just our peers, businesses, our friends and family sphere, There's just this trouble, I guess, when we think that we've trained our team, we've downloaded some content, we've shared with them the why, we've done a great job of giving them the principles of what we're trying to accomplish and what it is that we're going to be changing or modifying.

5:07 And yet we just then proceed for next several months to be frustrated potentially with the outcome or the adoption. And it really just ends up not moving the needle as much as we anticipated and certainly not as much as we were excited about before we launched into this new endeavor or initiative. And one of the things you'll also see is that at the end of the day, man, like so much of what we all know or learn or are taught or leveraging in our favor for success, look, most of these ideas are not new. They're just a reminder in more cases than not of some real tried and true advice that's been relevant for a long, long time. And this idea that we're going to tackle today is We are certainly not the brain children of it.

5:52 This is not a new idea or concept. It really is a reminder on how important the basics are to the success of the organization. And what we want to talk about is this idea or the difference between coaching versus training. And I think just to kind of get us launched, here's kind of the way that Chris and I and our team look at this. So think training as knowledge transfer. And again, we're not making this stuff up. These are not new concepts by any stretch of the imagination, but training is knowledge transfer, okay? And then coaching and what makes it so valuable is that that's where and how we get real skill transfer, okay? And if we think about when we're driving new initiatives, many of you guys that listen to this show are committed to growth in several different arenas.

6:38 One, you're committed to your own personal growth and probably a strong chance that that's true if you're listening to our show. And I think outside of that, based on your role or the position inside your sphere inside the company, you're going to be a part of that. you're probably connected to organizational growth and advancement as well. And I think that if we don't understand this coaching versus training concept, I think that it is a strong chance that it's going to neutralize the success of our business or slow our growth and change and our ability to adapt. And certainly it can affect you and your confidence as a leader. or an influencer with inside your organization because we get so frustrated when we believe we've done an outstanding job communicating what needs to be communicated.

7:21 And then the change just doesn't follow. It doesn't happen. You know, this is such a big topic that you're bringing up. A couple of things that come out for me right now is just even thinking back to early days of yours and I's consulting, you know, when we were working directly with clients, I think some of it's ego. And I think all of us as leaders, it doesn't matter if you're an owner or a department manager or a PM or an estimator, whatever, a new admin manager. I think for a lot of us, especially in kind of our first round of leadership, we want to be the one that's given all the answers. Mm-hmm. Like we see that as our role. Is my downline people, if they don't know something or they're not doing something right, that I'm going to give them the right thing to do.

8:02 I'm going to give them the answer to the question that they have. And I feel like in hindsight, while we were able to have, still have a huge impact because giving people the right answers does have an impact. You can impact people in a positive way. And that was a lot of early days. When we first started consulting, we were consulting out of our experience and, And helping correct wrong thinking, giving people right thinking, giving them the right answers to the problem in front of them. And I think what we weren't fully grasping at the time and has become more and more apparent as we've learned and grown, and as we've also onboarded other consultants that have kind of shown us other things. As you start adding more and more people to your team, and I feel like we experienced this in the other teams we've led, as you start getting more and more people on your team, and in some cases, higher and higher caliber people, because we're all trying to hire the best people we can, you start to notice things that weren't super obvious before.

8:57 But one of those things being that in order to actually coach somebody, and in order to actually help transform somebody into the best version of themselves, whether it's a downline employee or a business partner or even like we have to help them shift how they perceive things and how they think about a particular thing. Yeah. And when, and I noticed this with my kids and I'm trying to be, oh man, I'm trying to be more present to this because I, I just tend to be a teller. I see a behavior in my children or a choice that they're making and I just need to set, I, there's something in me that just like springs up and I just want to tell them the right thing. Yeah, for sure. You know, because I don't want them to suffer. I don't want them to go too far down the road and then realize the error of their ways, right?

9:40 And so I'm just like, hell, oh, you should do this instead. And of course, how much better? Really, two parts. One is if I can help them come to the right answer themselves. Yeah. That's the gold standard. Yeah. But then two, if I can ask great questions that help them look at the problem or the opportunity or the situation differently, then... That's coaching. Yeah. And I used to think that coaching was telling or showing people the right way, the thing, the best practice. And frankly, I operated out of that almost exclusively. Like when before Floodlight, I had an executive coaching business and I just, I wasn't coaching. I was- You were telling the stuff out of things.

10:22 I was entertaining them with great answers. Yeah. You know, I was like really great at making friends and getting them to trust me and tell me things. And then I was telling them things and they were wooed and wowed. But I noticed my impact was limited because I was giving them answers to specific situations. Yeah. And then we'd encounter another situation that was a little bit different. And it was like we were starting from scratch again. Yeah, that's a good point. You know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's kind of like the most obvious, I think, once you see it, limiter to the whole telling kind of approach. Well, I like where you were going there. So let's actually just do that. Let's finish kind of defining the difference.

11:04 And certainly lean in post that. So Chris just laid out a really great example. The difference between, let's say, training and coaching as an example is in a coaching environment, we're asking questions. We're soliciting the individual to engage the content, to engage the training maybe that they had gone through. And now we're trying to get them to think about real world application. And I think what you just highlighted is in an environment where we're not telling and we're asking questions, you're teaching people how to fish, right? They're able to understand a principle and how it applied in this situation. But I think also it keeps their head up high enough where they can see where that's likely applicable again in a different type of situation.

11:47 And so I think that's a common mistake. And I think we've all, and continue, to experience those differences in the way that our team behaves. I mean, how many times do we go through training with our techs and we think to ourselves, okay, they're ready to rock and roll and they get out and they run into one, the very first slight hiccup in the process and they're completely blown out of commission because we told them a lot of stuff but we didn't teach them to think about at a higher level? How are they approaching the situation? So I think the questions as a powerful tool is a big identifier in terms of the difference between training and coaching. I think another thing that you see is, you know, in a training environment, not saying these don't happen, but it's less common, I would say, or you would be shifting into a coaching environment when you begin to do things like role play.

12:38 So again, training, remember, right? I'm downloading information. I'm sharing it through a deck. I'm sharing it through this verbal exchange. I might be showing graphics, but I'm still training. I'm downloading information from me to this person. And we begin to move into a coaching environment when we start to practice it, when we put it into play. And so role playing is more of a characteristic of you beginning to coach someone that's I think another way to think about this is that in a training environment, the time fix or the time spend is more based on the curriculum. So it's, hey, this thing is going to take 30 minutes. This is a 60-minute training seminar.

13:19 And I think what you see in a coaching environment is an openness to remain in the moment so that you can fully, I guess, extract, if you will, what needs to happen in that situation. And I would say maybe another thing to consider is a real sense of awareness and presence in that conversation. Because if we're coaching, we're not just downloading information, meaning it's not a one-way communication. It means we need to be prepared to receive and receive well because that should influence ultimately part of your approach to, The posture that you're taking, some of the language that you're using then in that coaching environment.

14:01 So again, I think another characteristic in a coaching environment is it's a two-way conversation versus a one-way, a downloading of information. And then I would say the last one that kind of comes to mind for me is I think there's a little bit more depth in what the outcome is. In training, it's like, hey, I need them to know this stuff. I need them to understand this concept, so I'm going to train it. But then when we move into this coaching environment, there's almost more of a digging down and trying to connect the value of what this individual is learning and how it has a positive or a profound effect on their role in the organization or their personal life.

14:42 You begin to move into what's in it for me. But I think to do it well, it's this idea that you are actually engaged for the sake of the other person. Maybe that's the easiest. Just think about that. Training environment. I'm telling. Do you need to be super engaged? Not really. Like we're just, again, we're downloading information, right? And I think when we're in a coaching environment, it's more like, what can this person achieve with this? What's in it for them? What's the outcome that I can influence or potentially take part in, you know? There's an angle on this that I've been thinking about a lot over the last few days. I had a really good conversation with Wayne, and Wayne initiated it.

15:23 Wayne had a bit of an accountability, a conflict conversation that he wanted to have with me. So there's actually a couple of really interesting concepts here. We may need to develop this other... idea in a different show, but our mentor that we look to for our mentoring and coaching, and we had a meeting with them in Chicago this past year. And I remember one of the concepts that he taught us was the idea of having conflict meetings. Do you remember this? Yeah. It's really cool. And it's just a very transparent sort of feedback rich way of dealing with conflict inside the workplace and within your workplace relationships. And frankly, it's probably really awesome for marriage and children and everything else to just be very direct. And he describes, say, approaching the person that you have a conflict with and saying, hey, I have a conflict with you and I'd like to schedule some time for us to talk through it together.

16:10 How does tomorrow at one o'clock or with three be better, right? And you schedule it and not give a ton of detail. Let the weight of it of, hey, there's a conflict between us that I want to address and yet create a space to address that. And so Wayne had one of these conflict meetings he wanted to have with me. And where I'm going with this is that Wayne took a very interesting approach that I think is a really great best practice when it comes to coaching. And he tied his feedback to me, the nature of the conflict, to my values. This was really powerful. This is totally in line with what we were just talking about. Incredibly powerful. And so what he essentially said to me when he opened the conversation was, Hey, Chris, you know, I've got a conflict with this kind of pattern of behavior that I've experienced with you.

16:58 We're a relatively small team here at Footlight. Very much so. Everything every single one of us does has an impact on the rest of the team. 100%. I'm no exception to that. And so Wayne had been kind of observing this pattern of behavior, and it was affecting him, and inevitably it was spilling over and affecting some of the other people on the team. But most importantly... Wayne believed it was in conflict with what I say about myself and what I've articulated as sort of my personal values and the kind of person that I want to be. And, you know, those who listen to the show, you hear me talk about like, I aspire to be a really good person and to have an impact on people.

17:38 And there's so many different facets of that. Well, Wayne felt like this certain behavior that I'd been expressing was in conflict with who I say I am. Yeah. Yeah. And so he brought it up to me. He said, hey, look, I wanted to talk to you about this because number one, I care about you as a fellow colleague. I love being a part of the floodlight team. And three, I really believe that this is in conflict with who you really want to be. Yeah. Like, I believe that you actually want to be this person and this thing is totally in conflict with it. And then he went on to, you know, identify the behavior, talk through the impact he felt like he was having, et cetera. And he just said almost like a, you know, a grandfatherly comment.

18:18 He's like, look, I don't need you to, I don't need like an apology or anything of that sort. I just really wanted to ask you to think about, just reaffirm for yourself, is this really a value of yours? Yeah. And if it is, consider the conflict. Yeah. Don't try through willpower. Yeah. To be like, well, I'll never do that again. He's like, I really am just asking you, I just want, I didn't know if you were, if you'd thought about it this way or if this was maybe a blind spot. And I would just ask you to consider this connection between who you say you are and how this behavior has been in conflict with it. And I was just like, whoa, such, such leadership gold. Yeah. And it was profoundly impactful to me.

19:00 That's right. Because was I aware of that behavior? Yeah. Well, I was. I wasn't conscious to it. I wasn't actively thinking, okay, this is having a negative downstream effect on my partners, my team. So I just, I wasn't present to it. And when he made that connection for me, I was able to make a really profoundly tight connection of, yeah, no, this is right. Yeah, no, I didn't. I lost track of, of the values connection. That's right. And ultimately then, what's the outcome? It's going to influence a change in behavior. Yes. And that's really the goal of coaching, right? And so, I mean, that was kind of master level, honestly. Yeah, for sure. You know, it's probably for most of you listening, it's probably not lost on you.

19:43 So owner versus team member. Yeah, right. Obviously. Yeah, yeah. You know, yeah. I figuratively, like I signed this person's check. This is coming out of, it's our money, right? That's right. Yes. So it's a masterclass that that was a master example. But I think what you keyed in on, and I think it's worth taking some notes on, is what is the outcome? Like, what are we expecting to experience if we're coaching someone? And I think that is the kind of gold standard. We want a change in behavior. And we want that because it makes them better, stronger, faster, more effective. It changes their influence in our organization. And then ultimately we want our team to benefit from that change in behavior, that adoption of skill because we coached and not just told.

20:32 And I'm incredibly grateful for it. And AnswerForce. We tend not to give the attention to our call intake that I think we really ought to have as restorers. And of course, one of the biggest challenges we have with our call intake, whether it's an in-house receptionist or a service like AnswerForce, is what do you do when your receptionist goes out to lunch? Well, AnswerForce makes that very easy to solve for, right? They're 24-7. You have a receptionist or a call intake person that's out for maternity leave, out on vacation, etc., etc. AnswerForce has a solution to all of those things. And I think, too, it also solves for us having a very consistent, repeatable call intake process. We all know how important that is. 100%. And the cool thing is actually we just hung out with these guys and they let us know, let us in on some big feature updates that have recently been pushed through the system.

21:20 So first, verified contacts, right? So verified contacts, basically it allows the system to understand that this is a repeat caller. And then it allows them to auto capture and fill those details as part of the intake process. So smoother, more professional intake. Much easier to kind of give that client that impression that, hey, this isn't the first time you've called, right? Yeah, and we'll listen to the rest of these sets because I think they're super applicable to our commercial opportunities. So specialized scripting, okay? This is great because this is everything from holiday shifts, after-hour shifts. I mean, you name it. There's different reasons, right? Or different layers of the cake, if you will, just based on what's going on in terms of call volume, what's going on time of day. And so with specialized scripting, the script then will match that.

22:03 And so it's shifting live, if you will, along with that kind of richer context of what's actually happening in the business. Then this other thing, I thought this was super cool, is dedicated phone numbers. So going back to that repeat client or that key client or customer, we now can associate a specific phone number to them. And so what happens is, is they get received very quickly. uniquely, right? So I can imagine creating a custom script for that client. We now can recognize a repeat caller and autofill and speed up their intake. And then on top of that, there's a specialized number that's dedicated to them. So you really get to marry up that professional service offering, right? That we're promising, if you will, during the prospecting.

22:45 And right from the jump, if you've got a commercial client with specific needs or specific expectations, build that into the script at call intake. Yeah, it's super powerful, super powerful. Another one is just access to information wherever you are. So I don't know how many of you are already currently using AnswerForce. You should take it seriously in terms of getting a demo and checking them out. But if and when you shift over to them as a partner, the cool thing is now is that you've got access to all this data, all this information on the go from anywhere on your mobile device. And so... You can literally check inbound, outbound calls. You can listen to recordings. So actively coach the team kind of like midstream, right? And so again, just a ton of efficiency, a ton of automation and just higher levels of customization coming out of AnswerForce.

23:30 And it is so stinking affordable. This isn't just for big, multi-million dollar companies. This is for you that's still working out of your home shop, your garage. And it's also for you that are running a $25 million operation with four locations. It's just, it's pretty extraordinary. They work with some of the biggest companies in our industry and many of the smallest ones as well. Okay. Actionable. So guys, we have talked about our friendship and relationship to these guys for a long time. Many of you know, in the recent probably year, and over the last several months, just this hyper focus on the efficiency and quality of our estimating, right? Like at the end of the day, our cashflow is heavily impacted by our team's skill and competency around writing a really comprehensive sheet and really making sure that the scope is accurate.

24:17 And one of the powerful things that Actionable has is their actual Xactimate profile. And this profile is a live AI tool that's monitoring you as you write the estimate. And as you're implementing specific line items, it's helping you be sure that you've really taken into full account all the individual elements and line items associated with this element of the scope that you're trying to accomplish. And I'm not going to highlight any specific teams, but we have heard robust numbers from teams using this. We're hearing everything from 5%, 6%, even 8% top line growth, specifically from the quality of their estimates increasingly. I remember when they rolled this out to you that one of the use cases or part of the value that they were trying to hit on is the ability for us to bring up a new estimator quickly up to the standard and competency and the results ultimately of the more experienced estimators on the team, right?

25:14 So this is an incredible onboarding and training tool to get somebody up to where they're very, very competent and producing quality estimates just that much faster. Way faster. And just one last thing I kind of want to hyperindex on is they have just an absolute boatload of white papers and F9 supporting notes. And so this is something that you could participate in being a member with Actionable Insights. But guys, we all know that getting our estimates approved in that negotiation phase is hard right now. It just feels like every carrier is significantly understaffed. They're fighting for error. We're fighting for error. And anything we can do to reduce that friction is better. And so the better we are at providing really good support for what we're calling out in our scope and why we're calling for it, the better.

25:58 And so these white papers, these F9 support notes are super powerful. Man, it's been a little while, but we've been kind of refueling the relationship with CNR quite a bit lately. And that's been good, man. I think both teams got so dang busy. We had a tough time kind of locking in and getting some face time together. But the team over at CNR has been great for our industry, you guys. You know, we've often referred to Michelle as a friend of the industry. She really is keyed in on giving us what we need in terms of tools, communication, intel on the industry, and... And so we just continue to encourage you guys, participate, make sure that you're receiving your quarterly copies and that you're getting all the online content that just comes in boatloads from their team.

26:40 So CNR Magazine, guys, pay attention, make sure that you're participating and getting your intel from that team as well. Liftify, bro. Yeah. Liftify, you know, it's interesting. Yesterday, I was just seeing one of our clients was getting awarded their 750 Google Review trophy. And they were already talking about hitting 1,000. 1,000. That's right. Which somebody has done. Yes. One of our clients has done it. It's remarkable. And I think the most remarkable thing that people are discovering, and we're seeing this every single day with our clients, is that when you start upping the volume of Google reviews you're getting consistently week after week, the recency, when you're getting the recency dialed in and just meaning every week you're adding Google reviews to your profile, dramatic jumps in organic...

27:28 phone calls and lead gen. And of course, who doesn't want that? Every single one of us, including Floodlight, we want that. And that's why we've indexed on, we use Liftify to build up our Google reviews. So it's a simple turnkey service. They've really created a process for capturing the most quality Google reviews from the jobs that you're already getting. So if you want to get more work... grow your revenue just off of the existing work you're already getting. Liftify is a big part of how to do that. And it's simple. It's very, very cost effective. From our experience with Liftify and what we've seen with our clients, significantly better value and better results than many of the other platforms that some of you might already be trying.

28:08 So if you're not happy with the number of Google reviews you're getting, you need to reach out to Liftify. And I think as a point of reference, it's worth us saying. Liftify expects 20% to 25% conversion. So think about that within your own numbers. If you're doing 1,000 jobs a year, you should be adding 200 to 250 Google reviews to your profile every single year. If you're performing under that, You owe it to yourself to reach out to liftify.com forward slash floodlight. You know, one last thing to add to that as part of their kind of more recent integration of AI or advancing that integration of AI. One of the big focuses for their team is gathering more live project data and analytics for you guys. And so really what this is focused on is equipping all of us to create better customer experiences.

28:53 so not only are they keyed in and driving google uh reviews for us but now they've actually turned the corner and began developing toolkits for us that use liftify to actually be getting information that can help us modify our service delivery to create better client experiences super powerful midstream we're talking mid-job yeah wow super powerful all right liftify.com all right guys thanks for hanging out with us let's get back to the show You know, I've actually talked about this offline and I said as much to Wayne. I'm like, I'm incredibly grateful you had the courage to say something. And really the fact that he's an employee and I'm an owner, it should be immaterial.

29:35 That's our problem if it's a problem. That is absolutely our problem. And I think that's another great reminder in and of itself. If you're an owner listening to this call, it is so tempting as a reflex to be like, who do you think you are? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm grateful like that wasn't my knee-jerk response. But I've had to discipline myself and cultivate that posture of, hey, I don't care who my teacher is. I want to become the best version of myself I can possibly be. And here was an example of Wayne was my teacher in that moment. And I just think that's a great reminder for all of us as owners, including myself. Take the lessons. Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't matter if it's a technician coming to you with some critical feedback. That's right. I think we all want to have listening ears, but it's, I think if we can help people make that connection to what kind of person do you want to be?

30:23 And even better, the way Wayne approached it was, he, because he pays attention, he already knows the kind of person I want to be. Yeah. And he's already invested that. Oh, yeah. He already investigated that. He's already been paying attention. And so it was just incredibly powerful for him to say, hey, Chris, I've heard what you've said about yourself. Yeah. And it's because of that, I wanted to bring this to your attention. Because once I made that connection, I don't know that there's anything more motivational to me. Yeah. For us as humans. Yeah. When we realize that a behavior that we're engaged in is in conflict with who we really want to, we truly want to be. Not who Wayne wants me to be.

31:04 But that I found as he shared this thing, I found it was in conflict of who I wanted to be and what I wanted to be known for. Yeah. Yeah. And so even just in the subsequent days after that conversation, it had a profound effect on my behavior. I think of an aspect of this behavior, I encountered it again like the next day. And I had the option of kind of kicking that can down the road or engaging it. And I remembered the words in Wayne's, you know, this whole conversation of, I just am confident that this is not who you are or who you want to be. And that was just ringing in my head. And I thought, well, okay, I have one choice here. Yeah. If I'm going to be in integrity with not only how I'm presenting myself to others, but who I want to be internally, I have one option here.

31:52 I have one option and one option only. I'm out of excuses. I texted that to you and Wayne. I'm like, I'm out of excuses. There is no other explanation. There is no outside force that is enough to prevent me from doing this thing if I truly want to be this person. Yeah, that's right. If you're committed to that outcome. But that values connection. I think it's huge. It made me think, how do I... how do I deploy that more intentionally and more consistently in my interactions with my clients? And I think it's twofold. It's when I first have to understand what their values are. And it makes, it begs the question, like for all of you who are owners and leaders, like are we even prioritizing and understanding what our people's values are?

32:35 Mm-hmm. We assume, I think we almost assume that, well, if they get through the interview process, they have shared values with us, but that's very superficial. Oh yeah. You know, I, especially depending on how you deploy them. Oh my gosh. Like, do I really understand their values and the kind of person they want to be? Well, I've got to have the right kind of conversations on the front end to even have a sense for that, you know? Well, and I think what you're pointing out, and this is what you're saying when you're willing to coach someone versus just train them. And I want to be careful here because training requires investment and assets and commitment and things. But I think what happens is we over rely on training to be a statement of how we feel or value the person.

33:20 And I think there's a difference between what someone receives when they're in a coaching environment and... versus when they just go to training. So one of the things that we were just talking about is just this idea of like, what's the deliverable almost, or what's the outcome from coaching? And I think one of the big things is confidence and competence, right? Know-how. They were really good about like kind of coining this as part of their platform is, yeah, What are they trying to achieve with their platform? They want to help the workforce be more confident and competent. The whole idea behind that is that I think we've all been in situations where a team member goes through training They don't modify behavior right away or they're slow on the uptake.

34:03 It's just this slow transition through this process and we begin to villainize them after a while. Pretty soon, it's like they're lazy. They don't give a crap about the business. They're not aligned with our company culture. And what's interesting, and I think that, man, this is way throwback, but Clint Pulver is, talked about when he was doing a lot of the undercover millennial, where he would be hearing feedback directly from the employees and it didn't tell the same story that owners were telling. And that's part of what, yeah, like often not even close. And so like an example, I think in this situation is in our minds, our person's lazy. They're out of alignment with our code of conduct. They don't care. And the reality of it is, is that that individual went to training.

34:45 They had information downloaded onto them. In most cases, too much at one time, which I'm notorious for. And they just walked out with a head full of nonsense that doesn't really have anything to attach itself to. And then they're not competent. They're not confident. And so they withdraw, they get quiet, they're passive. They don't want to be held accountable. They don't want to be seen in a public space like a public dashboard because they don't know what they're fucking doing. And again, I think we've been in plenty of environments where we do know the difference when somebody just straight up doesn't give a crap. Yeah. But in most cases, it's because they haven't gotten the time that it requires.

35:28 And so here's kind of what I wanted to point to a little bit. One, I think that when we, and again, don't hear me say it's either or. I'm saying that good employee development, good company culture, good progress towards growing and scaling is going to require that we build time for both. And that we map both behaviors in our organizational change, in the way that we do one-on-ones, in the way that we interact with our people. And one of the things I just want to encourage us, and I think your story is a perfect example of this, is what is the value statement we're sending? When somebody walks into our office or sends us an email and says, hey, I've got this question.

36:10 And not only do you not in a distracted manner give them some flippant, tell you what to do answer and kick them out of your space, but you sit them down, you close your laptop, you focus your attention on that individual, and you dig in to ask questions. Like if you just think if this is you on the receiving end of this, right? look back at your relationships. This is the thing that drives me crazy about my own behavior. I am so good at understanding what I need, but I'm terrible often at providing it to the people around me. I don't know why we do that, but it's common. And I know I certainly lived that out more times than I want to admit. But my point is, is that, I mean, just think about this.

36:50 Somebody goes to a training in a conference room. They're sitting in there with 20 people. We're all facing the same direction. We're watching the person at the front of the room go through some boring-ass slides, talk at us for an hour, two hours, eight hours. And we think to ourselves as we pat ourselves on the back, man, am I investing in my people? And the value statement, honestly, from the room is, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. However, again, we go back to that example. Somebody sits down, you close your laptop, you close your phone, you look them in the eye, you ask questions, you help them think through and process through potentially the training they've already been through, The value statement that you're making in that moment is so powerful.

37:33 And it's what drives change. It also creates a safety mechanism for somebody to tell you they're not confident in what they understand about the situation. And we have a chance in that moment to build confidence by building competence because we coach them beyond just the training protocol. Right. And so it's powerful. I think that your story that you're talking about, yeah, granted, it's kind of a masterclass on, on, on Wayne as an example, but the reality of it is it was meaningful to you the way that he addressed it. He tied it to something fundamental and it drove change and behavior. And at the end of the day, if we're just playing the game to win, yeah, That outcome's more important than my ego or me being right or me thinking that I've done enough or not done enough.

38:18 Who gives a shit? Like, do you want change or not? Right. Okay. So tactically, here's where we all, I think, kind of miss the mark. And again, you guys know this. We try to say this a lot when we're on the show is we are never talking to any of our listeners as if we've got it all figured out and that we aren't compromised on similar situations or certain situations. scenarios just like you are. The reason we have the show is to let you all know you're not alone, meaning we screw all this crap up too. We have wins, we fail forward just like you all are, but we certainly are not masters of any of it. It's a work in process. So anyways, here's some things to consider. And this is where it shows up a lot for us as consultants.

39:00 Again, I was listening to a podcast this morning on my way in and it was like, really talented business leader talking about the fact that they have a coach and a strategic partner. And he's just literally saying, look, I literally do this for a living. And then I go to a program and I'm blindsided by the fact of how bad I am at living this out in my own business. And he's just talking about this weird tunnel vision that we get sucked into as soon as it's yours. And guys, we're no different. We're no different. We're no different. We're no different. We literally consult operationally and commercial sales with clients. And I'm good at telling people how to do it the right way. And I've been effective as hell in my seats. And I will struggle with the same stuff in our business, just like you all do.

39:42 So it just is. Okay. That's right. So here's where I'm going with this. I think we need to approach systematic change or system and process development very differently in our organization. Okay. I think we have to map out what it is that has to change. We need to build and develop the training curriculum, the training plan, the training map, and all of that's great. But then when we talk about the time commitment, the expectation for change, if we are not building in a method to support that transition or that development with coaching, we're not going to get the outcome we want. And if you're going to invest in coaching, it is going to change your timeframes.

40:24 And one of the things that we see a lot as consultants, and again, we wrestle with it ourselves, is that we do all this planning and we think to ourselves, man, this is a 30-day gig. I'm going to meet with the team. We're going to talk about this. I'm going to do two morning trainings and they're going to get what they need. And presto change-o, 30 days later, my team is going to act differently than they did today. And that is exactly why we grow increasingly frustrated with the gap between what exists in our business and what we want to exist in our business. Because we think we're great at strategic planning, which you might be. We're great at planning and mapping out a plan. Great for you. But then we fail to build in the coaching component and measuring the effectiveness of our coaching.

41:08 And then we don't ultimately get what we want. Yeah. Here's me trying to land the plane. I think this has been good. Albeit, is this a little bit shorter session? I'm kind of maybe more bite-sized. Yeah, I think you really. You know, something that's coming up for me is this whole values thing. It's like I'm even processing this in real time. And I'm like, what could we do when we onboard people? And in our existing employee relationships, how could we do a better job proactively doing identifying what our people's values are, what is most important to them, and what kind of person do they want to be? What do they personally value? And what I immediately jumped to is, I have this buddy. We were at this all-church camp out, actually this last summer, and he was so gung-ho.

41:53 He owns a coffee shop, and he's a business owner. And he got all into this values card deck. Have you heard of this? No. Oh, it's incredible. So it's this deck of, well, kind of the shape of playing cards. And I don't know if it's 52, but there's like 50 some cards in there that all have a different value and a definition for that value on there. And what you do with the deck is, you do it with another person and each person takes a turn laying out and choosing their, out of all of them, they take the 50 and I think there's a process like they sort down to their 20 favorites out of it. And then they have to narrow it down to, of those 20, what are the most compelling values?

42:37 They have the deepest belief in the 10. And then they get down to five. And then they explain why they chose those five and why they're such a part of who they are or who they want to be. And then the other person does it and kind of works their way down from the 50 down to their top five values. It was a really awesome exercise. I'm just thinking of this in the moment, doing that at the campground. We're sitting down by the river and he's like, hey, can I do this values exercise with you? And I'm like, sure, whatever. This is great. But it was really good because just like the personality, you know, profile things we take where normally it's like multiple choice, like choose the answer that is, feels most real to you or something.

43:19 Yeah. It's that same kind of deal. Like you read all these values and like part of you wants to emulate all of them because you want to be the best person you can be. And they're like, well, yeah, that's important to me too. But you have to choose which is the most important thing. This might be something we need to do in our next quarterly. Yeah, maybe. You know, on-site. But I think just this question over this challenge to everybody who's listening too is how incredible or how much more effective could we be if we were more intentional about identifying each other's values, like the example I gave with Wayne. The only reason Wayne was able to have such an effective conversation with me is because he listened, observed, and he and I have had many dialogues about integrity and values and just situational things that he knew.

44:06 He's like, Chris is out of alignment. But I think oftentimes, again, we don't know that. So it's like, okay, what could we be doing to identify those things about our people and connect with our folks on that level? Because how much more motivational when I go to have a corrective conversation with them and instead of me saying, hey, this is out of alignment with our process, which is a problem because of X, Y, and Z, all real. Mm-hmm. But how much more powerful is it to say, hey, this was out of alignment with how I see you as a person. Sure. Yeah. Like I have come to know you as a person that values X. And when I saw this or I saw you do this, I was a little bit puzzled. Like I was a little shocked that I was seeing that from you because I've always known you to be this kind of person.

44:51 And I just, I feel like I owed it to you to point out that. Sure. Yeah. Dissonance. Yeah. Yeah. How much more powerful is that versus, Hey, you were out of alignment with our process. I mean, because at some level, like who really gives a crap? Well, yeah, I was out of line with the process because it was annoying or it was inconvenient. There's all kinds of reasons why we ignore the process. Yeah. But when it's about who I am, I can't as easily ignore that. Yeah. Right? Because me taking that shortcut because it was more convenient or whatever, well, that doesn't matter. Yeah. When it comes to... who I am or who I want to be. It's kind of like the, it's the other side of kind of like that whole value, coaching value statement, I think is, yeah, it's an amazing opportunity to address issues or concerns with behavior, right?

45:35 Or alignment or lack of alignment. But again, too, it's like it starts with how do we even prepare that individual to be able to do the job that we're asking them to do? Well, we've kind of deployed the same energy, right? We've got to engage in a deeper level than us just kind of downloading information. If it was that simple, people would just watch YouTube videos before you hired them, and then they would just come onto your team and do all the things that you want them to do. So, okay, here's two parting nuggets. Oh, are you going to summarize? No, I'm not going to summarize. Just a couple things I think that are actionable and tactical. One is, as you guys continue to make change in your business, because we're moving forward, right? Consider, have we properly identified the amount of coaching that will be required?

46:20 And again, when we talk about coaching, we're talking about role-playing. We're talking about leading with questions. We're talking about helping the individual learn how to apply the the things that they have been trained on. Because until they begin to apply them, and unless they apply them in a systematic, tempered fashion, they're not going to be confident enough to go out there and do what it is that you need them to do. So just consider, are we coaching enough? Where do we need to add more coaching into the system? And certainly before you deploy any kind the need for coaching and what are we going to do about it?

47:03 And then the second thing that I would say, and I think Chris's story is, again, it just kind of points to this so perfectly. one of the biggest things, if you just think about all the different shows that we've had, all the different guests that we've had on that they talk about culture, whether it be like somebody from One Tom, somebody from Thomasville, there's this reality that relationship is part of the bedrock of why that culture is winning and why it's sustainable. And I think this is one of those practices that we can lean into to create that kind of relationship and have a healthy is by teaching leaders in our organization to become coaches.

47:44 They can't skip the skill set of coaching and they can't not have enough time to give coaching to their people. And if we are understaffed with leadership because everyone's to the maximum output and nobody's coaching their people, it's a problem. It's a problem. It's a problem and grow. Yeah, it's a problem. Okay, gang, take your first steps, obviously. Thanks for hanging out with us and we'll see you on the next one. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart & Boots. And if you're enjoying the show, but you love this episode, please hit follow, formerly known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend.

48:27 Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.