Ep 149 - "Friend Or A$$hole"

0:00 Wow. How many of you have listened to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast? I can't tell you that reaction, how much that means to us. Welcome back to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brennan. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. This new camera angle makes my arms look smaller than yours. I'm noticing that and I really appreciate it. I thought you did that on purpose. No, I don't. I didn't. And I am not happy with it. Hey, y'all. Thanks so much for listening to the show. Hey, if you're not already following, please do so. And ultimately share, right? The coolest currency that we have in terms of supporting this is share it with a friend, share it with somebody, a colleague, a peer, one of your downline team members.

0:43 Let them be able to take advantage of the information you're already leveraging in your favor. And finally, guys, if you hear a show that really moves you, that really moves the needle, will you please leave us a review? Those five-star reviews help Right on. And listen, if you're trying to grow your business, you might consider checking out Floodlight's Business Opportunity Audit. It's free. We provide it at no charge. It's actually what we use to assess new clients as they come in. It's a 110-point assessment for your business. And we've now decided to give access to the general public for it. So go and take our business opportunity audit at floodlightgrp.com. It's going to help you identify the biggest gaps and opportunities in your business right now.

1:25 And at the end, it'll assign you a health score to let you know exactly where your business stands right now. So go check it out, floodlightgrp.com forward slash audit and take the BOA. It's a great way to get a pulse on your business. So what's up, man? Dude, you're a dirty, dirty, dirty dog. How you been, man? I feel like we haven't recorded in a long time. It's been a minute. We've been kind of doing some road warrior stuff. It's been a minute. Yep. Next week's going to be fun. I never like leaving on a Sunday, but when you are told that you have to go to Cancun to support a team. What is the deal with us leaving at 7 a.m. and never, ever getting into anywhere before... Sigh. 7 p.m. I know it is unbelievable but then you can't complain it about it that hard because it used to take people like three years to cross the United States and they would like have babies and die and get giardia it's true we probably should count our blessings and now all you and I have to do is watch like three episodes of alone have a sandwich yeah maybe work on a spreadsheet or two and bingo that's a different part of the world yeah Yeah.

2:29 That's right. Fruit bars. Eat some jerky and ask for two of the dumb little fruit bars instead of the one. I guess our life isn't so bad. Yeah. Yeah. They're first world problems. Snuck up on me though. I still don't know how to speak Spanish. I know. Yeah. This will be fun though. Yeah. We got a fun little invite. Go hang out with some Canadians. I feel like I'm learning Canadian. So that's good. Yeah. Got a little jump on that. Not sure what that means exactly, but we are. It always sounds nice. Okay, dude. Like I've got a topic. Okay. You know, I have, I think inevitably a lot of our shows end up being the byproduct of experiences that we are actively in, that we're taking part in.

3:11 Like these aren't like, we're holier than thou and we've got it all figured out. We want to tell you how to do your life. It's more like... it's been meaningful for me and for us to have people in our lives that are sharing their experiences with us. And there's these times for us to relate to that, to mirror some of those experiences and mirror some of those behaviors or the ways that folks had reacted to it. And there's just this, there's this amazing thing that happens when you just aren't alone in something, right? It takes some of the mystery and the scariness or whatever. I don't know. I think I know where you're going. If you didn't go here, it was marriage for me today. Well, I think you're going to be able to relate to everything that I'm about to go down.

3:53 But all right. So here's what I've been wrestling with. And it's actually, it's been equal parts really humbling. And equal parts really rewarding. And I think we're not going to be able to go into a lot of the stage setting of the details of where some of this experience has come from. But I think we're going to be able to do it enough where people can relate and apply it to their own businesses or their own experiences. But on my way in this morning, I was just reflecting on the honor it's been to be a leader. Interesting. I'm probably going to end up having a far more emotional reaction to this than I was anticipating, just mainly because it's so new and so raw right now. But all that to be said, I was reflecting on the honor I've had to be a leader in lots of different environments.

4:37 I have an eight-year career in the military. I certainly wasn't Rambo or did some of the things that many of my peers and friends from the military have experienced, but we certainly did hard things together. Yeah. And I was able to work with and lead some unbelievably high caliber men that were at the time in their late teens and early 20s, which is unbelievable when you think about it. Then from there, we had, as individuals and as partners in businesses, we've led teams, we've built teams and entrepreneurs. We've always prioritized this attention to the fact that our people are real people. They're not just assets.

5:17 They're not just tools. And they're not just resources. I think we can classify our labor pool, our teammates and our team members in those categories. And we often do. And I think that it's appropriate as business owners and leaders to measure those things in a way that makes sense. But you and I have always prioritized relationships. Sometimes we have not held that line well in terms of relationships, sometimes held more weight than accountability. And as a business leader and steward, that can't be. You have to find that place where you are doing both well. And in my world, that's a non-negotiable. For others, they don't feel that way.

5:59 And I've been the recipient of being engaged in businesses and relationships where they don't fucking feel that way. Mm-hmm. Meaning what you're saying is like in order for it to work, it needs to be both relationship and accountability versus just accountability to the tasking. A hundred percent. And it can't just be all the relationship either because ultimately then what you're doing as a leader is you're allowing someone to fail. Sure. You're allowing someone to be and live and work in such a way that it's not their best. Yeah. And then you are denying your team from having a spot in the organization filled by a teammate that they can mutually agree, respect, and work alongside.

6:49 And so in my world, my worldview, I'm not saying this is the way I believe strongly. I believe the winning combination is to somehow find a way to do both those things simultaneously. And And it's why we like guys like Clint Pulver, because I think on scale, being behind the scenes of major corporations, he's saying the same thing. I think it's why we like guys like Joey Coleman, where Joey Coleman is behind the scenes of large organizations and big data tables. And he knows and agrees that is the truth from his worldview as well. You know? Can I add just another, I guess, angle on this? Because what's coming up for me, dude, is, yeah, I said that I was kind of had marriage on the brain.

7:30 One of my friends just recently got a divorce and is right in the middle of wrapping up a divorce. And at first it was a little bit shocking to my wife and I when we found out about this. Yeah. But then not shocking once I had a conversation with him, right? Yeah. Yeah. And what you're talking about, the importance of both relationship, meaning, I guess, love and care, considerate, how are you to find relationship, right? Wanting the best for that person, wanting to sort of identifying commonalities between you and that other person. Like, what is relationship? You know, I think it's a lot. Balancing that with accountability.

8:10 And what is accountability? Well, accountability is... wanting the best that that person can offer. 100%. To not just the relationship, but to the world. So the reason why I bring this up or why I make that connection is I think both are needed for any relationship. Agreed. You know, whether it's marriage, whether it's parenting, whether it's employee, employer, colleagues, peers, like all the things. And for me, the thing that's been coming up a lot, and I'm sure we've talked about it before, is just the role of honesty in relationships. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think actually a lot of marriages, unfortunately, they lack honesty.

8:54 So people get individually, their frustration, their resentment, their disappointment rises to such a level where it's like, I can't do this anymore. And they punch out. Yeah. And their whole relationship had been oriented around just kind of happy wife, happy life, you know, sort of. Accepting. Yeah, just like this is what it is or just like trying to manipulate or cajole the other person and getting instead of just speaking honestly about things. Right. It's just all it's 100% relationship and no accountability. Yeah. So, hey, this is how I'm experiencing you. This is how it makes me feel. Or, hey, I'm not getting this from you and this is how it makes me feel. Like just the basic accountability of this is how I'm experiencing you and I don't like it.

9:34 Yeah. when you avoid all those kinds of conversations in a marriage, you end up failing in the marriage. You either end up hating your marriage or you leave it. And by the way, there's no judgment in my voice at all. It's like, I think, I think one of the, every single time I talk with somebody, a friend who's gotten divorced, I can see my own marriage in it. Sure. You know what I mean? It's like, Boy, I totally, completely and utterly understand why you got divorced. How this happened. How this happens. Yeah. How it's almost happened in my marriage. Yeah. And it also gives me a little more clarity as to what do I need to make sure I'm taken care of? Yeah. And what are the key behaviors that I need to make sure I'm committed to being married? And it just always keeps coming back to this situation.

10:17 super high level of honesty, which by the way, and of course on the heels of this conversation, my buddy just got divorced. It stirred up some shit for me in my own marriage. And it forced me to have a conversation with my wife relative to this couple that's getting divorced. I'm like, honey, whoo, This is kind of coming up for me. I'm listening to his story. There's some things that I think we need to talk about. And it was great. It led to, well, I should say, like with any really honest conversation, it often starts out a little awkward. Yeah. You know, when you start trying to be honest in your marriage, there's an awkwardness. There's a defensiveness that pops up on both sides oftentimes. But then you get through that and you're like, okay, I get it.

10:59 We can do something with this honesty. Yeah. We can't do something when that accountability slash honesty is missing. Instead, everybody's just trying to like feel each other out and placate and pacify and forget about it, ignore it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, and you just grow increasingly disgruntled and frustrated. And then this inevitable pattern of you just give up expecting something different. And I don't want to discount or act as if relationships with our kids or our spheres of influence, our spouses and partners is easier to maintain that balance. But it feels many times that... those environments are easier at feeling drawn to or the expectation seems more realistic that you would be investing in the relationship.

11:49 And I think what I continue to wrestle with as a leader is I'm trying to break down the separating walls between how I lead here versus how I lead there. How I try to enrich relationship here and how I don't or do here. Yeah, you're one person. It's one person. And I think I've commonly said or heard myself saying to leaders and business owners and consulting relationships and just peer relationships where it's like, I don't know why we act as if our employees are different types of humans than the humans we do life around at home and at church and in our community. Because it's just not true.

12:29 I think that we wrestle with these boundaries or these lines that we are trying to understand and draw as leaders where... What's the love accountability balance? And I think sometimes we make it more complicated than it needs to be because we act as if one is not synonymous with the other or one is counter to the other. And I think what I'm trying to come to terms with, I don't even want to say be better at or do differently. I'm just trying to process and decide for myself. what this looks like. And I am growing increasingly bullish on the fact that accountability and love in a relationship or respect for another human are one in the same.

13:17 And they're actually not that far from each other if you look at it from the correct set of lenses. Yeah. And I have been failing forward my entire life as a leader. I've had times where I felt strongly that what I was doing and my convictions were correct and I was leading in a way that was honorable and respectable. And I've had many times where I just felt like I was failing miserably or falling too hard into one sector or another. And... Like, here's just some couple working examples. And I think what this may do is give people maybe a realistic view of how these things pop up as you wrestle with them in real life.

13:59 We're business owners. We are building a company. Our company, like any other company, has competitors. And those are relationships. Whether we want them to be or not, these are forms of relationships that you and I are forced and faced to deal with and come up with a way that we're going to behave and act in regard to those kinds of relationships. And you and I and some of the folks listening are going to know exactly who and what we're talking about. Right. But we had a scenario recently where some of our marketing strategies that we decided to try and deploy were offensive to some entities. And there's been some back chatter and some conversations happening around those entities.

14:41 I'm just going to be super transparent with what this sounded like at home for me. Jana, this is what happened to me today. Okay. Can I just tell you what goes on in my head when I'm faced with this kind of experience? And Jenna's, of course, my wife is like, yeah, I want to hear this. I said, you know, a big part of me wrestles because I play to win. I want to be a winner. I care about performing and I don't want people to hate me. Yeah. And so in a competitive environment, I will stand up to the challenge. Yeah. And I get stuck in this cycle where I'm also wrestling with how do these people think about me? Do they hate me? Are they an enemy?

15:21 And I don't want any of those things. Sure. And I also know competitors are not doing me any favors for my business. And so I'm stuck in this dichotomy. I'm stuck in this wrestling match where I don't want to be hated and I want to play to win. And I'm trying to walk this very fine line that balances both of those things simultaneously. Okay, so that's an example. I think anybody listening right now that's a leader, a business owner, played sports, can understand that balance. And I've worked with people and I've played sports with people that are just fucking assholes. Like they're 100% competitors. They may say something like, life's a game and I win.

16:03 Just as an example. I don't fucking admire that. Because my impression of a saying like that is, you are willing to step on the fucking skulls of people to the left and right of you to be in quotes the winner. And I don't want to die as that being on my tombstone. Yeah, right, right. So that's an example. It isn't at all costs. And I think it's worth clarifying to this example you're talking about, right? There was nothing, we did nothing nefarious. There was nothing at all. No, no, no. No, it was competitor ads. It's like, are we going to do it? Are we not? And we're honestly in full transparency. We're wrestling with the concept.

16:44 There may be a felt a little bit more charge in this conversation than maybe we're intended. But long and short of it, we're very transparent about what Chris and I are wrestling with. And it's why we took the chance and do this show. And we're hopeful that at the end of the day, this stuff helps people be honest about the stuff that they're fighting with. So again, I don't want to hang in this pocket on this example, but that's a realistic example that a lot of the people listening are probably going to run into. And that wrestling match is worthwhile to me because I want to walk this line where I'm honored and respected because I play at the top tier and I want to be able to end my race at the end of my days and know I'm not fucking alone in that room. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard. Yeah, we want to be proud. It's hard to do both.

17:24 We want to be proud of what we built and how we built it. And how we built it, man. Yeah, not just the end result, but how did we play the game. How did we play the game? Yeah. And I think as leaders inside our organizations, this is one of the hardest things that we do is we wrestle with this line that we walk with. where are we really being honoring in the relationships that we have with our employees, our team members? And yet, are we still playing at the very top of our game to create the best organization that delivers the highest level of service, that toes the line, that has high expectations and expects people to earn and win?

18:06 at those level of expectation. And it's a hard game to play. But what I just keep getting shown is that if you're failing for it, if you're trying, you're not always going to be rad. You're going to have ups and downs. You're going to have mistakes. You're going to think a decision is the right decision. And you're ultimately going to learn in the rearview mirror it wasn't. And you're going to have regrets at times. And you're going to have to have sincere apologies. And it's not going to be easy. But man, dude, when you get a text message from somebody five, six years after you've even walked beside them and they tell you that you had a meaningful impact on their life professionally and personally, that is all I need to go wrestle with that balance, with that dance one more fucking time tomorrow and the week after that and the year after that and the month after that because it's worth it.

18:57 And you're not always going to get rewarded. in the midst of the battle. Yeah. And it's going to drive you at times to feel like the asshole card is the ultimate card because people are going to shit on you. People are going to take advantage at the time where you didn't quite get the balance right and you gave them more room than they should have gotten. People are going to hate you at times when you don't get it correct and you drive too hard into the accountability and you miss the relationship. But the fight, the dance to balance both is the most rewarding experience and journey that any of us have the honor to experience. And it's just worth it.

19:38 And I think over the last week, I've just been in this position where I've been facing both simultaneously. And it is in these moments where you get to experience both simultaneously, both meaning frustration because it doesn't feel like you're making the right decision and being rewarded by somebody's words saying thank you. When you can live in that simultaneously, sometimes it's just a great reminder of how hard the balance is, but how worth the balance is, man. And just a face full of that this week. And it's coming from multiple different circumstances and multiple different relationships. And these are not relationships that come without weight. These are interesting relationships from my past.

20:20 that are reaching out actively. And, you know, it's interesting. Sometimes I can't tell if it's karma, if it's God or what it is. But when you just have a series of these things that all happen at the same finite piece of time, you know, it's unbelievably impactful. Liftify.com forward slash bloodlight. You've heard Brandon and I talk a bunch of times about the importance of Google reviews. Maybe you even heard our episode with Zach Garrett, the CEO and founder. Recency, consistency, two of the most important things when it comes to maximizing the benefit from your Google reviews. Why not use an outside partner? Liftify is targeting 20 to 25% conversion, right? So if you do a thousand jobs a year, you ought to be adding right now, 200 to 250 reviews a year, every single year.

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23:51 Does any of this make sense? I just feel like I'm kind of babbling. I'm in a season right now with my 16-year-old, my son, where I feel like I'm starting to really understand what you're talking about relative to being a dad, you know? I feel like for so much of my kids' upbringing, so my kids are 19, 16, 13. And for probably the first 10 years of being a parent, so hyper fixated on their behavior standards. I mean, I'm making myself sound like a hard ass, but I was in my own way. Like I was constantly sort of correcting. Yeah. Constantly.

24:32 And I really missed the relationship. Yeah. And because I was constantly correcting, I kind of got stuck in this frustrated attitude and mindset with the kids. It doesn't mean we don't have good times and I didn't hug them and all, right? But there was definitely an imbalance. Yeah. It was more accountability. And I think a lot of it was driven out of fear that if I didn't, that I was failing them as a parent. Like my primary job is to be a disciplinarian and to show them the way and all this kind of stuff. And I think now in hindsight, and as they get older, I'm like, you know, it's actually amazing to me how smart they are in terms of what they should be doing and what kind of life is asking of them, of how little they of that accountability they actually need from me.

25:24 They need it. Yeah. They need it. They need boundary lines. They're going to test what's appropriate in terms of pushback and all that kind of stuff. But how much more they need my love. And when we get it right, like I've been experiencing this over the last really several months, this last year really with my son, Jack in particular, my 16-year-old, is when I find that pocket of when I'm keeping short accounts, I'm dealing with things as they come up that are problematic. Yeah. Hey, man, I'm doing the story in my head with him. Yeah. Hey, story in my head is when you looked kind of cross-eyed at me or you snapped at your mom in the hallway in that interaction...

26:07 Like, this is what was going on for me, right? What was going on for you? I don't want to assume any, you know, like I'm processing these things regularly. I'm checking some of the bad behaviors as they come up. And at the same time, we're quickly getting back to hugs. And hangouts, it's just, there's something really magical about finding that balance you're talking about. Yeah. As a parent in particular, but of course, I think all of us, we've felt what that's like to be in that pocket with our spouses as well. And so, yeah, what you're saying really resonates with me is that it has to be both and it's not easy. It's not. And it's why most people move through their life with very few meaningful relationships.

26:50 And often they struggle to have the impact as a leader that they want to have because they're either, either they just aren't oriented around it or they're afraid to build relationship. Yeah. or they're afraid to be seen as the asshole. And so they hesitate to provide any kind of accountability. Yeah. And there's a million reasons how we get there. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the thing that feels a little bit more sinister about the whole situation is, is you don't, I feel like in a lot of ways, none of us consciously decide to slip hard into one lane or the other. I just think life experiences, natural wiring, past experiences, blah, blah, blah. They just drive this behavior and you begin to lean harder and harder into it. I think, you know, if I'm honest too, I think sometimes people are too simple.

27:34 Like this is going to sound so judgmental. And I just, I'm not trying to judge. Like I just know that I've slipped in and out of both lanes and I've had all of these reasons influencing me at some way or another. Yeah, they're just sleepwalking. They're just kind of sleepwalking. you know, or, or you watch. And we had a real heavy conversation with a series of business owners early in the year where they were doing things for their people and they felt taken advantage of. They felt forgotten. They felt like, I know I have people in my history, Chris. Some of it is misinterpretation and some of it, I was just so self-centered in the moment. Mm-hmm. that people have felt that way about me. And God forbid, if I was the catalyst that made that person begin to become more guarded or shut down or more resistance to wanting to build relationship with a future employee because of the way I interacted with them or treated the hand or whatever you would say.

28:31 And so I've been on all sides. Like I am not saying any of this in judgment. Oh, yeah, same. It's just, I'm just trying to process out loud. And I see it. I've had people shit on me, man, that makes it extremely difficult to want to extend the hand of relationship to the next person. Yeah. Because in your mind, you just begin to buy into this mentality that when I am kind... People take advantage of me. I'm never going to do that again. And I have plenty of horror stories. Sure. Just like most of the people listening. Sure. Where they've had these situations where people have taken advantage of kindness.

29:12 And it makes it harder for them to be kind again. And I think the opportunity and what I'm trying to just lean more into is finding this very mature balance of both of those things happening simultaneously. You know, and I was thinking about this the other day, like if we're hiring team members that based on skill set, yeah, we have a really interesting example of this. Based on skill set, based on background. based on personality, you're inviting someone to participate in a team where the standards are just going to be too high for them to commit to, that's the problem. The problem isn't whether you have high expectations or the way that you manage relationship.

29:54 If at first you hire someone that can't fit in the kind of culture that your organization wants to live with, that is the problem. You will not be able to do one of the other or balance it enough to make them a good fit. Mm-hmm. And I know it's hard to find good people that fed our culture. I believe the majority of that problem stems from we don't know how to articulate the culture we're trying to hire for anyway. Well, okay, not only that, but here's, I think the other trap is that we haven't done the work often to create an onboarding pathway for somebody who has the right character and the right drive and the right values to be able to learn the things they need to do.

30:38 We're too hyper focused on finding people that know how to do the things so that we don't have to train them. Yep. Rather than us orienting around, I need the right kind of person on my team. 100%. And we have systems and processes in place to provide them the education and the equipping they need to do the thing. 100%. We don't need, you know, we've talked about this before relative to sales. Sales is a real tricky minefield. Yeah. You get the wrong salesperson on your team. It doesn't matter if they can sell. They can really screw up your business. Oh, yeah. They can really screw up your business. They can turn the operations team against the sales team. They can create all kinds of drama. And of course, this can happen anywhere in your team.

31:18 But with salespeople, their charisma, their verbal orientation, right? Right. All of those things can really conspire to create a lot of chaos. Yeah. Then the team, if you get the person with the wrong character. Yeah. The reality is, and we've been preaching this for a while, is that if somebody has the right disposition, the right personal drive, desire, and character, right? If they're trustworthy, right? They inspire trust in the people that they meet. It doesn't matter if they've had sales background. Yeah. You can teach them how to ask the right questions that lead to the right kinds of conversations with prospects.

31:59 You can teach them the activity cadence that they need to deploy, how often they need to be in front of people and so forth, if they've got the right character and values. Yeah, yeah. But instead, what we tend to do is we tend to chase the dollar signs and the resume bullets. Yeah, yeah. And then when we find out this person is a toxic cancer cell that we just invited into our business, we're surprised. Yeah. And it's hard for us then to make the decision that is probably best. Especially if they're producing. Oh my gosh. I mean, you and I have had so many scenarios like that, not just with salespeople, but estimators, high powered, very successful PMs.

32:39 Yeah. They create as much drama and disturbance on the team as they do revenue, but they make the revenue. Yeah, yeah. You know, they produce 50, 60 K a week. You know, like, ah, hard to get somebody that awesome. You know, maybe we, maybe we should just make do. And we end up sacrificing our culture for money. And in the long run though, we end up losing the money because we lose all the other key awesome people on the team because they don't want to work with that asshole. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think there's so many different ways that we kind of make contact with these kind of decisions and this balance that we're trying to create between the two. I think part of what I just want to communicate today is encouragement.

33:20 Like, if you're a leader listening to this and you wrestle with this balancing act of relationship and accountability... good for you. First off, the fact that you're wrestling is a good sign. And it's a good sign because it means you're the type of human being that people should want to work for and with. Because you're aware and you are trying to find the balance between the two. And some days that balance seems easy and most of the time it feels absolutely exhausting. But I would just encourage you, A, If this is a fight that you commonly find yourself fighting, good for you.

34:02 And lean into the fact that it's a fight that you fight. Because it says a lot about you as a human and the character that you bring to the company and to your role as a leader. I think the second thing I would just want to encourage all of us in is... Don't get it twisted. Try to be bullish on the fact that accountability is love. Accountability is a sign of respect to a human and the relationship that you have with them. And as a leader and as a steward of an organization, it is absolutely your job to create accountability. It is an honorable role for you to hold. And I would encourage you in that too, you know? Yeah. You know, this is, I feel like in some ways, I've been a little bit more of a late bloomer in this area of holding people accountable than maybe you.

34:49 And I think probably, no doubt, some of that comes from your early military experience of being taught how to lead and hold people accountable, hold the line, right? But for me, and I've talked about it before on the podcast, is somebody who's kind of come up in that wooing side of the business of persuading people. right? And winning people over and getting people to like me as a sales rep, right? Which is so much of what a sales rep does. Transitioning into a role of leadership. The very first hard thing that I encountered was, I can't just be my sales rep's friends. And yet, overcoming that instinct to woo and cajole... as now a leader was like, it's been years in process.

35:30 And I feel like in many ways, I'm still growing in that area, that willingness to bring honesty to the relationship, even when it may conflict with the person quote, liking me. Right. But I think this has been helpful for me in really understanding what is accountability and, For me, I had this realization, gosh, a few years ago. And I can't remember if I was talking to Amy, one of the executive coaches that you and I've worked with. Yeah. Or what, but I made this connection with what you were kind of referring to, which is, if I'm not 100% honest with my people, whether it be my peers, clients, right now it's primarily clients that I'm working with and giving honest input to. Mm-hmm. but when I had my sales teams in the field, I'm not honest with them.

36:14 I'm preventing them from being their best because I might be the only person that has enough visibility into their role and their behavior to really give them concrete feedback that they can improve on, right? So that's number one is I may be the only voice that really has an opportunity to speak to that with credibility. And two, if I don't say those things, if I don't offer those things, What I'm inadvertently communicating is, I don't think you have what it takes to level up. Yeah. I don't think you have it in you. Yeah. And or I don't think you have the character or the intelligence to respond appropriately to my feedback. Right. But essentially, I'm telling them, you don't have what it takes.

36:55 Yeah. To be what I need and the team needs you to be. Yeah. Which is the worst message. Yeah. Right? Is number one, not giving those people the intel that can help them grow. Yeah. And then them ultimately coming to the conclusion later, it's why there's a few bridges I burned over the years as a business owner working with sales reps is for the first, like when I was a State Farm agent, I had five employees and they were all salespeople effectively. Yeah, yeah. And I was notorious for this. I get really frustrated with the results. I wouldn't want to have the difficult conversations. I'd hear things from my office of them not quite saying things the right way, the way I trained them, not putting in the activity that I asked them to do. And I would just kind of sit on it. Well, maybe I should just give more time. I don't want them to think I'm a micromanager asshole boss.

37:38 And so I just sit on that feedback. And then ultimately, I get so frustrated with their lack of doing what I need them to do that then I finally bring it up with loads of stacked up frustration. And then they feel about an inch tall because like, oh, shit, I didn't realize that Nordic was unhappy with my, right? And I'd burn those bridges because they felt like a little piece of crap. You know, they just felt like, oh my God, this has been going on for months. And like, he must think I'm just a total lame ass. You know, there's all these things that come with that conversation by not being honest, not holding line with accountability. It's terribly embarrassing. And I still, at times, I'll think of those past employees And at the time, I thought, well, yeah, forget them.

38:25 They were just a terrible salesperson. And now in hindsight, I'm like, no, no, no. I was a terrible boss. I failed them. They didn't fail me. I failed them because I was unwilling to have the difficult conversations with them that could have potentially helped them grow and improve. And when I started shifting and thinking about it that way, that I'm not being nice anymore. I'm not being caring. I'm not being a good boss by avoiding those critical conversations. I'm actually being exactly the opposite. Yeah, that's right. I actually am being the asshole by not having those direct conversations about their performance.

39:06 Yeah. I'm failing them. Yeah. And I'm sabotaging my own self and my own business, my own goals. Yeah. Well, and I think ultimately, in addition to that, what you're doing is you're making your role miserable. Oh, gosh. You're just making life miserable. And I don't want to say it's all controllable. We just can play a much more sophisticated role in contributing to the outcome. It's the whole Henry Cloud thing. You always get what you create or allow. Or what you allow. And I just think the majority of us in our businesses, and we go through cycles, we're going to be able to do that. we are doing more of the allowing or, or I guess more it's just the extremes. Like I think our listeners, I'm sure we could probably make some guesses on how people maybe are oriented more naturally if they're listening to our show.

39:54 But, and what are you saying? The people that snore shore are just of the more awesome variety. I think everyone that listens to our show is on the brink of awesome. I am fairly biased about that. They're all winners. They're all winners in my book. But anyways, I think that leaders just tend to fall in one bucket or the other. And neither one of them is right. I think the real honor comes from we can find the balance in both. And, you know, it's worth it. I don't know. It is worth it. It's just worth it. It's still worth it. It's worth it on all fronts. And I can say that too. You know, I mentioned this difficult conversation I had with my wife following this, talking to a friend who's got a divorce. And it was, it's always worth it. Yeah. Like whenever...

40:34 Whenever I have, and my wife has these conversations with me too. It's not just me going to my wife, right? Whenever we wade through the murky water of trying to balance, hey, I love you and, I love you and, I'm troubled by this, I'm frustrated by that. Whenever we wade through those waters, it's like we always get through to the other side and we're better off, both of us. Yeah. Both of us, because I'm not holding, I'm not carrying something, some kind of grievance or frustration with, with the other. And the other knows exactly how I'm feeling. They're not guessing where do I stand with this other person, which so many of us move through our relationships, not knowing quite where we stand or the other people around us always kind of on eggshells, not knowing quite what you're thinking about, you know, how they, how they're doing.

41:22 So, you know, it's, it's funny. I was kind of just taking stock as you were chatting, of the most memorable reach outs that I've had from past relationships or even current relationships where somebody's thanking me for the role that I played as a leader. And you know what, man? It is literally one for one Every single one of them had a scenario where we had to dig into some very uncomfortable behaviors. Yeah. Like every one of them has had, if not one, multiple scenarios where we had to have very tough conversations.

42:03 Yeah. Not always because of their behavior, sometimes because of mine. Yeah. Yeah. Every one of those relationships that I can point towards where somebody came out from the past and said, hey, thank you for doing what you did as my employer, as my leader. Every one of them. There was these moments in the relationship where hard accountability conversations, adjustments were required, and behaviors, approaches. Every one of them, man. It makes sense to me because you know what? I think there's a parallel with customer experience, right? It's like nobody expects a company to be perfect. So the question in the back of people's minds at all times, whether you're hiring a plumber for your own home or you're hiring a vendor for your property management company or something else, it's like, you know there are no such thing as perfect service providers.

42:55 There's no such thing as a perfect restaurant, a perfect company. So the question in the back of your mind is when something negative happens, how are they going to respond to that negative thing? And I think that's why that happens. Why those tend to be the most memorable experiences is when things go sideways, when things go sideways, when there's some kind of negative thing going on, how does this person act or manage me or lead me, react, respond, when things aren't great? Because all of us, I think, naturally have the capacity to rejoice and be happy and excited when everything is just swimmingly.

43:35 Oh, yeah. It was just like... Our spouse runs to the front door and is kissing our face and has an afternoon snack. It's like all of us know how to behave well when everything's going right and we're being treated the way we want to be treated and we're behaving well. But it's like, no, we're all curious. How is this person going to treat me when things aren't right? When I'm not doing well or they're not doing well? What is their response going to be in those situations? And I think it's the biggest trust building opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know? I agree. I think you're spot on. Yeah, I think you're spot on. Well, is it okay if I land the plane? Yeah, take a whack at it. I think I'm ready to close shop on this.

44:16 That's normally your role, Nordic. I'm the plane lander. Listen, if this has held value for you and or you're in kind of a reflective place here in Q4, you're thinking about the business. You're thinking about your own leadership, your own behaviors. And maybe it's stirring up some failings, some things. You're thinking of some situations and you're like, man, I need to process through that. Maybe I need to even go talk to somebody about how I handled that past situation. But you're in that kind of reflective posture. Hang there. I think that's our takeaway is this stuff is worth thinking about. The balance we're striking in our relationships, not just at work, but at home. And then further, right? If you're thinking about your business this next year and you've considered what would it look like and how could it potentially be an accelerator for us to work with an outside coach or consultant to chase the targets we've set for ourself, the pro forma that you're maybe building out right now with your leadership team.

45:12 And you're like, what would it look like for us to have an outside partner that help us drive accountability, equip our team, make the necessary changes, execute, etc. We have some client slots that are opening up here actually in Q4 that for new clients to come in. We're growing as a team. And so it's giving us greater capacity. If you're interested in that, reach out to us. floodlightgrp.com. Reach out, kick the tires. We'll have an initial meet and greet call. We'd love to talk shop and learn about your business. And if it seems like there's some alignment there, we can give you all the details and take you through the process. But a lot of people are in that mindset right now. What are we going to do for 2025? And how do we... What needs to change within our business in order for us to hit the targets we've set out for ourselves?

45:59 Yeah, yeah. Because there's always something that needs to move. There's always some aspect of our behaviors across the team or as us as owners that needs to change so that we can become the person or the team that can do what we've set out to do. And you and I, I mean, part of the reason why we started Floodlight is that you and I have hired consultants and coaches throughout our career. We have them now. We had them when we were coming up in the industry. And there is something about having a third party outside that's, of the business that's helped drive progress. Yeah. It's a special relationship. It is a special relationship. And we, it's been really an honor to build out floodlight and to kind of at scale, be able to have that kind of impact.

46:41 So anyways, if you've been thinking about that and you want to kick the tires, floodlightgrp.com, you can snoop around there and then hit us with a message and we'll get on the phone and we can talk about your situation and how we could potentially partner. Love it. Okay. All right. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart, and Boots. And if you're enjoying the show, but you love this episode, please hit follow, formerly known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.