Ep 21 - Filling The Hole

0:02 Welcome back to another episode of the MRM Podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brandon. Join us as we discuss business, life, and legacy. It's business time. Are you going to do your normal intro thingy that you do? I was debating it, actually. I was mid-mental debate. Do I jump in with a... Hello, my friend. Or not. I just... I can't lie. I'm a little bit nervous about this episode. I know. I am too, actually. So I had a whole game plan and then the mic turns on and the recording starts and it's like, okay, how do we open this up? So you and I have been watching a TV show.

0:45 Yeah. Ted Lasso. Unbelievable show. It's interesting. I started to get a frog in my throat even just saying the words Ted Lasso, which is just weird. Feels weird. You know somebody's done their job well when the content they've created has that much of an impact on its audience. There is something happening with that show. It's pretty amazing. Yeah, there's something special about it. I don't know, three or four weeks ago when I first watched it, I did a little LinkedIn Live because I watched the first three episodes. I'm like, man, there's just so much leadership gold in here packaged into a quirky comedy that you watch the rest of the season and it turns into so much more than that.

1:27 Yeah, clearly. And then season two... Just, I don't know, whatever it was, episode seven or eight just lays me out in a way that a TV show has never done for me. So you and I watched this episode separately and I don't remember how it came up. We were on one of our coffee walks, I think, and talking about it came up. And so here, what are we talking about, folks? Well, if you haven't watched Head Lasso, I highly, highly, highly recommend it. I know that most of us are probably trying to discipline ourselves around how much Netflix and crap we watch on TV.

2:08 But this is worth your time. Yeah, it's an interesting show. And to kind of lay the groundwork, you could just watch this scene also. Do you have kind of a context for where Brandon and I are going? I'll describe it here in a minute. But if you Google Roy Huggs Jamie... J-A-I-M-E, you'll see the scene that Brandon and I are going to talk about. Yeah. So the context is, if you haven't heard of Ted Lasso, it's that the comedy is sort of wrapped around this premier soccer team in England. The owner of that team got, that was awarded the team as part of a divorce settlement with her, I don't know, billionaire husband who ran off with some younger woman and, um, That whole kind of story.

2:56 And they were without a coach or they had to fire their coach. And so they're looking for a new coach. And she, the owner of the team, recruits this Division II football coach who just had an amazing Cinderella story at this Division II college football team. American football, mind you, not soccer football. Yeah. And she gets this wily idea to bring him over to England and have him be the head coach of a premier professional soccer team. And so just the basis of that's really funny and quirky. And the first couple episodes of him arriving on British soil and having his first press conference, not knowing the answers, not even really understanding the rules of a soccer game.

3:40 It's just very funny and whatever. Well, you move along the story of the team. One of the main characters is Jamie Tartt. And Jamie is a superstar that had some setbacks. He played for Manchester United, which was more of a big time headlines kind of soccer team, had some personal issues, fumbled that opportunity and had to come down to Richland, which is the team that's featured in the show. And it was a real step back for him professionally, yada, yada, yada. Got a real attitude, real chip on his shoulder. Fast forward to season two, we learn more about what Jamie's about. We meet his dad in this scene that we're talking about.

4:21 And his dad's a real piece of work. And the scene opens up, the entire team is in the locker room. Jamie's dad walks in, he's disheveled, looks half homeless. Seems like he's drunk or he's loaded up on something. And he's pressing his son to give him access to the field, which is sacred in England. Nobody gets to go on the pitch except for friends of players, the team, coaching staff, etc. Like it's sacred ground. And this is one of the only interactions he has with his dad is when his dad's begging him for tickets to games, or in this case, to get on the pitch and take some pictures with his other drunk buddies.

5:03 And Jamie stands his ground, the whole team surrounding him. He's in the middle of the locker room. Dad just waltzes in asking for the permission. And Jamie says, no. No. And his dad proceeds to berate him, belittle him, chastise him, mock him, ridicule him in front of the team. Jamie stands his ground. Dad ups the ante, increases the insults. And finally, Jamie punches him in the face and lays him out. And the look on Jamie's face in that moment, there's so much shame and embarrassment in his eyes.

5:43 It was such a powerful moment, first of all, to see what his dad did to him in that moment in terms of humiliating him. And then to see the shame and humiliation just fall over his face. And then the camera pans and you see his teammates and every single one of his teammates is locked in on the scene. And there's just a look of pity and sorrow, sadness, watching this go down. And then one of the assistant coaches and a former team member, basically a recently retired superstar, Roy, who was, I mean, he and Jamie throughout the whole first season were just enemies.

6:28 Oh, yeah. Clearly. Jamie's ex-girlfriend ended up dating Roy and falling in love with Roy. And there was just this bad blood between these guys. And in that moment, the camera pans to Roy and Roy is watching this go down. And the humanity kind of rises up in him. And he's a super stoic character. He's not a touchy-feely guy at all. He walks over deliberately. And he hugs Jamie in that moment immediately after this went down. One of the other assistant coaches actually grabbed Jamie's dad and basically dragged him out of the locker room and threw him out the door. And then Roy walked over and he embraced Jamie.

7:09 And Jamie just cried and let go. And I cried really hard. In fact, it's really hard for me to watch that scene and not immediately choke up. And I thought about that a lot. And you and I talked about that. I'm like, what is going on there? What is going on there? There's something universal. There's something terribly tragic in that scene that you feel in your guts. And then there's something so beautiful. Not only about Jamie standing his ground against this abusive father, but then Roy, there's like a moment of redemption and love and caring where Roy steps in and he sees, okay, forget all of the bullshit that was between us.

7:59 Like, here's a man. Right. That's just been humiliated in front of his peers. And he needs me. God, I'm getting wrecked just reliving that moment. I'm like, why is this so, why does this touch me so deep in my heart? Like what is going on even now? Yeah. And I think it takes me back. So I think we all have these moments that we've experienced. I don't know that any one of us ever escapes our life without these moments where we've had this deep moment of shame and humiliation. Whether it came from a parent relationship or more so in my case, it came from an early experience in my career or a late experience with parents or other family members or a school bully or something like that.

8:55 No matter how... no matter how strong you think you are, how much you feel like you've overcome, there's still this narrative, this self-dialogue inside of us that rises up. And sometimes it's even hard to know what's going on. Sometimes it comes out in a burst of anger. So maybe it causes us to withdraw from a situation, to shrink back. But I think every single one of us contends with that inner dialogue at some point in our life. And at some points, certain things pull that file folder inside our mind and we go right back to that moment. And I think that scene, for me, it did exactly that.

9:38 It pulled that file folder and I'm reading from that script. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so I thought, okay, this is important. You and I, when we talked about this, both of us were like, okay, we need to talk about this because I think this is a universal thing that we all contend with. And I can see how this inner dialogue has affected not only my relationships at work and my leadership capacity, no doubt about it. I can draw a straight line between some of those inner dialogues and some of my limitations as a leader, the things that have really been a bottleneck for me. But as we've talked about before, there is no true separation between who we are at work and who we are at home.

10:19 And I can definitely draw a straight line between those dialogues and how it's impacted my relationship. with my wife and my children at times, right? How that file folder gets pulled and what that looks like in relationships in my marriage or with my kids or even my relationship to my parents and so on and so forth, right? So we want to talk about that today. Yeah. It's a little weird too, because I think there's an opportunity to share experience with people in a real honest and transparent way so that... people hear ultimately from this that they're not alone, right? But I think the fear factor for me is when we talk about stuff like this, how many of us are going to respond immediately first with some kind of ego response, protective response, where we don't really want to relate to that story.

11:11 We don't really want to admit that there's this damage somewhere on the inside that is affecting people who we are, how we respond to relationship, how we lead people. And so it is interesting. It's like, we feel like the topic is important enough and universal enough for us to address and to at least have a conversation around. But then at the same time, there is this fear of when we do this, is the wrong part going to be grabbed onto? Yeah, right. Are we showing our soft parts? It's like a dog who's scared doesn't roll over and show their belly. Yeah, right. They don't want to show the soft parts. They're vulnerable. It's an interesting topic. And you and I aren't the only ones that have seen that scene and had a similar response.

11:54 And we've even, as part of this, I think, coming up to this decision to go ahead and do a show on it, is that I think there was also other conversations that we had with people in our sphere and just kind of explaining the episode or the scene and saying kind of the reaction we had and getting a lot of nodding heads of... oh, I can relate or it leading to more conversation with people, finally feeling a bit free to say, yeah, I have similar experience that is affecting my life and affecting the way I'm leading and the relationships I have. So it is interesting. I think it has value, but at the same time, it's scary to be honest with stuff like this.

12:35 Yeah, it really is. I can also look back and where I've been willing to deal with these stories, and revisit them and move through them. And I still am figuring out the language of how to talk about this. But there's been something healthy about it. And I think, like you just said it, there's something so powerful... about recognizing that we're not alone. Because I think so often we think our experience is unique. Our battle, our internal battles are so unique to us. But when we verbalize them, like you and I had this moment with the scene and we're like, oh, okay. That there's something about knowing. Yeah.

13:15 that you are not alone, that helps us. It lowers the volume of those dialogues in our head. Yeah. You know, it brings down the volume in those moments when we know that it's not unique. Like this is a shared hardship, I think, that all of us deal with and have to move through. And I was reminded of that a buddy of mine who I see like every six or eight months lives here in town. This is one of those relationships. We don't see each other very often. And we got together and compared notes. And what I love about my friend is just how honest he is. He's honest about all the good things and all the dark things. And we can just go straight to like, that's just the real stuff, you know? Mm-hmm. And he and I both related that at the end of our meeting. We're like, you know, we didn't solve any problems for each other because there are some things in life.

14:00 There is no solution. Yeah. It just is. It's something that we carry a bit of things with us and there's no solution to it. And he said, but I feel better knowing I'm not alone in it. Yeah. And so that's... I think that's our goal for this episode is not to solve your problem, not to somehow quantum leap your leadership or because that's not everything in life involves a four-step process. Yeah, that's true. Right. It's like some of these things we learned to contend with over a lifetime and yeah, That burden becomes lighter. We become better at dealing with those moments. And anyway, so that's what we're going to try to do today. I'm going to go ahead and lead out. Okay. All right, man.

14:41 I told myself I'd be the first mover on this one. All right. Okay. When I watched that scene, the file folder that it pulled was an experience I had early in my career. I was 23 years old. I'm not going to mention the name of this person, but I was working in the laundry business. I was a uniform and laundry sales rep for one of the big, huge laundry companies, big Fortune 500 company. It was my first corporate job. And I had been working for the company maybe two or three weeks and I was scheduled to go to this sales training, this corporate sales training up in Seattle. I live in Corvallis. So at 23 years old, it was like that first big-time job.

15:26 The kind that your parents are kind of proud. You landed the corporate gig. You got health benefits. You got the whole nine. And now I'm going to this sales training. It's paid. I got per diem. It's all these first experiences. Right? And I was so excited. And I was on the younger side because I'd had some sales experience and whatever. And so I was just so proud and excited because I was coming in with some sales experience to this and I felt confident. And we show up to this hotel and there's a cohort that I'm a part of, of 22 or 23 other sales reps from around the whole region. And so we get into this. It's a two-day workshop.

16:07 And the senior vice president of sales is leading it. And this guy is a larger-than-life version of Vin Diesel. I'm not exaggerating. This guy actually was a former pro hockey player in Canada. I had four or five years as a pro hockey player and was now this senior VP of sales guy. He's good looking, broad, built like a linebacker, bald, just like Vin Diesel. And I'm a 23-year-old kid. I'm looking up to this guy. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is a version of what I want to be someday. You know, he's up there talking in front of the group, which I love to do, blah, blah, blah. And so I'm just like, I'm enamored with the whole thing going into this.

16:51 We wrap up day one and I'm feeling so confident because the material I want to... First of all, the local manager that I worked for down in Eugene taught me really well. He was a really good sales rep in the company before he became a GM. And so I was just so confident and feeling so good. I was learning a few new things, but I knew a lot of it. And he gives an assignment at the very end to the class. He's like, okay, guys, I want you to review your notes, review the chapter. I'm going to call on somebody, maybe two people, to review the chapter tomorrow when we start class. So make sure you study. Make sure you're on top of this stuff. So I go back to the hotel.

17:31 A few of my colleagues text me. We're like, hey, we're going to go to a Seattle Mariners game tonight. Go grab some dinner, go to a Mariners game. Because a lot of people were from Idaho or whatever. And so, yeah, let's go to a pro baseball game. I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah, right? It's just like, it's better and better. Yeah. And so I do a cursory overview of the notes. I feel confident in the material because I'd been a previous... Anyway, long story, I'd had quite a bit of sales experience for a 23-year-old. I felt really confident in the material. So I go out with them. And I don't party. I have a beer with dinner. We go to the game. It's fun. It's just a great experience. I come back.

18:11 I'm in bed by 10 or so. I sleep well. I get up the next morning, go to class. And who does he call on to do the review? Me. But I think nothing of it because I like talking in front of people. Love it. Always have. I'm excited because I know the content, not just by rote memorization. I feel confident about the content. I can teach it. And so I get up there. I take my book. I open the chapter. I glance at it for three seconds and I launch into an overview of the material. Within a couple minutes, he leaves to go take a call. Vin Diesel does. We'll call him Vin Diesel. Yeah, I like it. Okay. So Vin goes out in the lobby and he's handling some important call.

18:54 And I keep going for like probably 10 minutes. And towards the end, I get to the end of the chapter and there was a section that I, whatever, spaced on. And so I glance at it. He walks in right as I'm glancing in the book. And then I look up and I'm like, oh, yeah. And then I continue to launch into my review and teaching the concept. I was even giving examples from some of my past sales experience already on the job. I'm tying in examples and stuff. He stops me. He says, Chris, why are you reading from the book? Did you even study last night? This is after me giving an eight minute overview already, right?

19:35 And I just instantly, I'm in front of all my peers, many of whom are older than me. I'm just instantly this humiliation washes over me, but it doesn't stop. He said, Chris, why in the world would Why didn't you take this seriously when I said to study? What were you thinking? Do you realize how much you've let down your whole cohort here? What you're telling everybody is this class just isn't worth your time. This isn't worth your focus and effort. Get the hell out of here. Go wait for me in the lobby. I can still feel that moment in my gut right now. It was undoubtedly one of the most humiliating moments in my entire life. And I think also what made it so powerful is, is the deep feeling of being misunderstood.

20:25 Because it wasn't as though I just winged it. Like I just was cavalier about it or reckless. It was I genuinely felt that I understood the material. I understood the material and I had no feeling that I had blown it off or anything of that kind. And so then to be dressed down in front of your peers It was just a double whammy. Well, mind you, he was gone for the vast majority of the discussion. Yeah. Which adds to that element of misunderstood. And so there was a little bit of defensiveness, but I don't even remember feeling defensive at all. I was just wrecked.

21:06 I was wrecked. And then I was afraid because here's this person of authority and he meets me out in the lobby and he says, Hey, Chris, I just don't get it. I can't imagine why you would be so... You would blow something like this off. I mean, really, how hard is it to just review a chapter and prepare, write some notes? I felt like I knew the material. Well, clearly, you didn't since you were reading the book, reading out of the book. I'm like, well... I was basically speechless and then afraid I was going to lose my job. Yeah, if you talk back. Yeah, right. And so I was just really humbly. I'm like, okay, I'm sorry. I'll be better. I just, oh gosh. That moment. That moment, boy.

21:47 And it's funny how it's shown up in my life since then. I was 23 years old. I'm 41 now. And of course, it's had less and less control over me. The more as I've gotten older and I've taken a look at this, and even just the process of saying this out loud is helpful to me. Sharing this story with others and then hearing other people that have had similar kinds of experiences with people in their life is, like I said, knowing I'm not alone in those experiences and those feelings that I have with them. has been important. But man, that altered the course of my life a little bit. I don't know how, right?

22:27 We look back on those moments, we're like, I don't know what would have been if I hadn't had that experience. I think in some ways it's fortified me. Yeah. I think in other ways, it's made me incredibly sensitive to others, which has had some drawbacks. There's two edges on every sword, right? It's like... I think in some ways it's made me incredibly sensitive to other people's feelings and not ever wanting to make other people feel that way. That's good. It's also caused me to shrink away from difficult conversations with others for fear of what they'll think of me. And which isn't even logical based on the story. But it's just interesting how... we react and we're affected by those moments.

23:08 Yeah. It's not even always logical. Like it doesn't, like the dots don't always even connect with what the impact was. Right. To the actual story, the actual experience. It has all these weird scattered effects. It shows up in our just weird behaviors. Yeah. Yeah. All right, let's take a minute to recognize and thank our MitResto Mastery sponsor, Accelerate Restoration Software. And I'm fully aware, by the way, that when I say those last two words, restoration software, that that instantly creates heartburn for some of you out there, right? Because we probably all fall into one of two camps when it comes to software. We've either cobbled together kind of a version of free website tools and spreadsheets just to make our business work Or we're in the camp where we've adopted one of these existing restoration platforms, you know, one that has all the bells and whistles and supposedly does it all.

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24:48 Yeah. Imagine guys, how your business would change if your entire team was actually consistently using the system. Do yourself a favor, go check these guys out at xlrestorationsoftware.com forward slash MRM and check out the special offers they're providing to MRM listeners. All right, let's talk about actionable insights. Owners, GMs, you can't be your business's expert on all things estimating. You might've been three years ago when you were writing sheets in the field, but the industry's always changing and so are the tools. If you're the smartest person in the room when it comes to Xactimate and Matterport, how does that scale? You're the bottleneck.

25:29 I know I'm preaching to the choir, but this is where actionable insights comes in. They're a technical partner that can equip your team with the latest bleeding edge information and best practices and then update them with webinars and training resources when the game inevitably changes again. For this reason, we recommend actual insights to all of our clients. Yeah, three of the kind of big things that stuck out to me when being introduced to AI and their team. First off is this consistently updated training. I mean, at the end of the day, these guys are the experts. They're out front all the time. They're constantly learning new trade secrets and ensuring that your team's got access to those things. A 3,700 plus page database of Xactimate templates.

26:11 I don't know what else to say here other than don't reinvent the wheel. It's already available. Download it, copy it, use it, bam. database of commonly missed items. I think this is huge. So many of us can change the numbers by just moving the needle a couple points and those commonly missed items can make all the difference in the world. So go check them out at value.getinsights.org backslash fcg. It's interesting. One of the things that you and I are really passionate about is just this development of leadership. Right. Not just in ourselves, but empowering other people to experience it and understanding the weight of the influence that we often have based on title or based on position.

27:00 And just trying to help people really be cognizant of that, the opportunity to steward well, and also the weight of what happens when we make mistakes. They carry weight. And it's really, I think your story is a real good example for us to review as leaders, to understand the weight of what we say and how we treat people. And the reality that we can make mistakes. We can at times not have the full perspective, the full picture. And if we're not cognizant of the weight of the impact of our influence on our people as leaders, we can wield that power without a lot of question, without a lot of effort being put into, do I really have the whole story here?

27:47 And allowing these comments or these responses to come forth and have these very long-lasting negative impacts on our team members. And so I think your example of... I think it would be very easy to look at that example and see a hard leader focused on accountability. And that's not really what happened. It was someone responding out of a lack of clarity to the true context of the conversation. and then ultimately having this forever impact on one of their people. So in that moment, we see this breaking of trust, this damage that's done between a leader and their subordinate in a way that I don't know if you truly have the opportunity to fix it.

28:32 In an episode a long time ago, you and I discussed a similar circumstance, I think, where I was that person. I shared to the best of our ability, of course. a similar example of where I think I acted in response without having the full picture and the likelihood of the sticky residue, the damage that I did and the way that I responded to that moment. And I think the important thing here for us to understand is the reality of this. Like this is not, this is 20 something years later and it's a thing that, that you as an individual and as a professional have to navigate around.

29:12 So imagine that. So I'm thinking about this as a leader. And you've told me this story a long time ago. And I remember just thinking in my mind, wow, the sheer might... the sheer power of influence that we have based on title. You didn't really know that person. You don't really know what that individual's life is like behind the scenes. You don't even know what you admired about that person. But they fit a persona that in your mind, you identified as influential, powerful, respectable, really based on title, based on title, position, and maybe some looks, right? Which how often are our downlines assigning that same level of power and influence purely based on the fact that we have GM in our title or we have owner in the title?

30:04 And then are we really being cognizant of the power that we're wielding, that we've been given, even if we don't realize it? And then what are we doing with that power? That just strikes me. And of course, it's easy for me to look at your scenario from the outside and be like, oh, wow, there's just this leadership story that I think is very rich for us to be cognizant of. I was sharing this story with a friend and it was actually really healing for me. It was just another, right? When we share these things, we realize we're not alone. We can take perspective on that situation and almost relive it with a better perspective by doing that. When I told him that story, he said, you know, the irony of that is this senior leader is leading a sales workshop and he gets up and leaves the meeting to take a cell phone call.

30:58 What kind of leadership is that? Right. Was his house really on fire? Right. Right. Was his kid in the hospital? Probably not. What kind of leadership is that? I was like, oh, I love you. Thanks. Thanks for being in my corner. It feels like affirmation. Thank you. But it is true, right? But in the moment, I saw nothing but his judgment over me. All I could feel is this... powerful person just telling me I'm, I'm a, I'm basically a piece of crap. Yeah. That's all that came across in that moment. I didn't have, like it was a fight or flight kind of response. Yeah. I didn't even think to stand up for myself and be like, hold on here.

31:38 Yeah. You're the one who walked out of a meeting to take a phone call. How professional is that? Like I didn't, I didn't even know to stand up for myself. I look back and there's a part of me that's like, you know what? I wish I could relive that. Right. Yeah, sure. And, and, and, and not be a jerk, but stand up for myself a little bit. Right. So yeah, it's interesting. I'm totally dragging my feet. I felt like you were kind of going into your head a little bit. Like, I know this is hard for you. It's hard for me. Like what you guys can't see. It's emotional. It's like... Yeah. Yeah. But again, it's like, why is it emotional? Well, it's emotional because it's real life stuff and it's forever stuff and it has real life impact.

32:21 And it's happening at a level that the vast majority of us are not willing to talk about. We're not willing to admit. We're defensive. We're fear-driven. We're controlling. We're doing all the things to not allow these stories to be lived out, understood, and then establish context for rich relationships. Why do we do that? We know there's benefit to it. You and I have built a friendship on honesty and transparency and understand that part of our loyalty to one another is built on the fact that we're willing to be transparent. Yet there is this space that we just do not allow that to come to fruition, I think, in our businesses. We don't allow it to come into fruition with some of our business and professional relationships for a myriad of reasons.

33:09 And the reality probably is that my version of this thing, this is the thing, the anchor in my life. I have a gut response that lots of men and women have experienced some version of this. Again, from a peer, a leader, family member, whatever. So here's mine. Young kid and our family fell susceptible to the statistics and a breakdown of relationships started to form between mom and dad. And so essentially by 11 years old, my dad, he's gone and he's pursuing whatever it is that he deems important in his life. However, clearly over the next handful of years, there's just this broken, inconsistent reaching out on his part to continue to develop relationship relationships.

33:58 keep life shared between his kids and him. And so like a lot of relationships, it just begins to deteriorate right out of the gate. And I have a lot of, I'd say, characteristics that I've assigned to him over the years of... lazy, self-centered, you know, POS, really, if I'm honest. And that went on for years and years and years. I mean, it was... He kind of tried for a few years when the divorce first happened. But within, you know, I don't remember now, but at less than five years, I think it turned into maybe once a year, we were getting some kind of reach out. So as a kid, watching your family be divorced is very difficult. And I think most of us don't even know what to do with it.

34:39 When most of us spend our entire life in divorced families, we're not understanding what happened and having all these stories in our minds of we caused it, it was our fault, we're not important, whatever. So of course, I'm doing that. And over the years as a young man, I'm building this armor of, I don't need it. I don't need you. I don't need your input. I don't need you to love me. I don't need you to support me. I don't need you to like me. Basically, fuck off. And so now, fast forward, I'm in, I think, my late 20s, early 30s, probably early 30s. And there's a deployment that happens in my military career. And long story short, you kind of hear through the hubbub, through the grapevine, that he's got interest again.

35:21 There's this curiosity or this questioning that's happening, maybe because of war and because of this life and death reality. Maybe he had a moment where he's reconsidering a relationship with us. So anyways, save everybody the drama. Long story short, there is this weird broken thing that begins to kind of take form and between a father and a son. And I'm trying to mature and provide forgiveness where I think I can as a young man. And I don't know what he's doing. He's doing some version of trying to connect or reach out. Never really any formal apologies or acceptance of responsibility. Not ever really communicating anything to any effect around, yeah, I messed up.

36:02 I lost out. I want relationship. I need relationship. It's important to me. You're important to me, whatever. There's none of that really happens. Anyways, my dad ends up being diagnosed with stage four cancer, lung cancer. And my wife and I go back and forth. And this is not terribly long ago. My wife go back and forth and we just realized, hey, he messed up. He did a lot of things wrong. But we have the opportunity to step into that, to be brave and be different. And... And so my wife and I made the decision that I would actually walk with my dad through the cancer treatments and kind of walk the rest of the journey with him. And again, it's like, just to be crystal clear, from my perspective, I was not being a superhero.

36:44 I was doing very mechanical hard work to compensate for how I felt. How I felt was he didn't deserve it and he deserved to die alone. But I didn't want to live that out. And so my wife and I made this intentional decision to reinvest, to re-engage, to open ourselves up to more wounding, to walk the rest of this journey with my dad. So the company I was with was very gracious, and they would allow me one day a week. I would leave about midday, and I would go pick my father up, and I took him to his chemo treatments. And we'd be there for three-plus hours at a time, just sitting. And honestly, most of those conversations were this weird, broken, haphazard attempt at two people trying to make up for...

37:31 30 some years of no relationship whatsoever. And there was times where it felt productive and you caught yourself grabbing onto this idea of, wow, wouldn't it be interesting to see relational restoration before the end of days with him? And then there would be other days where we'd go to these treatments and he would just be him. And I remember how aggravating it was and how hurtful it was a lot of times to be exposed to that. That I was intentionally exposing myself to that experience. And so there was this constant mental battle of, do we continue to do it or do I just walk away and say, dude, just... just lay in the bed you've made. And so anyways, we tried to stick it out.

38:13 We did. We stuck it out. And we went through lots of multiple months of treatments every week and doing this. Anyways, one night I see a message from my dad on my phone. He had texted me. And out of knee jerk, I'm like, Oh, geez, what's up? What happened? So I read this text. And I remember that the first couple sentences, it was like I couldn't comprehend what I was reading because And long and short of it, he wrote me in this text of how if he needed an Uber driver, in his words, he would have fucking hired one. Of course, there's much more text. But basically, what he said in this text was, you're still not doing enough.

38:54 You're not good enough. In fact, you've actually made me angry with your performance. Again, setting the stage, divorce family, a very self-centered, broken man leaves, does just an absolute horrid job pursuing relationship with his son. And that goes on for multiple decades. And at the end of his days, his son decides to forgive that. and do whatever that he can. Of course, this is my story, my perception, right? To rekindle and provide love and guidance and do what was necessary to support him. And his response to that action was again calling me out and telling me I was not worthy and I was disappointing.

39:41 I would like to say that in that moment, I saw that text and I was so mature and full of wisdom that I responded really well. But I didn't. I got angry and I threw in the towel. I basically said, you're a piece of shit. You didn't deserve this in the first place. Now you're actually... telling me it's not good enough, which I didn't owe you anything in the first place, I'm out. And then my dad, it goes on for a few more months. My dad's declining health and we find out through the grapevine he's about to die. And my sister and I wanted to at least say goodbye. And I'm feeling guilt over the fact that I walked and that I didn't continue to pursue that.

40:24 And we tried to rekindle with my dad and he basically said he wasn't having it and he died And so anyways, it's just a shit show. It's a circus and the family is walking through it. My sister and I are talking through the experience. And then finally, the estate settlement comes out and everybody gets their lawyer drawn up letters about who's getting what and what happened with the estate. Yeah. It's not like my dad died a millionaire. There wasn't a bunch of money for us to get in the first place. But it was very interesting reading this document, this legally binding document that was shared with all vested parties.

41:05 the roles that everyone took, what they were getting or not getting, and how they related to my dad's life and his estate. And so in a very interesting read, we found out that, well, first off, my sister and I really got nothing. That estranged distant family members that were related somehow through marriage we're getting most of it. And all in all, there was this very direct language around my name and how I had no authority to speak or represent the estate that basically I was not to have any voice whatsoever in what would happen with my father's estate and remaining assets.

41:52 So again, and at this point, when this letter comes out, my dad's dead. He's in the ground. He is no longer walking the earth. And the very last message that I received... And again, this is my story. It's my perspective. The last message I received from him was, man, yeah. Not only are you not good enough for me to spend my days pursuing relationship with you as my son, but you actually are an embarrassment and you have no right to speak on my behalf or anything related to my life or my assets. Literally, it's in writing. And honestly, that part did not happen that long ago.

42:33 And so not a fun story, not a fun experience. And it shaped my life. That ongoing saga continued to have power over me my whole life as a leader, as an individual, as a husband, a dad. And I was blessed. I did have voices in my life that were valuable that did say something different. And thank God, really. Yeah. It's critical for me as an individual to know that story and to be able to look at it in the eyes and understand that it affects the way that I respond to relationships with people, not just subordinates, but to peers. Relationships with people that have been my direct supervision or my leader's.

43:18 It's played out in good and horrible ways. That thing, that story that I have. And again, I understand that story is not unique. I mean, yeah, it's got its own color. But the reality of it is, is I know that lots and lots and lots and lots of young men and women have experienced these kinds of stories that shape the way that they're seeing the world. It's shaping the dialogue that they have with a manager. Yeah. with a client, with a prospect. It's coming to play all the time. And I think the better job that I do, recognizing that story and being able to talk about it and look at it and identify the things that came of it, the impacts from it, it allows me to be a better leader in a lot of ways.

44:08 Because it reminds me of things. It reminds me that I, as a human, have similar stories to those around me, regardless if they work for me or if I work for them, regardless if they provide value to me as a vendor or as a prospect or in a relationship. It doesn't matter. The reality of it is, is these people that we share life with have stories like this. And when I'm willing to look at that story and give it definition and understand its impact on my life, it allows me to do the same thing with other people. I can relate to the fact that my business partner has a story that happened that I can't control, that he can't control.

44:55 But it is. Right? Right, wrong, or indifferent. It is. It's part of the story. So what am I doing as a friend, as a business partner, as a leader, to take that story into account when I'm interacting with you? Or when I'm interacting with my peers? But yeah, so we promise. We don't know that this is... This is not a four bullet points to success. This is more of a... here's our story. Chances are you have similar stories and you're not alone. You and I were talking about this when we were walking around and I shared a picture story. I'm going to share that. So this was the vision that I had in my mind when I was kind of...

45:36 Some things happened recently that gave Chris and I the opportunity to dig up these stories to include Ted Lasso, which is amazing. But... I described for you what it feels like. If I were to paint a picture of how I feel sometimes in response to this damage that legitimately happened in my relationship with my father, is that I see this giant hole in the ground next to me. And as all these accolades, these wins, these little successes, these... the next sale, an increase in pricing structure, a win on this, a new job, an expansion into a new market, growing profits, growing all these things.

46:18 There's all these little wins that we're chalking up. And it's like, I could just have this clear vision of me accepting this thing or holding on to this thing that represents a small win and then chucking it into this hole. And just constantly being in this state of why is this fucking hole not filling up? I just keep throwing these accolades and these things into this bottomless pit that I just cannot find the bottom in. So it's always a hole. So I keep looking over here at this experience, this history of all these little wins, but I don't know where they are. There's nothing tangible to hold on to because they've all been thrown into this freaking bottomless pit that I can't find the bottom to.

47:04 Yeah. And that sounds so desperate, right? But the reality of it is that is at play. Right, wrong, or indifferent, this thing that happened because of the tone that my dad set with me and how he broke the trust in that relationship as a father has created this thing that I'm constantly trying to compensate for and battle through. And granted, through good relationships and some professional help, all the different tools and resources that we have available, there are very positive ways to interact and work through these stories that we all share. But I just think that there's more of this at play in our businesses. There's more of this at play in our relationship as we try to develop new leaders, as we develop partnerships and relationships with adjusters, when we're negotiating on a loss.

47:52 how many of us stop to recognize the stories that are at play, right? It seems so heady. And I don't think we walk away from this conversation tomorrow and we do everything differently. But I think there's an awareness that's required that A, we have these stories B, we're not alone and we're not so unique that someone else hasn't experienced a similar story or at least an impact that was similar. And if those things are true, then C, what do we do with them? How do we allow them to affect change in the way we lead people, in the way we negotiate? in the way that we develop relationships, in the way that we prioritize certain things about our business and our lives.

48:39 I don't think there's a four-point outline, but I think this awareness is beneficial. Yeah, I do too, man. I think there is something important about us being honest with ourselves and just allowing ourselves to feel those things about those experiences and just recognize ourselves. Yeah, there was harm done. Yeah. It doesn't define me. Right. But how that word picture you gave of the whole, it's so true. And I think you and I have encountered this same thing in so many successful, like really successful leaders. I mean, you've had an incredibly successful career. It's like you've mounted up all of these achievements.

49:20 We've mounted up achievements together in the work we've done. And there's a place inside where none of that matters. Yeah. Because there's still that ringing bell deep inside there of, it's still not enough. I'm unimpressed. And I relate to that. I relate to that visual because... the story that formed in my head with that experience that I described was this, for whatever reason, the quotation marks in my head that I've carried is, you're not everything you're cracked up to be. Somehow, in that moment, the twistedness of how our brain experiences that moment, the misunderstanding, the deep feeling of being misunderstood in that moment and humiliated, Because again, I came into it.

50:12 I was having some success already in the field. I felt so confident. And to have your confidence just like a broadsword cut you off at the knees unexpectedly. Yeah. I think one of the things that comes out of this for me is that this constant theme that we have when we talk to leaders and their businesses is their frustration with the with people not fulfilling their full potential, right? Or not stepping up to the level that they see fit or not meeting the mark. And that is such a hard wrestling match as a leader, as a leader of an organization to have anyways. We're constantly in this state of, I need to understand my people, but there's accountability and we have to deliver and we have to produce appropriately, which is so true.

50:58 But I just wonder how much more progress... And I don't know. This is a question. It's been a question for myself. I can speak to some experiences where it definitely had an impact, a positive impact. But anyways, this idea of when we're struggling with a downline team member, a technician, a budding project manager, or whatever the case may be, and we're experiencing this just struggle and frustration with, I see you and you have the capacity to do X, Y, and Z. You have all the ability. You have all the tools. You have all the resources, all the training. Just step up and do it. Just execute. And in that frustration, remembering what is it about this person?

51:39 Why are they self-sabotaging? Why? What is happening in this individual's life? What is the story behind the scenes? Where's the hole? Yeah. And is there anything that we could do as a steward or as a leader to change that perception? To come alongside them, right? To come alongside them and maybe help build the framework so that this person can begin to trust in their capacity. Yeah. And again, I don't have the answer. I think there are brilliant people out there. I think there's information. I don't think there's a lack of knowledge and wisdom for us to pursue as leaders, to understand more about this. But I just, again, I think the starting place is, man, is there a way for us out of default to change from frustrated, you know, damn you for not stepping up and not doing the things I've told you a million times to do and just stopping for a moment and saying, is there more to this story?

52:35 What is it that's going on in this individual's life? Right now, maybe for a short-term moment, but what is it that's having this impact on this individual that they can't step through the door that's open for them? And is there any opportunity for us as leaders to influence that, to change the story, to create a different word picture for this person? And if we do that successfully... Is there an opportunity now to watch that person blossom, to step up and deliver at a level that they didn't believe they could before? And that's really what the problem was. And this isn't going to happen every time. And it's not the case every time. Some people are just freaking lazy.

53:17 Yeah. But I just wonder how much more often than not this kind of thing is at play. Yeah. Yeah. And we talked about legacy, right? You and I have been able to help a few people, not tons. Some people have been willing to sort of meet us there. Right. And frankly, I've benefited from your leadership in this way. Right. And we talked about that. Right. I remember a couple of years into working with you and being a part of the leadership team at that past company, right? I remember that talk I gave at an all-company meeting. I asked you how it was and you saw something. You got all the confidence. You got all the skill.

53:58 It feels like you don't think very highly of yourself. It's self-esteem. There's something... It feels maybe nobody else saw it, but I see something there that there's a lack of self-esteem somewhere underneath there. I remember that being a really awkward exchange at first. Like I didn't know quite what to make of it, but then I realized, yeah, there's, you know, and then since then, I mean, this was years ago, since then connecting those dots, you know, with that experience with, at that sales training and, and just the, just me having somebody see it like that outside view and then me kind of pondering that and looking at that.

54:39 has changed me. But it was a weird thing for you to say. Weird in the sense of the level at which we normally communicate with our people. Yeah. You stuck your neck out a little bit. Yeah. And yet it made all the difference, right? And we've had that moment more than once for each other. And you and I have also stepped into that with other employee and colleague relationships. And... Some of them were transformative. Yeah. Yeah. It's worth the effort. Yeah. Yeah, it's worth the effort. It's like, where's the starting place though? The starting place is like, look... These are realities to the stories that we all have. And it is at play.

55:20 It is affecting, good and bad. Like you said, there's ways that we're stretched and challenged. And there is iron, sharpened iron in these experiences. And they are worthwhile. But they're at play. And we can't act as if they're not. We can't act as if our lives are so cleanly compartmentalized. that these types of things are not playing out at work. Yeah. Even in our success. I think success is like the greatest cover. Yeah. Because it can provide the pleasure, the reputation. Yeah. Right. Success can really, it can cover it up externally. Yeah. But it doesn't, in our experience anyway, it doesn't fill up the hole.

56:01 It doesn't fill up at all. It's like in the dark night of the soul, right? When you're having a sleepless night and looking up at the ceiling when you're by yourself, right? It's, It's there. When you're in your office, you're meeting with somebody, it comes up. It's in the back of the mind. It impacts our thinking. It impacts the way we see others. It impacts the way that we make decisions. Doesn't mean it makes us unsuccessful. Right. It means that it, I think it erodes. I think it does erode our happiness. But we can pretend to be happy when we've got all the trappings. Oh yeah. That'll get us... For a lot of us, the boats, the trips, the money in the bank account, the title, all that kind of stuff, it definitely can get us partway there.

56:44 Yeah. But of course, that's the rub. It's not the full medicine. Yeah. It's somehow. So true. Right? Well, we did that one. Yeah. And you guys followed along. I guess what I would offer is there is something powerful about knowing you're not alone. And I hope that whatever we shared somehow made an impact on those of you that are listening. And honestly, we'd love to hear your story. I mean, if any of you feel inclined to reach out, I mean, there's a lot of ways to get in touch with Brandon and I. But I think there's something really powerful of us... leaning into a culture where we try to be more honest with one another, right. And perpetuate that not just in an industry thing.

57:24 Right. But just like as leaders, right. This is a way that I like that whole iron sharpening iron thing that, you know, I talk about in the Bible, it's powerful. And so for those of you that are interested in sharing your story, I mean, we'd certainly love to hear it. So I guess I'd throw that out there. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Till next time. Yeah. We'll see you later. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of the MRM podcast. And if you got something out of it, share it with a friend, hit subscribe, hit follow, leave us a five-star review. Thanks a lot.