EP 152 - "Getting To Know Your Anger, With Dr. Sotelo"

0:00 Well, amigo. Yeah. How are you, sir? I'm well. Are you feeling angry today? Let me think about that. About some things. Yeah, probably. I don't know. Cheesy dad joke. I think about it, but I think it falls under like yin-yang. Like, oh, let me think. Probably somewhere. Some part of me is, yeah. Some part of you is angry. Yeah, that was just a dad joke way to intro our guest for today. We're going to hang out in the angry zone. We're not going to be angry. But anyways, dear friend of mine, Dr. Nick Sotella, I've known this gentleman for a long time, admired him for a long time. He's one of those gentlemen that is a constant researcher and learner. He's like just hungry to gain more knowledge and then quickly learns how to deploy that knowledge and the benefit and the effort of others.

0:40 And he's got a long, long career in juvenile corrections. And I think one of the things that happens when you're in an environment like that is you inevitably start poking at the cause and effect, right? You see these young men and you see the places they come from and then inevitably the impact that they have on the people around them. And I think you just get curious about how did we get here in the first place? And is there anything we can do about it? And inevitably that led him and his research kind of hungry mind towards a broader and deeper understanding into anger and its effect on us. And so it was an interesting conversation. You and I have been curious about this. It comes up a lot. I think we've been very transparent with my story of anger and how you've played a key role and helped me shift there. And there's been benefit in my life from that.

1:21 Well, I think you and I have talked to people that follow the show, like talked about how different anger can look. Yeah. And I think that was one of my biggest takeaways from this conversation. It's a really good conversation, folks. Like this is Saddle In. It's very, it was very helpful for me even to talk through this stuff again. Yeah. And not only recognizing the different ways that anger can come out, but more importantly, like anger isn't necessarily something for us to be ashamed about, guilty about, or try to suppress or push down. Yeah. The goal is not necessarily to not be angry. Yeah. It's more to notice and learn to manage how we behave. Yeah. When we're angry. So tight. And so we just dig into all the different ways that that shows up and that looks and some strategies for how to live with our anger or to move through our anger.

2:09 And it was just really incredible. I think it was a super tactical conversation. Yeah. I think it's a great one. All right, guys. Buckle up. Let's figure it out. Wow. How many of you have listened to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast? I can't tell you that reaction, how much that means to us. Welcome back to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brandon. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. This new camera angle makes my arms look smaller than yours. I'm noticing that and I really appreciate it. I thought you did that on purpose. No, I don't. I didn't. And I am not happy with it. Hey, y'all. Thanks so much for listening to the show. Hey, if you're not already following, please do so.

2:50 And ultimately share, right? The coolest currency that we have in terms of supporting this is share it with a friend, share it with somebody, a colleague, a peer, one of your downline team members. Let them be able to take advantage of the information you're already leveraging in your favor. And finally, guys, if you hear a show that really moves you, that really moves the needle, will you please leave us a review? Those five-star reviews help Right on. And listen, if you're trying to grow your business, you might consider checking out Floodlight's Business Opportunity Audit. It's free. We provide it at no charge. It's actually what we use to assess new clients as they come in. It's 110 point assessment for your business. And we've now decided to give access to the general public for it.

3:32 So go and take our business opportunity audit at floodlightgrp.com. It's going to help you identify the biggest gaps and opportunities in your business right now. And at the end, it'll assign you a health score to let you know exactly where your business stands right now. So go check it out, floodlightgrp.com forward slash audit and take the BOA. It's a great way to get a pulse on your business. Well, Dr. Sotelis, thanks so much for hanging out with us. This has been kind of a long time coming. You were on the show, geez, in like 1942, I think, when we launched. Early days. Yeah, the early days. I think it was still black and white television when we had you on last time. But anyways, we've been excited to get you back on and we're going to dive a little bit deeper into the whole anger side of things.

4:15 And so we're excited to kick off conversation with you, my friend. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me back. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. For the uninitiated, though, because some people maybe didn't pick up that episode, would you mind just giving just a real quick background on kind of your role and maybe the different occupations you've filled? Sure. Ultimately, where you are now. Give us your recent history. Yeah. quick little bio. Is that what you want? There you go. That's what I was searching for. We don't have to feel like every bullet point between being born and now, but... Yeah, absolutely. So let's just say that in terms of leadership, leadership is something that I'm passionate about. I have experienced leadership that has been excellent, and I've experienced leadership that has been poor, and I've had the responsibility of leading critical teams and inside correction facilities.

5:03 That's my background. I had 23 years in the youth correctional system in the state of Oregon. And towards the end of my career in leadership capacity, I was leading four different teams, which included four of the highest risk living units that the state of Oregon has. had to offer in terms of state level corrections. So that's what I mean when I said I was responsible for leading teams in critical areas. And part of my driver for going back into that type of work, meaning I was outside the fence, as we called it, right? Working for the agency, but outside the fence. Went back in the fence to cap off and finish my career, knowing that I wanted to be focused on leadership and staff development more than anything.

5:45 Yeah. Because I've had that experience where you lose a key person in the agency and they leave this void behind them. And I knew that I was going to leave sooner than later. And so I didn't want to leave a void. And so my thought was, why not go back in and do my darndest to go in and help shape people in a positive way with the best leadership that I could offer? So that way, when I left, I didn't leave a void. I would leave behind an army of people that were ready to step in and do the work. So at some point, and hence where we're going to be diving in today, I remember just kind of watching you not only with your podcast, your show, obviously, and your profile beginning to shift a bit in your socials and some of the things that you were beginning to focus on and really center your attention on and you began to make some progress.

6:35 pretty big adjustments directly into this whole kind of thought around anger, anger management, and some of the negatives, right? That I guess wielding that completely unbridled is having on folks. What stirred that? Like when did that direction shift start to happen? What was the Yeah, I mean, I'll pull a page from one of my mentors, Dr. Jeff Spencer, and he talks about having receptivity. And there are things in this world, in this life that you don't necessarily plan for. You're not expecting, but yet there they are. And you have to have an attitude or a mindset of receptivity. So the origin story for that was I was part of a dad's online mastermind at the time.

7:15 And this was right when COVID was setting in as a reality, meaning the world was literally starting to shut down. So probably April-ish, March, April-ish, you know, of 2020. And the owner of this mastermind asked if I would be willing to write up some curriculum for our agendas that we would go through on a monthly basis. Kind of it was a short turnaround, needed a yes and a product fairly quickly. And so I put forth four things that I could pretty quickly turn around and create an agenda around that. And, you know, anger resolution at the time, as I called it, was one of those options and that was what was selected. And so that rolled out to about 200 men through this mastermind. And then the feedback was that it was at the time it was the most impactful agenda that the group had been through.

8:02 And through that process, then I took over the tactical agenda, writing responsibilities for the next two or so years. But that was the receptivity that I'm talking about. That was, again, I put out four options. This was something that was chosen. And the feedback was that this was highly impactful for the men. So I just continued to roll that boulder uphill ever since then. What was the, because I do remember, even when we talked last time, you introducing that group. And I remember doing some kind of social research, if you will, into the founder and some of the things that he believed in, and then ultimately started following the podcast, right, that they run that's associated with that group. So just for the sake of clarity, when we're saying like 200 men, right, that you presented this topic to, and obviously it was hugely impactful.

8:50 What's the premise of that, though? Like kind of what is this group? What are they trying to do? What's the goal of being a part of it? Because I think that's part of what tells the story why it was so relevant. Absolutely. So no need to keep the group and the founder mysterious. So that was Larry Hagner and the Dad Edge podcast. I started out as being the Good Dad Project was the earlier name and domain name. And then the mastermind is called the Dad Edge Alliance. So I was part of the mastermind. And at the time, there was about 200 members. There's roughly about 800 members in that group now. And that podcast has sat at number one in the family space for several weeks, if not months, you know, over the past year or so. I think he just interviewed Chuck Liddell recently, had Matthew McConaughey on not that long ago and those types of folks.

9:35 So, yeah, that's the backdrop of, you know, again, the origin story of Anger Resolution for sure. Yeah. And it's just kind of this idea, at least from my limited perspective of it's men trying to be the best version of themselves, right? Understanding what masculinity actually looks like. What is fun? Yeah. I mean, the motto is helping men live legendary. And there's five pillars of what it means to be a man. Leadership and providing is one of them. And, you know, epic connections with kids, strengthening your marriage, mental and physical health, right? So those are basically the pillars that we focused on in that group. That's sweet. Okay, so let's get into it, man. Where did you take them out of the gate? And I think just I think one of the opportunities for us as listeners is to get an idea of some of the folks that you're now working with with people one on one in this space.

10:19 I'd love to hear more about just kind of that story as it's evolved and what kind of impact that you're experiencing. Let's start getting into some of the experiences that you've had around it. Yeah, so I think it's important to also start out with what makes this different or what makes my approach to it different. And kind of the consistent feedback that I get from men that are my clients about what they appreciate it and maybe what their concerns were on the front end. But after getting into it, having those concerns set at ease. And so my approach is there's nothing wrong with anger, first and foremost. So anger is a normal, natural feeling. And when you contrast that with traditional anger management, that's not the message. So the message is that anger is wrong, anger is a secondary emotion, and that if you have a problem with anger, the goal is to not be angry anymore.

11:08 And so I don't ascribe to that. So I believe that there's four primary emotions, mad, sad, glad, and afraid. They kind of rhyme mad being analogous to anger here. And they're there for survival reasons. Right. And so what I try to communicate to men or what I do communicate to men is anger is just a light on the dashboard. It's that red light. And all it's telling you is that there's something that needs your immediate attention. OK, there's nothing more, nothing less. And so that makes anger not secondary, but also primary. Now, it can be the reason why it can be secondary. is because if you don't have a good enough relationship with the other feeling states and you only connect well with anger, well, that's when sadness goes into the anger bucket, so to speak, right?

11:48 So there is some merit to the idea of anger being secondary, but it's not by definition secondary. And so that's where I'm a distinguisher. And that's what men find relieving, at least on the front end, is that my goal isn't to help them to never be angry again, right? There is a place for anger. If If a bear is charging at your family, anger is probably going to kick in if fear doesn't. Right. And so that's OK. Right. If you see a kid being smacked by somebody, you know, at the grocery store, anger is probably an appropriate response. Right. And so there is a there's a time and place for anger. But if your anger is your only go to connection for feelings, that's when it becomes a problem. I've had my own journey with anger and... Most men do. Yeah.

12:29 My wife has been so instrumental in kind of me becoming aware of my anger. And, you know, one of the early conversations that was pretty frequent between my wife and I is my... We'd be in some kind of interaction or I'd be having some kind of interaction with my kids. And my wife would say... She would stop me and she would say, Hey, it seems like you're getting angry. And... inevitably my response in those days was defensive. Wait, I'm not angry. And then I would have some explanatory statement of what was really happening and what I was really doing. And over time, I started to have enough of a kind of pause break when she would say that to me where I could kind of like look inward and be like, oh yeah, okay, I am angry.

13:11 I probably need some time to myself or I need to think about this. What's going on here, right? Is that a pretty common response with the men that you work with initially that, and maybe it's tied to what you said, is that I think most of us are trained at anger bad. If I'm mad, that's a bad thing. I'm sinning. I'm doing something wrong by being angry or upset about something. I mean, is that a pretty common dynamic that keeps men from really learning about their anger and managing their anger more appropriately? Is that defensive kind of posture? I mean, can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're pushing me quite nicely into one of my second major points, you know, about my approach to anger work versus what you find traditionally.

13:52 And that is that it is this conundrum. So it's not anger that's the problem. It's anger behavior that gets judged as the problem. It's what you do in response to your own anger, whether you yell, whether you start cussing, whether you start being demeaning with your language or whether you physically start acting out. And so that's what gets judged as the anger issue. So learning to kind of separate those two things where, yes, you can experience anger and still have behavior that's calm, that's actually effective and supportive. So that's a huge distinction. So at the same time, you know, I think the three of us are probably within the same age generation where men in our societies and Western societies, let's say.

14:36 are conditioned to connect best with anger. And we don't get reinforced for connecting to things like being sad, right? And so think about all the kind of quips that come with men, right? Boys don't cry, don't be a pussy, all those things, right? So we actually get reinforced, especially growing up for being, quote unquote, a man more like a man. And if that comes with some anger, we actually get reinforced for it. But when we get big, When testosterone sets in and we start growing in stature, I know Brandon has raised a son. I'm not sure about you, Chris, there, but there's a point where, okay, if this person gets upset, it's going to be a little bit more than me just being able to quickly physically subdue them.

15:21 It becomes a problem, right? And so there's a societal expectation, whether it's overt or covert, for men to connect most with anger, right? And so that's where, again, the point, though, is. in play, which I think is very much in play for men, and then they wind up having an anger behavior problem that's getting them in trouble, when they go to anger management and they're being told to stop being angry, well, if that's the primary feeling state that they connect best to is anger... There is a damaging, subtle message that says, not only are you not feeling the right thing, i.e. don't be angry, it's actually telling them that feelings aren't okay for them at all.

16:02 It's actually telling them that any feelings that they're trying to experience or trying to be vulnerable with is not okay because they're primarily connecting to anger and they're being told to stop being angry. It's a pretty confusing and damaging message for men. You know, one of the things that brought this up just in full transparency before we started recording, we were just kind of going back and forth around some of our experience with some of the owners that we have the honor to work with. And the fact is, these are people that are accomplishing extraordinary things. They're building big companies, big brands, they're managing tens, if not hundreds of people. They're managing complex service offerings and really crazy environments. It's amazing what they achieve.

16:43 And we definitely have pictures and I've been one of them. I mean, Chris and I have talked at length about what my personal journey has looked like over the last probably 10 years more than anything. But they've achieved and accomplished some amazing things. And if we're honest about it, some of the anger drivers behind that, some of them living out those anger behaviors is what's helped them create that success. And so I think maybe a good place to go, Nick, if you're willing to do so is to Help us begin kind of understanding not just, you know, 30,000 feet, but these differences, right, between those behaviors, if you will, that often are showing up maybe and being displayed subconsciously now versus where are you taking people?

17:25 Like, what is the healthier deployment of some of these anger, whatever, behaviors? Yeah. I do want to circle back to Chris's account there about what happened between him and his wife there, too. So that's actually an important part of the process is just a general awareness. Right. And it sounds like in your relationship, you had the blessing for somebody who was willing to be that person to help you be aware and. a way that seemed like it was effective and supportive. I'm sure there's a lot more that went on, but that's definitely a part of the process because if you're not problem aware, then it's going to be difficult for you to see it. And that's where that defensiveness comes in that you were kind of talking about. So back over to Brandon's question then too, like when this is showing up in the workplace, especially with the boss or in leadership, what's going on?

18:10 You know, my first response there, Brandon, was is that, you know, the idea that anger being a catalyst for positive outcomes and, you know, increasing the bottom line and all those things. Yeah. So it works until it doesn't. Right. That's usually what the situation is. Right. And one of my foundational interventions here is getting men to understand. get clarity on who they are, what do they actually want, and how do they close that gap on a regular basis between where they are today and what do they actually want. Most men, even many times successful men, can't answer those questions very well. So it leaves them in this pursuit of more, right? And it's more that isn't attached to core values.

18:52 It's more that isn't really attached. Sometimes it's more that isn't actually closing the gap for them. But we get easily sucked into this driving for more, right? And so it's in my experience, you talked about on the ground things, right? Pretty much without exception, when you have somebody who's involved in sales, doesn't matter what kind of sales it is, when they have their highest quarter, month, whatever it is, on the other side of that, they'll have their worst, right? And it's because it's that straight up peak and then the value that comes after that. And they sacrificed, they pushed, it did all this, but it really wasn't aligned with their values and it wasn't actually helping them close that gap. And that's where if you don't have an understanding of any of the emotions, but including anger, that's when that thing can rear up.

19:34 And you're like, wait. We just had a great quarter. What's going on? Right. But if it wasn't really closing the gap for that person because they're not aware, that's when more just becomes more and people start. They feel empty. It's not solidifying for them. And so things like problematic anger can can really show up in those instances. And it seems really confusing to the people around them. Right. So and that's a little bit higher. It's not quite on the ground, but I'll let you kind of respond to that. Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Okay. So I just want to make sure I'm tracking with what you just said. So kind of the idea is if we're just operating from the bigger, better, faster, then we hit that more, right? It's like the, I'm going to do this so that I get the new car. I get the car ultimately, whether I'm conscious to it or not, it's a letdown.

20:17 Like we get it. That thing was cool for like half a minute. And then all of a sudden, there's this response to that thing not being what we thought it was going to be. And it could be the anger, right? That comes up, rears its head. And then our team's like, what the F? We just crushed it. And there's no meaning or rhyme to the fact now that we're all walking on eggshells because the key leader in the organization is losing his mind or her mind. Yeah. I've never even thought about it from that perspective. I'm pretty in tune with this whole, once you get the thing, it's the journey you should have probably put more weight on than the actual achieving of the thing. But I've never associated that then with an anger response, which in my world, that would be a pretty common response to that.

21:01 Yeah. Yeah. And that's problem aware, right? This is one of the ways that it manifests and it kind of seems out of nowhere, right? Well, it's there. It's because you weren't involved in a pursuit that was actually aligned with your core values and it wasn't actually closing the gap for you. So if you want to keep anger at bay, there's the simple reduction, right? Figure out who you are, figure out what your core values are, and making sure that you understand how to close the gap in a meaningful way on an everyday basis. That's crazy. Yeah. So, you know, I think for me, kind of like how I opened with that initial, those initial comments about my wife, I spent, geez, the first probably 10 years of my marriage really unconscious about how I was coming across, how my wife was experiencing me relative to my anger.

21:45 And of course, a piece of that was how I would interact with my young daughter at the time, who's wired very much like me. And so over the years, there's just been this element of strife, right? Where we just grind up against each other because we're so similar in many ways. But I was largely unaware of how I was actually affecting others in the moment. And I'm curious, like for me, again, my wife was a big savior in that regard. She was engaged in some counseling and some things through church and so about what this dynamic was actually like between myself and her and myself and our daughter at the time. And so she was able to speak to it, you know, and kind of call me out, so to speak, for some of these bad behaviors, me raising my voice, my sarcasm, you know, some of the other ways that my anger was coming out.

22:35 I'm curious if you have, like for people that are listening to this show that maybe feel like, okay, there might be something here for me, you know, as they focus in on the subject in the moment. Like, is there a way that you could help walk somebody through, like help them create some awareness around this? Does that make sense? Absolutely. Yeah. And this, again, it's another one of the criticisms I have with typical anger management, where it's the idea that a problem well-defined is a problem half solved. And so most of the time when men go into or they make the decision to address the problem, right? I'm going to go to counseling. I'm going to go get help. I'm going to go to anger management. Yeah. You know, they have this idea of how long it should take.

23:17 Right. And if it doesn't work in two weeks, well, then I'm out of here. I tried it. It doesn't work. And but part. So when you're in that dynamic, oftentimes you zip through the problem well defined. And so what I've learned to do is slow men down on the front end. and really get granular about what's making them upset or what triggers their anger. So, for example, one of my clients from the past year or so kind of zipped through that assignment that I gave them. He's like, oh, I know what it is. It's my wife and my son. Okay. And so when we got on a live session, I said, so tell me about that. So your wife and your son are your trigger? Yep. Do they trigger you constantly? Yep. So when they're asleep, they're triggering you? Well, maybe not. Okay, so what is it really about? Any long story short, what it really came down to is it's when his wife and his son would lock horns and they would be in gridlock and that he would have to respond and intervene.

24:06 And he wasn't effective there. And then he would then erupt in anger and then make things worse. I'm like, ah, okay. It's not, I mean, categorically, yes, it's your wife and your child, but really what it is, it's an experience of you being made to feel ineffective, right? Because you don't know how to resolve a conflict that occurs between your wife and your son. That's really the trigger. Does that make sense a little bit about, you know, you got to slow down. You really have to identify what is really triggering your anger so that you can select the right tools then. That's the next part of the process. Again, if you don't have a good definition, if you don't really understand your triggers, well, then you get presented with these tools that may not be matched.

24:47 And if they are matched, it's by accident. It's by luck. Okay, so I'm going to go out on a limb here. I'm going to share something because this just hit me. I'll tell you if it was a bad idea later. Well, yeah, you can edit it out, I suppose. You know, when you say that, it's very interesting because that was a heavy dynamic early on in my marriage and with my young daughter. And it even continued for, I'm sad to say, probably started to work through this and had less and less of these experiences in the last few years. I wish I could say it was like 15 years ago, right? But one of the things that I learned about myself is one of my patterns was I would jump in and get really upset with my young daughter When she was not obeying, driving my wife crazy, they were engaged in some sort of spat.

25:32 And I felt like my wife maybe wasn't being strong enough in response to my daughter's behavior. And my daughter was kind of working her, so to speak. And so then I would just, I would kind of walk into this scenario and I would start barking at my daughter to get her to stop what she was doing or stop what she was saying to my wife and so forth. So in effect, kind of defending my wife, right? And one of the things I learned over time, and of course this would always piss off my wife too, because I was budding in and inevitably I was making it worse, inevitably. And one of the things I realized over time is part of what was happening inside me was that I made the connection that when my wife got into these kind of situations with my daughter, it would really kind of put my wife in a bad mood to some degree.

26:21 And it meant often that then that would affect her openness. Yeah, I know where you're going. to being romantic or lovemaking with me and having a date later that night. It would sideline those things because my wife was in a funk from these interactions with my daughter. And so what I realized is, is that my anger was really from my anxiety around, well, oh, now we're not going to be able to have our date night, or this isn't going to happen, this thing that I've been anticipating and looking forward to. My daughter is screwing up this... this good thing that I want. And of course, that completely changes the whole situation, right?

27:03 And like potentially how I would go about engaging in that situation, knowing that that's really the thing happening inside me is I'm pissed off at my daughter because she's screwing up my date night with my wife. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I don't know if that's something you've seen before, if that's like a common dynamic, but that was a real big discovery for me. Just like there's this presenting problem, which I would have said, my daughter's being disrespectful to my wife and I need to step in and like be the disciplinarian, so to speak, and inevitably just making it worse and worse because the other thing that's happening really, then when my daughter's barking back at me, when I step in, my anger just keeps escalating because, I'm getting further and further and further away from the thing that I really want, which is to make love to my wife.

27:51 Right. And now my daughter is the object in the way. Yeah. Right. So it seems a little, it's a little bit embarrassing. Right. To talk about this out loud, but it was a very real thing for me and for us. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And again, I, you know, to the people listening, I swear I didn't give them the whole program so they could do the study and lob up softballs. But again, you're, you're again, marching into the next thing. Right. And so once you, once you've got a good definition of what anger is, what your triggers are, well, then the next thing is, is again, getting granular again on all the ways that it's impacting your life. Right. And really, and taking your time with it. So that would have been an example of, you know, sifting through my wife and my daughter get into it.

28:34 And then it makes me mad. Okay, well, what else happens? Right. And then we're getting you through a series of what else happens. Like, well, then it ends up, you know, I'm screwing up my date night, which means, you know, my love life is suffering. Oh, okay. Like I get now why you're pissed off about it. Right. It makes some sense there. Right. Yeah. In your experience, though, how hard is it to get... Let me see. There's kind of like almost two parts to this, Nick. How hard is it to get guys specifically to take the time to think through that? And maybe the first part of that is, is there a way for you to bring something like this to somebody's attention before they've had some kind of experience where they're already going, oh man, I got something to work on here?

29:17 Does that make sense? Yeah. It does. I mean, I totally understand what you're saying. And the answer is, is that, again, the way that most men are wired, they won't give something the attention that is due until it's in the red zone. Yeah, they have. And I mean, that's just the reality of it. If you can, some men will understand that and learn how to self monitor and to knowing that they don't want to be in the red zone. But that's not most men. And so I end up working best with men who are in the red zone. red zone and they know it or they've been made aware of it or they've been given an ultimatum. You know, do something or lose your job. I'm out of here.

29:57 Kid won't talk to you, whatever it is. So there's some level of ultimatum that then forces them to give it the attention and it's doing. I wish it wasn't that way. But honestly, that's where some of my best work has occurred. It's even come from men who have been through anger management. And they're kind of back at square one, right? And so I try to speak to those men. I've had plenty of, I've watched this too, like just like Brandon, have you watched me kind of evolve over time? I've seen, I've been on clarity calls with men where I give them the anger blueprint. And, you know, there's an offer to work with me and they turn it down. And then I see over time, the spiral that they get themselves caught in. And it's like, only so much you can do there, right?

30:39 So yeah, I wish that, What we're doing here is an aspect of that, to be honest with you. The more that I can get my message out and get somebody to hear it and maybe take it more on a preventative level. Yeah. Right. They're in the yellow. Yeah. Not in the red zone. Yeah. I wish that that was something that men would pay attention to. But honestly, it's usually something that they ignore, they suppress, they deny. And like I said, it works for them until it doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So... I've been looking forward to this conversation. I love it. Appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. Can you speak a little bit to the different ways that anger can show up? Like some of the presenting behavior that I, that I wanted to go because I think, you know, sometimes we can like, again, like my early example of I'm not angry.

31:27 We can have that response. And what are some of the different ways that others experience a person's anger or ways, I guess, that anger can show up? I think one thing for me is anger for me at times has been sarcasm. Like sarcasm responses to my kids, my wife or other people. Another thing that I guess I commonly would go to is shut down, just withdrawal. Right? Yeah, withholding. Yeah, withholding. Withholding relationship, right? Withholding connection because I'm angry or I feel something negative or whatever. What are some of the other ways that anger shows up? Because I think some people are just those white hot anger, yellers, screamers, cussers.

32:11 And in others, their anger looks completely different. Can you speak to that a little bit? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so I mean, grossly speaking, you have ways that you act in versus act out, right? And so you kind of mentioned some of them already, right? It's the overt white hot people that yell and scream. They cuss and swear. That's an acting out type of response to anger. But the shutting down and the stonewalling, the withdrawal is an acting in. Sometimes it's the extreme lone wolf syndrome. I always make things worse or people don't like what I say. I don't know what to do different. So therefore, I'm just going to pick up my ball and go home. And you can do that in a variety of ways, right? You can do that in your relationship. You know, if you're in a leadership capacity, that means that you aren't being present.

32:52 You're just not being present. Like you're those people that depend on you. Sometimes it's out of this fear of, I always make things worse, right? So there's some shame and self-loathing there. And it's also an energy. Like if you have, you know, longstanding patterns of destructive anger in your life. It's an energy that's in you that other people can sense. And especially in the business world. And so what I'll tell men that are in the business world, that it's costing you your next big sale. It's costing you your next big project. There's people in your network right now that are brainstorming their next move and they're not inviting you. Why? Because they know that there's an edge about you that they're concerned about.

33:33 You know, they may dearly love you. They, you know, they may know that if their car is broken down, that you're going to be the one to go there, you know, and help them out. But when it comes to, you know, things that might be at risk business wise, they're not going to invite you. They're not even going to tell you about it, right? Because you have this energy and this edge about you that people can sense, right? And so those are kind of some of the subtle ways that anger can come out in the business world for men. And maybe they can't. put their finger on it. They plateau and they can't figure out why, right? Because as you know, right, you can drive a company or a business to a certain height or in breadth by yourself, right?

34:14 But you all know that in order to scale, you have to figure out how do you remove yourself from all of those single points of everything being dependent on you, which means you have to expand your network, you've got to build relationships, and if you have that anger edge to you, good luck doing that because nobody's going to be wanted associated you know, hitched to your trailer, so to speak, for those things. So you plateau and you can't figure out why. Liftify.com forward slash bloodlight. You've heard Brandon and I talk a bunch of times about the importance of Google reviews. Maybe you even heard our episode with Zach Garrett, the CEO and founder. Recency, consistency, two of the most important things when it comes to maximizing the benefit from your Google reviews.

34:55 Why not use an outside partner? Liftify is targeting 20 to 25% conversion, right? So if you do a thousand jobs a year, you ought to be adding right now, 200 to 250 reviews a year, every single year. If you're not doing that, you owe it to yourself to get a free demo from liftify.com. See their system, see how it works, see how affordable it is. I promise you, you'll thank us. Liftify.com forward slash bloodlight. You know, we spend a lot of money and a lot of attention trying to get that first call. And one of the things that we do once it happens is sometimes we leave it to chance, right? Who picks up the phone? How do they respond? How do they walk that client into a relationship with us? Well, one of the benefits of partnering with a team like AnswerForce.com is we can systemize that.

35:40 We can make it more consistent. We can also have backup for when our teams need that help, right? Somebody goes on vacation. Somebody's out sick. You know, we get a storm surge, we get cat event. All sorts of things can have an impact on how we receive that client. But the most important thing is they need to know that they've chosen the right team. And so AnswerForce.com can support you, be a bolt-on partner to help you consistently produce an awesome onboarding experience with that first call with your client. So AnswerForce.com forward slash answerforce.com. blood light. Sounds great. CNR Magazine, we're friends with all the folks at CNR. Michelle and her team, they do a great job of keeping their ear to the ground and reporting all the important information from our industry.

36:22 Right? You want to stay up on all the M&A activity and what the latest best practices are for selling your company successfully. Right? She's got that. Great articles about all the four quadrants of our business. Right? CNR is constantly pushing out great material and leveraging great writers and subject matter experts in our industry. It is the water cooler of our industry. So if you're not subscribed, go to cnrmagazine.com. Follow them on LinkedIn. Follow Michelle on LinkedIn. Trust us. If you're trying to stay on top of everything happening in the industry, your best destination is cnrmagazine.com. You guys, many of you have already heard about actionable insights and the training and the technical expertise that they bring to the industry.

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37:52 I think part of the challenge too, Nick, is that like, obviously that varies. Like how high, you know, somebody can take the machine on their own is unbelievably diverse. Right. And we've seen and met people. It's like, I can't even comprehend how they've done what they're essentially solo. But I think there's that, it's the whole like piece too, where a lot of times these men, and this isn't just about men, but you know what, it, for the most part, this is the most common place that it shows up. But, A lot of times these men are super successful. At least the things, the boxes that we would normally check under success. They got the boats, they got the lifestyle, they got the things. And it's like, it's hard to even argue with them.

38:35 That could be more or that they're potentially holding themselves back because if we're honest and we're measuring their performance to date... there's not a lot of point to that says that they weren't able to succeed, even though they're carting around whatever this, this anger elephant with them. So how do you begin to kind of like identify that or segregate the success from the opportunity cost, if you will, associated with the fact that people are still over leveraging these anger behaviors? That's Yeah, you know, and I would say in a lot of those instances, not all of them, right? In a lot of those instances, you know, this typical profile of a man that we're talking about who has a problem with anger, but, you know, outside looking in, they're successful, right?

39:19 Guarantee you they got a kid that won't talk to them. Guarantee you that they have, if they're not being intimate regularly with their spouse, their spouse is doing it out of duty, right? There isn't a love connection there. Guarantee that they have, you know, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, parents that won't talk to them. And maybe they write that off and say, you know, I don't need that person anyway. Those are things that are usually there. Maybe they're pretty good at hiding it. They don't mention it. It's like same but different. Right. But, you know, Dr. Laura for those years, you know, apparently she and her sister never talked to each other. Right. So. Yeah. To Chris point to two that oftentimes I'll, I'll get feedback. Well, you know, I'll get asked if I work with women and I'll say, no, I don't.

40:01 Well, you know, women get angry too. I'm like, yes, they do. Absolutely. They do. But they do for categorically different reasons. Right. Women aren't naturally conditioned to experience anger like men are. So when they do get angry, it's for categorically different reasons. Right. And my best work, although I probably could be effective with women because I understand that side of it as well. But my best work is with men around it. So I typically say no to opportunities to work with women at this point in time. Yeah. Yeah. And so, again, it's how you define success. You know, if success is material success and that I've never seen anybody, though, that ultimately is fulfilled based on material success.

40:43 You know, those are people that wind up losing it all one way or another. Those are men that wind up in some kind of addiction. Right. Whether it's substance use, alcoholism, gambling. And unfortunately, sometimes it's men that wind up taking their own life. And it makes no sense outside looking in because they have it all, quote unquote. You know, it's actually interesting that you said that. So I've been kind of geeking out on the, what is it? The Modern Wisdom. Right. Modern Wisdom. Chris Williamson. Yeah, Chris Williamson. And he's been on a bit, I don't want to say this correctly. More recently, he's had several guests that are similar in terms of what they're concerned about. And he is a proponent of men's health. And he's unapologetic about it.

41:24 And one of the things that I've heard coming up more and more, and it's actually a space that I'm interested in learning more about, is this idea that we really struggle as a community and as a culture to recognize the importance of men's health. Because often what happens is, I think one, societally, we don't probably give it as much weight as it warrants, I think is one problem. But I think the other thing that we feel and experience, and I wonder if this actually came up in your response about women versus men, is we also feel this insane pressure that if we were to say or intentionally focus on men for the sake of men, that then somehow in the same voice, we're also saying that we're reducing the value of another people group.

42:12 So in this case, women. And I think that that's made it harder for men to seek guidance and partnership on working through some of these emotional elements, our mental health. Because it feels like when somebody steps up and says men deserve it and need this, that they almost get ostracized unless in the same phrase or breath, they're saying something that's warranted or valuable to another group. Is this something that you've ran into at all as you've continued to pursue this focus on men's health? Yeah, absolutely. It's the shifting demands and responses that are expected of both men and women, right? So women, the expectations of women have shifted too.

42:55 And so this is where you kind of get into these back and forth around masculinity versus toxic masculinity, right? And all the memes that come with all those things, right? I mean, ultimately men are expected to be more emotionally available and attuned than they ever have been. And I'm not saying that that's necessarily a bad thing, but it's a different thing for sure. And part of that has to do with the advancements of society. And I know that... We're in a post-election kind of era right now. And so I'm sure there's people that would question how far our society has advanced. But nonetheless, the toil that it took to keep a family alive, that burden has been almost zeroed out.

43:40 Compared to what it was, I mean, again, I take a page out of Joe Rogan's book, right? Two people ago from us, right? So, you know, our parents and our grandparents, great grandparents, maybe three people ago had a hell of a time keeping food on the table, right? Hell of a time keeping food on the table. That's not the case anymore. You can literally sit on the couch, push a button on your remote or on your phone, and somebody will bring you a four course meal to your door. Yeah. And so when the ability to basically provide for people's needs is taken care of for you, that's shifting the role demands on men and women, for those who still believe that there's a role difference between men and women.

44:20 It's not a bad thing. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. But it's a reality that shifts that, right? Like I don't have to go and yoke my ox and plow the field anymore, right? And I don't have value for that ability to do that if I could do that because we've got tractors, right? You don't need to do that anymore, right? And so it's, and this is the same thing around basic safety and security as well, right? You can call 911. Average response time is eight minutes. Do I really need a man that has the capability of protecting when I can just call 911 9-1-1. Right. Again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with 9-1-1 or having a police force, but, you know, you kind of go, I geek out on some of those shows that are, you know, depicting what it was like, even during the frontier areas in the wild, wild west.

45:04 And when the man was away for whatever reason, they all knew that there was a good chance that there'd be some bandits that would come through and people were going to get raped. Right. And there was just a everyday lived reality of what life was like back then. Right. And we don't live like that anymore for the most part, despite what you what you see on media and TV. Right. So hopefully this is making sense. I think this is one of I have to think deep about what what is actually driving the differences and the role expectations for men and women. And one of my conclusions is, is that when our provisions that are necessary for basic survival are pretty much met. I was having this conversation in the barbershop probably last summer. Pharmacies back when they were first established, you know, in the 20s or 30s, they would attract people.

45:46 What was one of the things that they might hang in the window of their shop to attract people? Gosh, I really don't know. Yeah. A cup of cold water. They'd have little signs that you could come in and get a cup of cold water. Interesting. Like that was the motivational. Yeah. That's like how basic the needs were. Well, and how novel it was is what you're saying. Like, like to get a cold cup of water. Yeah. It was very novel. Right. And it was only at a pharmacy. You couldn't get it, you know, so I was at this barbershop and I, and they offer free waters to you as a customer. And I said, so if a homeless person came in and said, Hey, I'm thirsty. Can I get some water? what would you do? I was like, I would just go give them a bottle of water because why wouldn't you?

46:27 Right. Yeah. But again, it wasn't that long ago when, you know, the free and access to water and cold water was, was a marketing ploy to get people to come into your shop or your store. Right. And so, like I said, the leveling up of the basic provisions of what it takes to survive is shifting the, you know, the expectations on the different roles that men and women experience. Right. I don't know. It's a little bit of a side rant, but I see some head nodding, maybe some light bulbs going off. Yeah, no, it's relevant. I actually want to hang there for a minute because this is interesting. So going back to kind of what started this piece was, you know, this more recent guest, one of the things they were talking about is that... There's a couple of pieces of data right now that are really scary.

47:10 And it actually, I was quite emotional when I was hearing it. And it makes sense like why I've had some personal drive from this and personal experience that Journey Chris has been helping me in with my anger and all the things. And one of the things they were talking about is the gross increases in suicide for men. And right now, and again, some of the discrepancy is in how we're going to try to interpret the data because does it... marginalize one group or another or whatever the case may be. But one of the things they were talking about now is that in worst case or best case, it's one in three. And they're saying it's probably more realistic that it's one in two suicides are met.

47:52 So when they look at the global stats around suicide, the increases are crazy. And almost all of the increases are being driven specifically by males who are taking their own life. And that to me, I'm just thinking about that relationship to my son and my son being 25 now and starting to enter the adult world and think about creating families and all these things. And one of the things that was very interesting about that show is they were talking about the purposelessness. Mm-hmm. of men. And I think where I want to go with this, hang with me here. I'm going back to you talking about this difference between success, like the definition of success and how somebody could have a career...

48:39 and be doing really well. But that in turn does not equate to that person feeling like they have purpose. And the purposelessness is the scary variable in why so many men are taking their own lives right now. Okay, so from your experience in this anger relationship, how is maybe that purposelessness showing up and contributing potentially to the men's lives that you're working with to address some of these anger behaviors? Yeah. So I, I dice up the way I work with, with men and nine steps across three phases. If somebody that agrees to working and embraces the process.

49:20 So the first phase is all about recognizing how to respond to anger. So that's your basic kind of, you know, how to keep things from getting worse, you know, based on the current anger relationship that you have. Second phase is the resilience phase. So this is kind of what you're talking about, Brandon. And Again, deep thinking around this, this is the narrative of our culture is life is meaningless. And the philosophy is nihilism. We came from nothing and our lives mean nothing. And then when we leave this planet, we go into nothing. If that's the narrative, then what's the point of me doing anything? Right. What's there? There is no point. And so we don't have a narrative that is filling in the blank, so to speak, about what we could be doing or should be doing on a day to day basis.

50:01 Not to say that the old narrative of the, you know, again, I'll speak to us, the American dream, you know, was was perfect. Right. But we definitely are in a scenario now where the narrative is you mean nothing. You came from nothing. You're going to go to nothing. Right. And so that's where that purposelessness comes from. So definitions of success is one of my exercises. I call it the yardstick. I talked about closing the gap. So you understand how to close the gap because you understand what your yardstick is. Right. And so it's exactly about figuring out what your purpose is based on your core values. So there's a there's a process there. You got to figure out who you are. I do that through core values. OK, so if you were living out your core values in a meaningful way every day, what would that look like?

50:42 That becomes the yardstick. Now, that might mean that you do a dramatic pivot in your life, but not always. With that clarity, you can start to then attach different meaning to the things that you are doing. The work that you are doing, the business that you do have, the people that you are leading. You can start showing up differently because you understand now how it fits with your yardstick, your definition of success. And then you know how to close that gap in a meaningful way. But that's all about filling that hole or that void brand that you talked about is purposelessness. Yeah. And so I take a big page out of John Eldridge's book here, Wild at Heart. He says that there's two existential questions that are always pulling at men and women.

51:25 For men, it's do I have what it takes? And so if you're succumbing to the idea that you have no purpose and life is purposelessness, then you're not answering that question, well, do I have what it takes? Because there's no point in it. And so, of course, I don't have what, you know, there's nothing that it requires to fulfill purposelessness. So you get stuck in this kind of this vicious cycle. For women, it's, am I worthy of being pursued? Do I have intrinsic value that somebody else on a regular, constant basis appreciates, guards, and protects? And so those are kind of the high-level existential questions that pull at men and women.

52:10 Yeah. Yeah. Still interesting. Well, and I think too, kind of going back to another comment you said is that the society has changed so much, like the conditions in which we're living have changed so much that women are less dependent on men for their fundamental existence. And I think there was a huge sense of purpose and provision that men just naturally embodied because women were so much more vulnerable to the environment, to other social things and all of that kind of stuff, being mothers and all that. So yeah, it's a really interesting problem. I guess one of the questions I had for you is, if somebody's listening to this podcast and it's they're realizing, okay, there's something here for me, particularly a business owner.

52:58 And they're maybe concerned that their anger in whatever form it takes is playing a role in their business and potentially holding them back. There's some opportunity costs that they're like, that outburst I had last week or this person that I tend to get into it with that frustrates me. I think I may be causing a problem for myself. So there's some awareness this forming. Is there a good way, perhaps even with spouses and children, what would you recommend they do or say to solicit feedback from the people around them in such a way that those people might be willing to share honestly about their experience with that person.

53:42 How would you coach somebody to go about doing that if they're interested in a greater level? Yeah, so I think the end goal there is if somebody is willing to take this into consideration, right, and do some self-evaluation about it, how do they get the feedback? And, you know, I think that it could be, I mean, this is what the purpose of the, you know, the age old suggestion box was all about, right? So we lost the key to it, though. So you put things in and nobody can access it. But I think, you know, one way is to be vulnerable, be bold, and make that declaration. You know, again, to a business owner or a team leader saying, I'm wondering to what extent that I'm the one that is, you know, responsible for whatever it is, right?

54:25 Whatever the perceived problem is, right? And I'm inviting you all, you know, as employees, as team members to give me some honest feedback, you know, with the understanding that I may not like it, but I'm not going to take it out on you. And depending on how your relationship has been with your team up until that point in time is going to determine what kind of honest feedback you get. And you might have to stay at this over a little bit of time of showing that you're being genuine here about being open to feedback. And it's virtually the same with your family, right? You could do the start, stop, keep kind of approach too. So you could talk to your spouse and you could say, what are some things that you want me to keep doing?

55:12 What are some things that I need to start doing? And what are some things that I need to stop doing? Right. And start, stop, keep is a great way to kind of elicit feedback. Same thing with kids, too. But there's a lot of ways to get the feedback. But I think the most important thing is you have to be prepared to be vulnerable and be genuine. And you have to be prepared for it to be shoved in your face at first, because, again, it's the pattern that you've established. This is something that I work with men. So men can make change. decision was made or once that thing kind of made sense or that what that conviction came like i'm no longer this person i'm now this person you know for me i remember i can feel it you know there was like a physical clunk sense you know it's like when you're when you're you're working on a car part and you're and also it goes in and it's like ah like it's it that's what i felt inside the problem is that nobody else can see it Yeah.

56:10 Yeah. Nobody else felt it. Nobody else can see it. Yeah. It was real to you. Right. So you go into, you know, the next thing, right. You go into the next exchange, whether at work at home and you're like, yeah, you know, I'm a different person, but they're expecting the old person. You have conditioned them to respond. And again, if it's anger is an issue for you, you've conditioned them to keep themselves safe around your, your anger edge that you carry with you. Right. So, and this is where men will get frustrated. Oh, I'm changing. They don't recognize it. Well, yeah, because you've been that way for 20 years. And then they get pissed off because people aren't recognizing their change. Yeah. Right. Like it's not worth it. Right. Yeah. And so helping men to understand is kind of giving them the peek around the corner around this is this is what you're up against when you go through those process.

56:55 So then when it happens, you can be like, yep. Remember, we talked about this. This is the pattern that you've established. And it takes time for a new pattern to be not only established, but trusted. Yeah, because again, during pattern, how many times this is the cycle? This is the anger, rage, shame cycle. Right. So you get triggered. You have anger behavior. You act out. It does damage. You say you'll never do it again. And then the shame sets in and then you do it all over again. Right. So how many times have you put yourself through that and told people on the way, I'll never do it again or I'm going to change. But here you are. Right. So even when you do establish a new pattern, it's going to take time for people to trust that. Yeah, I think that's a huge element.

57:37 It's funny because when you guys kind of talk through that section there, it is interesting that I think a lot of leaders do have something, some form of a catalyst that motivates them to begin to make some shifts or some change. And then they ultimately just feel like it was, like you said, it was put back in their face or nobody really cared. There was no grace given to me to change and I'm expected to give it to everybody else. And that's kind of like, yeah, fuck it. It's not worth it. I'm going back to just who I was because it's easier. Yeah. And so I think that there is some reality checks that all of us need that if we do find ourselves in a position where this is important enough to us to begin changing our behavior, to be really honest about what we're expecting to receive or to experience from those around us, when again, you've spent...

58:23 30 years, 20 years being this person and now you've changed it over three weeks. Like, okay. Like even if it takes you the rest of the year of rinsing and repeating and people are slow to come around, that's a year versus your 20. Right. Or the next 20, right? You know, or the next 20. That's right. Well, and I think that's where like you talking about defining that yardstick is really important, right? Because I think that was a fundamental change in me too, is that... I started to develop a picture of the kind of person that I wanted to be, you know? Right. So the why was for you. So the why was for me. And so I wasn't necessarily tapping my, well, and I was at first, without a doubt.

59:03 I was kind of tapping my foot, waiting for people to recognize this change in me and start treating me differently. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But over time, it just evolved into, okay, this is the kind of person I want to be. This is the kind of the way that I want others to experience me. And therefore, when I didn't, you know, when I lost my cool, lost my shit, right? It was in such stark contrast to who I wanted to be. Like, I naturally was like, oh, shit, I really, I really screwed up that situation. And then I was, I was motivated to make it right. Right. because I had started to see the contrast between how I normally had behaved in the past and what I was trying to be. And it just became more obvious.

59:45 Okay, I have one last, I think it's my last question. I'm curious, you know, as we kind of land the plane here, if you have any suggestions for men or women, just relative to anger, is there any kind of daily process? that you recommend to your clients in terms of, you know, like one of the things I like to do, you know, a few to several mornings a week is just sit in my sauna in the morning. And I'll typically listen to music, often music with no words. Are there affirmations or kind of questions of introspection or whatever that you recommend that men do on some kind of interval, maybe at the end of day, like some sort of reflection process, anything like that that you've seen be useful for your clients and maybe for yourself?

1:00:26 Yeah. It's one of the steps in that second phase. It's part of what I call the power routine. And it's the idea that, again, to close the gap, you got to learn how to win days, right? If you can't win days and you're not going to win weeks, you're not going to win months. And this is how quarters and years and decades go by. You're kind of where you started, right? So it's that idea of how do you win a day? And just like you're talking about, Chris, learning how to start your day intentionally, being focused and centered on your core values, and then thinking through the day that you're going to have, And looking for opportunities for you to act upon your core values is definitely part of the process. Now, to simplify it for people who are just listening here with something that they can do, it's gratitude.

1:01:09 Again, if you are having an issue, if you and your wife are on the rocks, take up a gratitude challenge and discipline. And what that looks like is in that morning time, you're going to, in your head or express out loud, however you want to do it, write it down. Three things that you can be grateful for for your wife. And don't take anything for granted. Close your day on that. And this goes back to that vision that you were talking about, Chris, right? So if you are constantly filling your heart, mind, and soul for reasons to be grateful for this other person, then that in and of itself will start shifting your energy towards that person, right? By default, we do just the opposite. Right. We automatically criticize the people in our lives, our spouses, our children, our coworkers.

1:01:54 Well, she was stupid. Why did she say that? Oh, she didn't do this. That comes natural. We do a thousand of those things all the time, every day, whether we're conscious about it or not. So when you talk about affirmations, sometimes I'll get some pushback around affirmations. It sounds hooey or woo-woo. The fact is everybody's already using affirmations. We're just using them against ourselves in a negative way. Right. Think about the last time you made a real big flub up unless you've been doing this kind of work. What did you say to yourself? Oh, I'm so stupid. There I do it again. This stuff never works out. Well, guess what? Those are affirmations. Yeah. They're the kind that are working against you, right? So gratitude is something that you can do. Start and stop your day with gratitude.

1:02:35 And if you have a specific need in your life, then express that gratitude to what that need is and do it for 90 days. Again, this is something like going to the gym, right? You can't go to the gym, work out hard on day one and expect to see amazing results day two, right? You just can't. It's the same thing for any of these things that you're doing. In the mental gym, so to speak, it's a compound effect. It's the hockey stick, right? It seems like it's not going anywhere. It's not doing anything until it does. And then it looks amazing, right? So same kind of commitment and process that's there. When you do affirmations, I have men based upon core values. So figure out your core values and then create affirmations based on your core values. Okay, that is great.

1:03:17 And that's a pretty great place to start slowing down and closing up. But I got one more. You know, to a certain extent, if we just kind of look over the conversation, I think we've had some time to just kind of recognize where this shows up, what it looks like, some different examples of how it's acted out on. I think we've talked through some ideas that we can be implementing. And I think just being aware of the way that you're describing this recognition in this process is super powerful. But why? Why would I give a crap about any of this? Can you just share a couple examples of where someone can very concretely express to you the value of the work that they've put in to make this adjustment in this transition?

1:04:04 And again, setting the stage of... We're not talking about people that sucked at business and tomorrow they're rad because they got in control of their emotion. But there is substantial gains from giving a rip about this. What are just a couple examples? Yeah, any case studies that come to mind? Oh, yeah. I mean, I can pull them from my clients. But what I'll say is that it's usually nine times out of ten, it's a repaired relationship in their life. Sometimes that's the relationship with yourself. So there can be a high degree of self-loathing that still exists in a person, even though they do a good job of masking it. Part of what's driving them to be successful, again, if it isn't aligned with their core values, if they can't clearly articulate the why, it's usually coming out of a negative place.

1:04:47 They're trying to compensate for something or they're trying to prove someone or something wrong. And so that's the driver. For men, oftentimes they're trying to get approval from a dad that never gave approval or a dad that was never available for approval. So it's learning how to free yourself from that. Again, nothing wrong with that necessarily, but if that's your unconscious driver, you'll never satisfy that. It'll never be good enough around those things. And what we're peeking into is the crux of the final phase, which is forgiveness. If you have an enduring problem with destructive anger, it usually points to a need for forgiveness in your life. It's forgiveness for yourself and forgiveness for others.

1:05:28 That's really what... I would say makes my approach to this work categorically different than other approaches, even alongside the other differences that I've highlighted throughout our conversation here. It's that need for forgiveness. It was true in my life, for sure. So it's relational restoration at the end of the day. Absolutely. The universal outcome you are likely to experience. Because the driven man that's driven materialistically, he gets caught in this belief that when I achieve the next thing, oh, this person then will finally XYZ. Oh, it didn't happen. Okay, when I do this next thing, well, this person will finally do XYZ and it didn't happen, right?

1:06:09 Oh, and I, you know, and so then, so either you keep on that treadmill or you basically you say, you become what Hans Johnson mentor, another mentor of mine, you become the rich, miserable bastard. Yeah. The RMB. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. One of the things that I remember when we were preparing for a talk that we gave a couple years ago now was just this in this moment I had where I was recognizing like all of this kind of boils down to that final breath. And are you going to be surrounded by boats and cars and bank account? Or are you going to be surrounded by relationships? And I think the petition, you know, and at least for sure, this is from my heart is, look, I understand anger.

1:06:55 I've yielded it well. It's created lots of results for me, whether it be in military careers, whether it be in the civilian world. I've, yeah, I think you just gave a great example of I've leveraged that chip on my shoulder to win because I was constantly trying to outplay the person's perspective on me or judgment of what I'm capable or not capable of doing. I've often lived out the thought that I feel like the underdog, regardless of how true that is. And... in the midst of doing many of those things well, I was also suffering from a broken relationship with my kids. I was suffering from a relationship with my wife that wasn't elite. It wasn't something I looked at and said, I was crushing it even while I was growing companies and I could add commas to our top line revenue and be praised honestly at times by my workforce.

1:07:48 And so I think just kind of to piggyback on what you said so well, man, the petition here is like, look, men or women, even if you're winning. There's some awesome relational restoration opportunities that are open to you if you're willing to look at this thing in the face and do something with it. And at minimum, just be open to the fact that you may just be far more angry in behavior than you think. And that there's an opportunity to just get in front of it. Like even if it's not a catalyst yet, you're not at the bottom, you're not in the red zone, just stop and take inventory. There could be something better and it's probably worth your time. One of the weirdest things about humans, and it's probably always been that way, is that the comeback story is what makes the box office smash, right?

1:08:34 It's the comeback story. What we don't celebrate is when bad things don't go wrong in the first place because of somebody's diligence. Yeah. We don't celebrate that very, very well. Right. We don't celebrate. You know, Tim makes it to age 95 and never had diabetes, was never, you know, overweight because, you know, because he walked five miles every day. Awesome. Way to go, Tim. Right. But if Tim weighed 300 pounds and got back down to 180, you know, he'd be on a TV show. He'd be on podcast. He'd be on a reality show. People would want to know how he did it. Right. And so it's kind of a weird thing about the way we are as humans is that we don't learn to celebrate when bad things don't happen. Oh man, that's a great freaking reminder.

1:09:14 Oh God. All right, my friend. Well, Dr. Sotelo, we really appreciate your insight and your perspective. Obviously, this is a globally impacting thing that's more relevant probably for more of us than we... we even realized. So thanks for your time to, to get into the nuts and bolts on anger, my friend, we appreciate you. If somebody listening wants to reach out to you directly and maybe look into getting some coaching or support from you, where should they go? What's the best way to connect with you? Yeah, you can find me on socials, but probably go over to the website for this, which is www.stopangertoday.com. Stopangertoday.com. And really what you need to do is hit the button that says book a call.

1:09:55 I'll give you 30 minutes of my time, and that's an anger blueprint call. And the guarantee there is you'll walk away knowing exactly what the next steps are for you to conquer anger. That's awesome. And I, and I follow you on Facebook and you're regularly posting different little nuggets of wisdom and tips and that kind of stuff with regard to anger. And so, uh, yeah, we're following. Yeah, we're following. Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate it. Absolutely. And to be honest, you know, pretty much everything I have to offer is can be found on my YouTube channel as well. So that's the information that's there. You can sink into it and it's, it's, it's all up there. We'll make sure that both of those are included in show notes. So for those of you a few weeks out, you're listening to the show from the cab of your truck.

1:10:35 When you stop at the next job site, just pull up the show notes and you'll be able to see how you can connect with Dr. Nick and maybe take some action into doing something a little bit different than you did last year and see what happens in relation in your sphere as well. All right, brother. Thanks a lot for your time, man. Likewise. Appreciate the opportunity. All right, everybody. Heath, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart, and Boots. And if you're enjoying the show, but you love this episode, please hit follow, formerly known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.