Ep 20 - Michelle Blevins Talks C&R Magazine

0:02 Welcome back to another episode of the MRM Podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brandon. Join us as we discuss business, life, and legacy. It's business time. Dude, do I have to start the show by saying, How are you doing today? Oh, man. Dude, we have a cool guest today, my friend. A cool guest. I think I'm excited about this one. Because actually, I think we say that every show, but we legitimately like our guests. But I'm excited about this one because it's such an overview perspective of our industry. Meaning this is that true person that has access to all the players from this very neutral and supportive perspective.

0:46 And I think it's really fun to hear their story and get their vision of what's going on in our industry. I think it's enlightening. So we'll have Michelle Blevins on today. She is the current owner of CNR Magazine, which is super exciting. And she's going to dive into that a little bit. But 2008, she jumped into this journalism broadcasting world, carried that through. In 2015, she came on as the editor in chief at R&R Magazine. And that's where a lot of us have gotten exposure to her and what she does. And the support that she brings to our industry, that's obviously when we met her was back in the R&R days. But now, again, she took over, she purchased and is now leading the CNR brand.

1:29 And man, she's already making changes, already moving things, already having quite an impact. And of course, she's just continuing to nurture those relationships she's developed over the years. Yeah. And she and I were coming into the industry around the same time. She came in just shortly after I was coming into the industry as well. And it was... Honestly, I was pretty impressed with how quickly she got her hands in the industry. And I've been following her ever since and reading the articles. And I think she was part of my education in restoration, to be honest. Another thing I'm excited about with this conversation is she has some legit experience in recruiting. Yeah. She's done some headhunting, not some, like several years of experience in that.

2:13 And combined with her journalism background, I don't know. I just think it's going to be a really interesting conversation. And regardless of who you are listening to this, whether you're an owner or you're even outside the restoration industry, I think there's going to be some nuggets that you can pull from our chat with her. 100%. Yeah. So we'll see. Yep. Let's get it going. Well, Michelle, hey, we are excited to have you. So thank you so much for taking the time to join us. And we're looking forward to the conversation that we're going to dive into for sure. Thank you very much for having me. It's nice to reconnect with you guys. I know we met years ago now in the industry. So it's nice to reconnect and roll on new journeys. And I love it. I'm actually looking forward to doing a live event. We kind of chatted about that a little bit before, but maybe in the beginning of next year, maybe we'll meet up at an event and do something live and see if we can have some fun.

2:59 I think that would be cool. That would be fun. Yeah. That would be really awesome. I'm all about... I think 2022 is going to have so many events and lots of places to go now that everything's kind of opening back up and getting going again. Yeah, let's keep our fingers crossed it stays that way. I guess I'll do a show and a mask. I mean, we'll figure it out. Yep. Yep. Make it work. Where do we want to go first, man? I know my head's been spinning with where to take this. I know you have too. So... Well, you know... I always love origin stories because it helps set the frame for where people come from and people's perspective and whatnot. I haven't heard your origin story of coming to now owning an industry publication. And if I recall correctly, you have a background in journalism and somewhat of an eclectic path to end up doing a journalism publishing function in the restoration industry.

3:52 Can you kind of give us your version of that story? Sure. So I grew up wanting to be a writer. I imagined it more like Nancy Drew novel type writer. I don't think I really knew what I was going for here. When I went to college, I was a little worried that I wouldn't be able to have a career as a writer or make money as a writer. You hear all those broke living in New York City, eating ramen stories. And I was like, yeah, maybe this isn't a good career path for me. So I went in to Michigan State with an international business plan and I was going to minor in Japanese. So I I don't know what I was thinking. And I got to my first economics class for a semester and was like, and peace. This is not for me. I had the same reaction.

4:34 You know, journalists are notoriously bad with math and it was, I didn't get it. So I marched right over to my advisor's office and I changed my major to journalism right then and there and moved on with my life. I went to a few different colleges in four years to get my degree, trying to pay for things and work full time and not have too much debt in that whole train that everybody rides, right? Got my degree, worked for the... College newspaper, I went to Central Michigan and their newspaper is actually one of the top student newspapers in the nation. They win a lot of awards and stuff like that. So I had the opportunity to be a senior editor there and do some other things. That was a really good experience. Worked for... Did some internships with some local newspapers as well to get experience.

5:15 First job out of college was at a little small town Indiana newspaper. Still at the court news where I'm working, looking through the big court documents, seeing who got divorced this week and who got arrested. And, you know, it's all like handwritten in there. Right. Got to make friends with sheriffs and county commissioners and, you know, the Chamber of Commerce people and business owners. And that was really where I learned that journalism has nothing to do with anything that I learned in college at all. It's all relationships. So I learned through that experience and that job that relationships are everything. And I loved that job. I loved how much I got to be involved in the community. I loved walking in anywhere and knowing who I was seeing because it was a small town and being able to strike up a conversation and knowing about children and their work and personal lives and...

6:04 I loved all of it. So my husband and I ended up moving to Northern Michigan. He got a job as a video journalist at a TV station in Northern Michigan. The newspaper there didn't have any openings. So I was hired on a whim by the station director to be an intern. and see if I could write. So he hired me within a few weeks to be a full-time producer. And over the six years I was there, I worked my way up to the executive producer of the entire station. But I hated it. I hated it. I hated it. I don't like TV in the first place. There can be some personality issues in the first place and character issues. People that like to be in front and popular and whatever. But I also... It was almost like...

6:45 my soul was dying working behind the scenes. I was behind a computer all day. I didn't get to talk to the community. I didn't get to be involved with anybody. And that was really difficult. I missed that so much and was so envious of the other people that were out in the field getting to build those relationships and tell the stories and all that. And I'm just sitting there... editing. So I applied for the R&R job, my previous job on a whim. I had promised my husband that he could get a job first when we moved to Metro Detroit. But I saw that one and was like, I don't know. I'm just going to float a resume at this one. And I got hired and the rest is history, I guess. Holy cow. So okay. So my mind is firing when you talked about your experience with the community and building relationships.

7:29 So don't let me forget. I want to circle back around on that. So what made you think of this R&R piece though? You're just saying because it was an opening, it was back more on this journalism side. That's what got you into this industry for the first time? Yes. I didn't really know what the industry was. I saw enough keywords in the job description like fire damage and water damage and those kinds of things. And being on the journalism side, I had been to big floods and I had been to big fires and I knew about the tragedies and things like that. But I never knew what happened after the news crews go away. I never knew what happened to a home after it burned down.

8:10 I never knew after an entire community flooded what happened. I actually did a story when I was at the newspaper in Indiana about a house that was in a flood zone getting raised up and a restoration company working on it. But it didn't occur to me at the time that that's what it was. So I felt like through journalism, I understood the customer side of things and the I don't want to call the victim side of things, I guess. I know people don't really like that term. And so then being on the contractor side and still being in this, I could tell that it was an industry that was going to really care about people and serve people. And so I thought that that would be a good niche. BNP, which owns R&R, has 50 B2B publications. And they're in industries like flooring and candy.

8:51 And they used to have a casino magazine and packaging and all those things. And I can fully say that none of the other brands ever... were remotely interesting to me. But R&R was like... I don't know. I got in and it was my baby and I loved the industry from day one. So that's cool. So it sounds like you were intentionally leaving that executive producer environment in the TV and just open to exploring something new. Sometimes we leave one thing because we really want this other thing and it was the opposite for you. But you ended up discovering something that like, whoa, okay. Yes, that's exactly what happened. Yeah, I told my husband at the time because we had just started a family. We had a one-year-old when we were getting ready to move.

9:32 And I was like, I'll just follow behind you and get a job wherever. I am very driven, very career-oriented. That's probably obvious to people who know me that I'm driven. But I felt like it was his turn to get the job that he wanted and follow his dreams. And I could take a few years, be mom, whatever, and... So I don't know. I did wait a year before applying for any jobs while he was still looking. But I don't know. I saw the R&R job and was like, oh, I'm just going to float it. And here we are. That's so wild. Because I got the job. And then just a few weeks later, my husband ended up getting his dream job at a TV station in Detroit. So it was like God's timing with it. We sold our house up north and moved in with my in-laws just for a couple of months during the transition.

10:14 He got his dream job. I got the job at R&R and off we went. It worked out. That's wild. That's wild. One of the things that you had said earlier, you were talking about the whole relationship component and just being drawn to the developing a relationship. You said this recently too, is just the developing the relationship with the contractor. And I got to tell you, and it's probably hard for me to give details on why I made this connection. But even years ago, when we were first just crossing paths, and I was watching and starting to interact with R&R as I was growing in my career in the industry, I felt like I could see that. We had some interactions, exchanged some emails.

10:54 It was always very kind. It was always very open communication. it didn't feel like other B2B type experiences that I had had with media platforms, whether it be in this industry or other adventures that we were going after. It was always transactional, always super cold. We got a couple seconds. So let's get this conversation out of the way. And at what point do you start giving me money in exchange for some kind of service or whatever? That's never been the case with you from my limited experience. Can you touch on that a little bit and talk to us about that? Yeah, I really care about people. That really sounds so cliche. And people try to say that, but I really do. And I really care about the relationships.

11:35 And I believe what a lot of career motivational people say, that if you follow your dreams and you follow your ethics and your boundaries and your lines and stuff like that, that the money and everything else follows. So I felt like I have followed... like my God-given path and my gifts that He's given me. And I feel like if I do that in the way that works for me, that everything else falls into place. And it's proven that really, actually, if you follow your passions and your dreams and make those relationships and do what matters to you, that you can actually be way more successful in your career doing that than staying in a nine to five or whatever that is with a career. So... I feel like relationships are the root of everything.

12:17 I have loved the relationships I've made in this industry. And I feel like I'm the type that can pretty much get along with anybody. And I do try to be very gracious and let everybody else speak and be a good listener, not a good talker. It's been interesting for me going on some of these podcasts. I'm not used to being the one who's talking. And so I've had to learn to come out of my shell as I go through these because I've had people remark like, you don't talk very much. And it's like, well, I'm not supposed to. I'm supposed to listen. But anyway, yeah. So how does that tie in to what's happening now with CNR? So obviously, there was a transition that happened. Maybe for some of us, we're not 100% on that timeline.

12:57 So if you want to give us the details on that. And then just how is that relational focus remained as you're transitioning and taking on what's happening with CNR? I officially took over, bought the magazine in July of this year, mid-July. So it was only about 45 days from the day I took over to getting the first print issue out and being at the Experience and everything. That was exciting. We did it. Relationships have been everything. That's why I've been able to do this. I feel like I've done legwork. But without the people that have supported me, this would not have happened. Whether it's supporting me by... physically actually doing something to make this happen or just being support behind the scenes. Like call me with a question, mentoring me through this, talking me through like, what kind of like an S corp and what that means and how I should set that up.

13:45 And people with web backgrounds and helping me build the websites. Advertisers have been extremely supportive and... I've been fortunate enough to be able to go to people that I already have relationships with and they trust me. And I'm so thankful for that. I know that I still have a lot to prove. And I'm hoping that these first few issues are going to really prove I'm here for this. And I'm hoping to really do it right and do everybody justice and do the industry justice in it. The relationships are what has made this happen. I could not have done this without having so many people behind me, both in the industry and outside of the industry. I have an amazing personal friend group. I have... People say that you're a culmination of the 5 people you spend the most time with.

14:26 And so I try to be so careful of who my 5 are because I do think that that's really true. And I'm blessed with an amazing circle in my personal life. And then I have some amazing friends in the industry as well. So I have felt like no matter where I'm at, I have people that I can go to turn to, get help, people supporting me, people coming out of the woodwork to help. It's like, wow, thank you. It's all relationships. Yeah, it's such a cool story to hear that. Are you... And I don't know if you want to go here. So I'm going to set the stage a little bit and see what your comfort level is. But so there's a couple things that I'm recognizing about this is that there's someone in our industry that is taking on the role as an entrepreneur.

15:13 Like you yourself are developing your own business. And so your connection to that and what many of us are doing as we're starting or leading or building restoration businesses is that we're talking to someone that not only is helping us with some exposure, with education, creating information and giving us access to information... But we're also getting that and developing that relationship with somebody that understands what it's like to be building a business. It's not just transactional. It's not just some big organization that there's lots of layers of separation between us and decision makers. So that's awesome for me. I love that.

15:53 But you got to make money. You're a business, right? So what does that look like? What is that line between, I got to sell ad space, I've got to do this and build my business. But at the same time, you are a true supporter of our industry and you're clearly focused on the relationship. How do you do that? How do you walk that line? What should we expect as we're interacting with you in this medium? I think every vendor or company or potential advertiser I'm talking to is looking for something different. So that makes part of the difference. Some people are legitimately just looking to advertise and they need to get their name out there. They want to generate leads or whatever that may be. So there are some people that have come to me that are like, we're so glad to print magazine is back.

16:35 We really missed the brand recognition that we got in that. How can we get involved? And hey, what can we do in the digital space? We got to get our name out there. And this is a platform that people are watching. So what can we do? So there are people that have just come to me with a budget and been like, hey, can you put together a proposal? I sure can. And I try to tweak those based on what I hear from them and what they need. I'm not ever going to just say here Sunbelt. I know that you have a lot of money and you advertise everywhere. You should just get full page ads. I'm not going to do that. I want to help people reach their goals, whatever that is. And then there are other people that want to build thought leadership. And people tend to be pretty open to that conversation of, hey, if you can write something educational, I am here for it. Just know that I don't do pay to play.

17:17 Just know that I will publish something from you, whether or not you spend a dime with me or not. And if there are other ways that you want to get exposure, other ways you want to get that article out... then we can talk about things that might have money attached. And it's just organically happened that then people figure out how to marry together. I think people understand marrying together that educational and thought leadership piece with the ad spend piece and finding the middle. And so far, it's been great. And even back in the R&R days, because of the relationships I have with a lot of the vendors in the industry... If they send me articles, they're almost always open to my input and tweaking things.

17:58 So if I come back to them and I'm like, This is too much of an ad. We really need to tweak this. Can we work on this? They're always open to that. And I have coached people through how to do that. I'm happy to do that. It's doing the industry and them a service if we can make it be an educational article and then figure out other ways to promote your business. People are going to get the point when they see your name and your business and your bio, they're going to get the point where you're from and what's happening here. So there are other ways to connect the dots between how you're educating the industry and then your advertising. That's always been a question in my mind when it comes to publishing an industry journal like this. And I think you have stood out to both Brandon and I back when you were at R&R and now just the work that you do because there's a tension between selling ads and journalism.

18:42 And my experience, I used to be in the insurance business before getting into restoration. And of course, the insurance business is a huge industry as well. And there's all these different industry publications. And by and large, there was a handful of exceptions, but by and large, It's just peppered with advertorials and pure advertising and everything else. And I think the reason for that is there's been this trend with the internet and social media of publications becoming a business that people will get into that don't have any journalism background, any publishing background. It's like a turnkey. There's these neighborhood publications that have come up and everything else. And so... business people like Brandon and I have been like, oh, well, let's get into publishing.

19:25 But they don't have that journalism piece. And so the quality of what you pick up one of these things and you're like, it's very Mickey Mouse. A lot of the content is just very unmoving. It's not something you would pick up in order to learn something. And I think that's what we've noticed with you is there's been some really good... I mean, even just as of recently, looking at your site, there's been some really great articles and material. But is that... I would think that that is a tricky transition. I have friends who are journalists and they run the gamut, but a lot of them are just very fiercely... I don't care about ads. I don't care about the money. They're just so pure. They're just so puritanical about...

20:05 the journalism side, is that sometimes a tough tension for you to hold between just reporting on a topic without being concerned about what some advertisers are going to think? I mean, right now, you're dealing with some... There's some hot stuff happening in our industry. There is some big moving and shaking occurring. I've admired your willingness to step in and you've been leading conversations lately. you've been facilitating and making some conversations happen that... I just wonder what that's like for you. Does that feel like tension at times? It totally does. Yes. And you know what I've realized though, when it comes to journalism and B2B magazines, the readers have to be there first.

20:45 If I don't have readers, I don't have advertisers and I don't have a magazine. So I have to cater to my readers first. That is who my... devotion, I guess, is to first, I need to make sure that the content in the magazine is sound and educational. And then the advertisers want to be there. If the magazine and publication is trusted in the industry, it is the go-to resource for restorers, then that's where the advertisers want to be. They know that people are paying attention. They're picking up CNR, they're reading it, they're going to the website, they're clicking on things. One follows the other. So I believe if I can keep walking those ethical... lines, then all will be okay. I know I'm going to make mistakes. That's for sure. And this is... These are difficult waters to navigate.

21:26 And sometimes I don't understand topics enough to read through an article and catch when there's a product push or something. I usually can. But once in a while, they do sneak by me and it's like, well, okay. So I'm working on establishing just an editorial advisory committee, not something that's going to... These people aren't going to go through every single article. They're not going to... really edit things or anything. But if I get something that's a little above my head or too technical for me, people that will look it through, read it through and say, this part needs a little tweaking or whatever. This part's a little off, whatever. Or yeah, this is good. Go for it. So I'm just working on putting together a small group of people that I trust in the industry that can help me vet the content that for me is more on the line and I think it'll work out.

22:14 I was talking to Patty Harmon, who was the editor in chief of CNR for 18 years. I talked to her yesterday. And she considers herself a dinosaur. I asked her the same question. And she's like, I'm a dinosaur. I have this hard line between editorial and advertising. And it was great for me to hear somebody else say that because that's the line that I want to walk. And it's refreshing to know that there are other editors out there because Like my mentor who helped me into this process, he has a number of magazines, but his are almost straight ads. His articles are ads. I'm not trying to do that. I think that's interesting too, because there's probably a running misconception why...

22:55 I'm not going to use names, but why publications at times can be... We order them because it's what you do. And then it's funny, they end up sitting at the reception desk or sitting next to the two chairs that often we have at that little entry into our office. Yeah. but they're not necessarily being seen and used as a tool to help us. And I fell into that category for a long time. And then I started to actually interact with some of the publications that you've been a part of, especially now with... with CNR. And the reality of it is that there's really smart, experienced people contributing content. And it's content that we can all take advantage of.

23:37 So again, I'm not trying to do a cheesy plug here. But there is a reality that we can easily fall into these patterns of we make assumptions because we don't really look at it ourselves. And then we don't make a decision based on our experience. We just make decisions based on what we assume. And I was doing that for a long time with the publications that are relevant to our industry. And I would say with CNR specifically, I did that at the beginning too. Then you and I started to have more conversations. I'm getting to see more about what's happening. And it's like, there's good stuff there. Mm-hmm. Is there anything that you want to say to that? Again, I'm not trying to set the stage for a cheese plug here. Are we making some poor assumptions about the kind of content that we actually could be having access to for our teams in terms of how we could better use that?

24:25 I launched CNR with... Or relaunched it, I guess. Calling it is the legacy publication in the industry. So one of the reasons that I was so interested in buying it was because of the amazing content that goes back like 50 years. And talking to Patty Harmon, she said at one point, they had a... We don't know where it is, which is a little unfortunate. We're trying to find it. But a server somewhere with 14,000 articles on it. from past in our issues, thought leaders in the industry. And so there is a place for all of those old thought leaders, but it's also time for the next generations to move in. Right. It's time for millennials, Gen Z, whatever. They're we're coming up here and it's there are leadership changes happening, generational leadership changes happening within restoration companies across the country.

25:10 It's part of the reason behind the big M&A landscape right now. Baby boomers are phasing out of their businesses. They're late 60s, early 70s, it's time to retire. And that's part of the reason, part of the reason we're seeing some of this M&A shift. So I believe the same with CNR. And so I came into CNR with the plan to bring in fresh voices, people who I have met in my pathway. in the restoration industry who I have trusted and feel like they have good voices, they have good information to share, they're forward thinking, they are authentic. I think that's big. And they're just going to call it like it is and truly actually put their time and energy into it.

25:52 I ran into... This didn't happen very often, but some people who get used to contributing often also just assume that they always can. And then the quality of work goes down and... There are certainly people that deserve to still have a platform and thought leaders in the industry. But I have a number of new columnists, you two included, that are going to be fantastic. I'm really excited about talking about different topics, whether it's leadership or company culture or HR questions, or you guys are going to talk about leadership and being authentic leaders. And you can talk about the mitigation and restoration side. You guys can talk about everything. Yeah. I have a veteran who runs a franchise.

26:33 He's one of the new columnists. His name is Scott. And he is open about everything. He talks about TPAs. He talks about pricing. He talks about how he feels about everything. And he's authentic about it. And he knows the industry. He's well-trained. He's been through the trenches. He gets it. And then I am also bringing up an adjuster who's going to do a Dear David column. And so restorers can send him their questions on working with adjusters, which could get a little meaty. But I'm excited about that. I want CNR to have those more edgy conversations. And if people are unhappy or there's dirt to be uncovered or whatever, okay, let's talk about it. Let's get these conversations going.

27:14 That's... What I've tried to do with the core logic and next year stuff is get those conversations going. Restores, what do you want to know? Thanks to the relationships I have, I can hopefully get some of your questions answered. If you don't have a place to go to get them answered, I am here to try. I feel like that is my job to be that... intermediary between the Restore and these other people. So that's why I've done a lot of these interviews to try to get questions answered. And I'm still gathering questions from the Restore to ask more questions, hopefully to Garrett in the next few days, weeks, whatever that may be, and continue to explore what this acquisition could mean for the industry. All right, let's take a minute to recognize and thank our MitResto Mastery sponsor, Accelerate Restoration Software.

28:03 And I'm fully aware, by the way, that when I say those last two words, restoration software, that that instantly creates heartburn for some of you out there, right? Because we probably all fall into one of two camps when it comes to software. We've either cobbled together kind of a version of free website tools and spreadsheets just to make our business work. Or we're in the camp where we've adopted one of these existing restoration platforms, you know, one that has all the bells and whistles and supposedly does it all. But we can't get our team to consistently adopt it and input information to it. Yeah, and that's really where Accelerate has honed their focus. They've created a system that's simple, right?

28:45 It's intuitive, and it focuses on the most mission-critical information, i.e., guys, your team will actually use it. Let's talk about sales, right? After years of leading sales and marketing teams, the biggest trick is getting them to consistently update notes about their interactions with referral partners and clients. And the essential piece there is there's got to be a mobile app experience. And in our experience... the solutions that were previously out there were just too cumbersome and tricky to use. Yeah. Imagine guys, how your business would change if your entire team was actually consistently using the system. Do yourself a favor, go check these guys out at xlrestorationsoftware.com forward slash MRM and check out the special offers they're providing to MRM listeners.

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30:57 And those commonly missed items can make all the difference in the world. So go check them out at value.getinsights.org backslash FCG. I'm going to make an assumption here and you can correct my thinking. So part of me says, okay, if us as participants or viewers, right, those us consuming the content that comes from the publications, the digital media that you present, if more of us are taking that in, watching, instead of making assumptions, contributing... then doesn't that leave you more room to provide more rich content versus just the marketing?

31:39 If we're engaging and we're actually consuming that content, it gives you the freedom, doesn't it, to a bit to say, You know what? I can say no to that ad piece. Or I can say no to that so that we can give you more education and more usable content. Is that fair? It's totally fair. And when I will admit that when I first took over CNR, I didn't know what the content scene was going to look like at first. And so I was kind of like, I'll take it. Right. But now I have actually this backlog because there's been really good stuff I've gotten. And so I've been getting more and more picky about what I am sharing. And I am so aware of people who are watching me and CNR very closely. to wait and see when I'm going to put up something wrong or let an ad slip in or whatever.

32:23 And so I'm trying to be really, really, really careful. I was before, but it's different when it's your own baby, right? One of the curious questions I had is, you've been in the industry, what, six, seven years? Yeah. Roughly? Yeah. So compared to some of the people that have been in it generationally and so forth, you're a relative newcomer, as are we, compared to some of the other folks in the industry. And I always love to ask employees too. Employees that are in that first three to six months during the reviews, hey, what are you noticing? Yeah. What do you think? Because it's like we get old eyes on the business to where it's just we're so accustomed. Everything is so normalized after a period of time.

33:05 And I'd be curious just to hear you articulate what's changed in those six, seven years. What have you observed? What have the major shifts been? Leading up to, of course, now with the CoreLogic piece and all the M&A and PE activity that's happening. I'm curious what you make of all that. What's your perspective on how the industry has actually changed in a material way over that time? Gosh, that's a good question. Well, I think that there's definitely been a bigger focus on culture, which is something that the industry needs to keep working on if we're going to keep attracting more workers, right? Like millennials and Gen Z, they're really not interested in going into crawl spaces and attics and working in all kinds of weather when they can go get a job making the same amount of money inside working 9 to 5 and not on call, right?

33:51 So I think restorers are doing a good job now of paying more attention to company culture. When I came into the industry, generation stuff was a huge topic and talking about millennials and the problems with millennials, right? That conversation went away probably within the first year or two I was in the industry. But now I feel like the generational conversation is coming back because there's so much generational leadership changes happening, right? Right. And it directly relates to the hiring problems that the industry has, which that problem has remained pretty consistent across the time that I've been in the industry. But I would say it's probably at its worst now. Right. And part of it has to do with we have to do better at attracting these younger generations.

34:31 If we can't convince Gen Z to come into the restoration industry, we're going to be in big trouble. We're already in trouble. We're going to be in big trouble. I don't necessarily have all the answers of what that looks like. I know that there are some companies thinking outside the box, which is wise to get engagement. But okay, so generations, that's something that's changed. I think that there's more collaboration in the industry now than there used to be. I think that we're kind of transitioning in that way where people are realizing that you need to work together and share your knowledge and stuff like that. Kind of like what you guys are going to do with your cohorts. your cohort idea. And hopefully I'm not like revealing anything you don't want revealed yet. But anyway, with your cohort idea. So, you know, you're not going to bring together people that are in the same market necessarily, but you're going to generate relationships between restorers who maybe have things in common and they can share relationships.

35:19 the goods and the bads and what are you doing and how are you overcoming this? And there needs to be that level of collaboration. If these family owned companies are going to stay viable in this marketplace where the first onsites and the ATIs and the BMS cats and all of the private equity, all of that, all the companies around them are getting bought up. You have to collaborate with people around you to stay viable and learn from other people. You can't get yourself into a hole and think that you're going to win, I don't think. So I've even seen more vendors collaborating as well. There's more integration happening between some people, not others, but more of the software pieces and equipment pieces working together like Bluetooth technology integrating with other...

36:02 So there's been more of that. And even I've mentioned this a few times before, but like at the experience, there was a booth. There were some vendors that shared a big booth that sold different things related to cleaning or disinfecting or remediation. And they shared a booth and showed how their products can work properly. cohesively together. They weren't competing against each other. It was teaching restorers the techniques. And here's the different options of what you could do in these situations. So I thought that that was really wise. And doesn't that make the contractor trust you more if you're showing collaboration instead of competition? 100%. Yeah. And what we're seeing too is it gives small upstart companies more of a platform.

36:45 I mean, it's a way to establish instant cred by aligning yourself with other... It allows you, I think, to be more marketable to the big companies than if you were just some standalone trying to hustle your new product to market. Partners are always help establish credibility that way. Yep. Question, because I know you are so rooted and anchored in this relationship piece. Who should we be following? And I'm saying that like our whole audience. And maybe who are some of the not as obvious emerging thought leaders and people you're seeing that are really having an impact on the industry or moving a certain segment of the industry that...

37:26 All of us can be following. I know Brandon and I are always looking out for who are the thought leaders that are engaging in the difficult conversations or in the emerging, whether it's technology or business practices. Throw us out some of these names that you're seeing that maybe aren't in the headlines, but are really making moves in the industry. You know, it's interesting. I'm seeing a lot of people in the software space taking on that role. So Rachel Stewart being one, she has her podcast, and she's really trying to get out there and have tough conversations. And She's willing to have tough conversations. She and I had a bit of a rocky start. And so I was thrilled that she brought me on. That sounds like a story. It was... I mean, whatever.

38:06 But anyway. Oh, we'll ask her all about it. Great. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But I think Alex Dutta, who's behind another software company, he is also pretty forward thinking and working on establishing himself as a thought leader. Yeah. I think on the culture side of things, I think the person who's leading culture at First Onsite, her name is Jenny VandeHe. I think she's one of the most forward-thinking people I've ever met in this industry. She doesn't come from this industry and she's new to this industry. But she's somebody that I think has great ideas and is trying to foster a very healthy culture in a very big, company and really help establish the why behind First Onsite and what they're doing.

38:52 And that's a big task. I have really good relationships with a lot of women in the industry. I think Katie Smith, who is going to be the upcoming... She's the incoming president of the RIA... she's a great businesswoman and really knows her stuff. And she challenges me daily. Like if I could be Katie when I grew up, that would be great. She's not afraid to have tough conversations. And she draws a hard line in the sand of how she wants her company to be, how things are going to get run, how she wants her brand to look to her community, how she's going to be involved in her community. And, but she also is a mom and involved in her alumni association and all of those different things. So I think she's definitely... somebody to watch.

39:33 Yeah. Sorry. You talk about industry changes in the last 7 years. I mean, that's something Brandon and I've seen over and over again is there are some really powerful women moving into leadership roles in the industry. And Brandon and I have been really fortunate. We've worked with a number of... female leaders in the companies that we've built and led. And I think the reality that most people are starting to realize is it's so vital. It's so vital to have women in these high levels of leadership. It changes the conversation in a really productive way. Where else are you seeing moves like that? I mean, I'm just curious what other women leaders you're seeing emerging here in the industry as well.

40:15 Gosh, well, one person that I've looked up to, who's the person behind the HR column, it's Marcy Richardson is her name. And she's the Director of Human Resources for Guarantee Restoration in Louisiana. I think she's pretty great. I would say that there's a number of women in this photo alone that I keep at my desk that I really look up to. So Jacqueline Carpenter, who owns a business in California. And then there's Christy Cohen, who's the CEO of RIA. And I think that she's done a lot of really great things. And Kelly Dolan, who's the Chief of Staff And then Katie Smith, who I was just talking about, is also in this picture. And so women are doing good things. Nicole Humber is somebody who immediately comes to mind. I don't know if you know who that is, but she owns a company in California as well.

40:57 She won the ladder award the first year that I started it under R&R. And I met her when I first came into the industry. And she is somebody who has had such a journey in this industry and really taken a beating and fought through it and not given up and... taken the lashes and tried to get help and not been afraid to ask for help. So I think that there's this amazing community of women that's kind of coming out of, I don't know, the Women in Restoration Award events, you know, just getting together, having more conversations, maybe part of its social media. I don't know. But there are a lot of really great women in the industry who are doing really good things and moving into leadership roles.

41:37 Yeah, I think it's really breaking apart a lot of the stigmas and stereotypes that we've carried for so long in the service sector, and particularly in construction and restoration. Brandon and I have been really fortunate, like I said, to not only work with a number of women leaders, but also in the operations side. We are seeing more and more estimators, project managers, senior technicians in the field that are female that are high-level operators. And it's fun. I mean, it's fun to see. And I think it is, without getting into gender stereotypes and stuff, because I think we've probably been wrong about many of them all along. But I think it's what's helping us adapt.

42:20 to the changing workforce, right? Talk about culture. I don't think you can have a complete culture without women in leadership. And so I think we're starting to see... We are starting to see some major changes. I think that is part of it, for sure. I agree. Do you think... Is there anything that can be promoted or talked about to attract more women into our industry? From your perspective, is there any message? Oh, that's a good question. That could go out to say like, hey, here's part of the background of this. We won't go into it. But we need new blood in this industry, period. Yes. And people don't know about it. Until I was in it, I had no reason to even be exposed to this industry.

43:02 And people have a lot of misconceptions on the kind of careers, not jobs, but careers that can be built in this super economy resistant, booming industry that we're in. How do we get more females to join? What's the message? Well, I think just what you said that there are so many career paths here. You could be a project manager or an estimator if you're somebody who's organized and likes being out in the field and likes to be in that leadership role, super organized, whatever. There's sales, there's marketing, there's operations, there's... There's GMs, there's everything. There's so much opportunity here. So I would say no matter what your passion is or your goal is, if you are somebody who likes to serve others and be part of a community, then there's probably a place for you in restoration.

43:50 And there's probably a restoration company that would love to hire you. How often do you guys go into a restaurant and you have a great server and you're like, Oh man, if I owned a restoration company right now, I would totally hire you for that position immediately. Right? That's how you have to recruit these days. You need to always be on the lookout for great customer service people around you and then not be afraid to be like, here's my card, by the way. I had a fun run in with a janitor in the men's in the women's bathroom. Gosh, I was in the women's bathroom. He was a man in the women's bathroom cleaning. That's where it came from. when I was at the core conference, and he was sweating and working his butt off. And as I'm going out, he goes, what is this conference about that you're at?

44:31 And I explained the industry a little bit. He didn't speak the best English, but I explained it as much as I could. And he's like, oh, well, are they hiring? Do any of them need workers? And I was like, Yeah. Let me go and find somebody and I will come right back for you. Because this guy was drenched, clearly working hard and then took the initiative to ask me about what was going on. And so I was able to actually go find a contractor who has a company in Austin, where the conference was and walked back with the owner's business card like, here, is he expecting your call tomorrow morning? I don't know how it ended up. I need to call and find out how it ended up. But... Those are the kind of people like you have to seek them out and hire them immediately. Those are the kind of people you want.

45:11 You're preaching the choir. I mean, this is one of the things that we are constantly drumming into our client's head, that it's not enough anymore to place your ads on Indeed because everybody's doing that. It's not enough anymore to put your ad on Craigslist because everybody's doing that. It's not enough to push out your open jobs onto your Facebook network and so forth because everybody's doing that. But what very few are doing are exactly what you did, which is in all of our daily interactions, watching out for the kinds of people that we want to build our team with and wherever they may be. When I was in insurance, I loved coffee shops. Yeah. baristas.

45:53 They follow a set process that's very specific. They have to be friendly. They have to be able to multitask and identify what are these other sources for finding the kind of talent we need. Because the skill sets... There's a lot of different industries that can cross over well into restoration. But it is this magic combo we need for most of our players of attention to detail, ability to follow process, consistent, accountable, whatever, reliable. but also friendly, able to connect with people, emotive. And there's a lot of places we can pull that kind of talent if we're actually getting out there and we're willing to pass out our cards, like you're talking about.

46:35 We're willing to walk up to people in a parking lot or at the bank or whatever. Or at the toilet. Or at the toilet. You know, hey, I heard you talking on your phone. You're looking for a job. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, exactly. I'll talk to anybody at this point. I recruited for four years before I took over CNR. That was kind of like a side hustle. And at that, I'm like, will you talk to me? I'm begging you to talk to me. I'll talk to anybody. We all need it. Wow. That's interesting. Okay. All right. Wow. You just opened up another little Pandora's mini box there. Tell us about recruiting. Can we talk about that? What were your best tactics for getting... meetings with people, for getting in contact with candidates, for converting and placing people?

47:18 Do you have any best practices you can share? I know everybody is hungry for them. Okay. So like you said, the Indeed, LinkedIn, ZipRecruiter, those posts, that's... It's really hard to get responses right now. But I would say once I got a response, I was quick about it. The second I get a response, you need to not sit on those. If you get somebody that applies for a job, do not sit. You need to respond to them. And it came back to relationships for me. I always tried to be very personable and kind up front and... I didn't waste a moment trying to set up a screening with them. I tried to set that up in my first email. Like, thank you so much for your application. I would really love to speak to you at your earliest convenience.

48:01 Do you have time for a brief phone interview? I always said that as well. So they know like, I literally just need like 20 minutes of your time for this first round here. And if I can get sales, if I can get them on the phone for that 15 to 20 minute screening, and they end up being a good fit, that also gave me 15 to 20 minutes to show them that I care. I'm invested in this. I know about the company that I'm hiring for. I'm not going to put you in a company that's going to be a bad fit. I had times where there would be companies ready to give a candidate an offer. And I would just get to the point where I'm like, I really just don't think that this candidate is the right fit for your company. And I would tell them that. If there were red flags going off on my end, it was more for me about the quality and the relationships than making the money or making the hire right.

48:45 I want it to be done right. Otherwise, we're just going to be redoing it later. I don't want to cost the companies more money, any of that. Anyway, I guess back to the original question, timeliness is everything. You cannot sit on the applications. You cannot keep these candidates waiting weeks on end. with no answers between interviews. Please don't run them through five rounds of interviews unless they're going for a really high up position. You should know pretty quickly within a couple interviews if it's going to work out or not, right? So I know a lot of people do kind of first round interview is more character, just the character and who they are match the company. And then second time around, we're digging more into like the skillset and stuff like that. The other advice I have is please don't get so caught up on whether or not people know industry software like Xactimate.

49:29 That stuff can be trained. Ask questions like, are you tech savvy? How good are you at Excel? How do you keep yourself organized? Listen to those answers. Do they use the calendar on their phone? How are they taking notes? How are they documenting other parts of their day and other parts of their current job? And once you figure that out, exactly, it can be trained. I understand that it's a complex software. And there's a lot of line items. I understand all that. But don't pigeonhole. You're going to have a really hard time finding somebody that knows Xactimate. You're going to be looking for a really long time. And you might get somebody with bad habits. You might be better off hiring somebody that has the right character and has maybe a construction background that's not restoration and is going to be able to be trained on the software.

50:14 That's a really great nugget, actually. I love that. Yeah. For example, tell me about your favorite apps that you use on your phone. Tell me about the last new software that you learned how to use. Yeah. That's so great. That is good. Yeah. If I was talking to somebody in construction that has a background in construction but not restoration, I just asked them what other software they use. And I would listen for stuff like Sage and... Timberline and stuff like that, that triggers like, okay, all right. They know other things and we're good here. Maybe they can be trained on it and you can train somebody up a whole lot faster than you can find somebody with the skills that you're looking for right now. Yeah. And we've obviously... The industry's got a really affordable resource with AI, Actual Insights and others.

50:55 So yeah, that's cool. Hey, for the sake of time, we should probably start drawing this to the close. We want to be respectful of you. But I want to highlight something really quick before we let you go. Two things. We always wrap up with getting some more details on where are we sending people to connect with you. So we'll grab that in a minute. But... That story at the event and you going and grabbing one of the local contractor's card and connecting the dots between that contractor and a possible hire says a whole bunch about what this industry really is. is for you. And I don't want that to get lost on the show here.

51:35 Part of the reason that Chris and I have been attracted to what you're doing and wanted to stay connected with you is that we do see you serving the industry, not taking from the industry. You're a business owner. Chris and I just had an exchange with a vendor service yesterday where they're offering a service we need. And literally, Chris, in the middle of the sales pitch, Chris stops this guy and goes, Okay, but how are you making your money? And it wasn't like a put you on the spot, but it's like, hey, we're not going to do business with people and assume they don't have to make a living. That's ridiculous. And so we just had this really raw, honest conversation from that point forward where it's like, okay, we see what you're going to do for us.

52:17 Why does that make sense for you? And how do we win together? And so we really respect that. And you're doing that. You are legitimately trying to add content and provide service to our industry that's beneficial to us as vendors, as contractors. And so I don't want that to get lost. There's not very many people that are selling to us that are going to take the actions that you did at that event. as granular as trying to connect somebody to a new potential employee. So kudos for you. I think it's a testament for what you're bringing to the industry. I hope when people hear that story, they're more loyal to supporting you and participating in what you're trying to do for us. So that being said, where are we sending people? What's the one place we've got them for 5 seconds?

52:58 Where are they going to go so that they can connect with you? They are going to C and the word and, A-N-D, rmagazine.com. C and rmagazine.com. There's a little subscribe button up at the top. It's free. You can get a print edition, the digital edition. I will say thank you to all the friends out there who wanted the print edition, but chose digital to save me money. It's okay. You can get the print issue. Go ahead. It's really fine. It's free. Go for it. Awesome. I love it. Thank you so much, Michelle. You're a gift to the industry. I hope we continue to be able to support you and see you grow. And I know we're going to catch up soon again. So we will see you in the very near future, I am sure. Yes, you will. And people will see you on the website in your column.

53:40 So people can go to CNR and see you guys too. All right. Thank you for your time. Let's rock it. Thanks. Okay. See you, Michelle. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of the MRM podcast. And if you got something out of it, share it with a friend, hit subscribe, hit follow, leave us a five-star review. Thanks a lot.