Ep 184 - "Not Trying To Get Political"

0:00 Wow. How many of you have listened to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast? I can't tell you that reaction, how much that means to us. Welcome back to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brennan. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. This new camera angle makes my arms look smaller than yours. I'm noticing that and I really appreciate it. I thought you did that on purpose. No, I don't. I didn't. And I am not happy with it. Oh, gosh. Well, you know, it's actually very apropos because I was saying stupid things that I don't fully mean. And dang near got caught on the recording.

0:40 Sensational, provocative things coming out of my mouth just purely for the enjoyment of Brandon. And lo and behold, we're recording. Lo and behold. Yeah. So welcome to the Head, Heart, and Boots podcast. Oh, goodness. Dude, I... I'm going to level with you, man. Last couple of weeks have been weird. I don't know if this is the go-to, like we should all be talking about this or not, but I am not. I am completely unsettled about the Charlie Kirk thing. Yeah, me too, man. I am very much so. And I think actually you asked me if I was okay, because maybe I seemed a little troubled even when we came into the studio this morning. But I think it's hooked me in a bunch of different ways.

1:22 Yeah. I did a post where it kind of started for me, apart from the obvious event, right? Like I forget how I initially heard about it. I think I might have even been checking LinkedIn and saw somebody say, hey, Charlie was just shot. I don't recall exactly. So of course, I had that whole experience of watching the video and all of that stuff. But then later on that day, I did a Facebook post because... So, background. I'm not like a huge Charlie Kirk fan, necessarily. Sure. But I was aware of him, and I got turned on to him from my boys. So, I have a 17 and 14-year-old boys. And he was one of the ones that they watched along with Mr. Beast.

2:02 And, you know, they have, like, they really thought it was fun to watch him do the debate videos. Right? Mm-hmm. And so I would sit down and watch it with them pretty regularly. And I really found them to also be fun and interesting. And frankly, for my 17 and 14-year-old boys, there's aspects of Charlie Kirk that I think are great role modeling for my boys, right? It takes a lot of courage to invite debate on college campuses, especially just given the current kind of dynamics in our culture. Sure. Right? He's very articulate. He's very smart. He's very well-read. He's all these things, right? So I make a post on Facebook to the effect of, hey, really sad to see the murder of Charlie Kirk.

2:46 I've been watching with my boys and I find him and I had mentioned some of these virtues that I've identified in him and whatever. I don't agree with everything Charlie Kirk believes and thinks and says. And I put that in the Facebook post and holy cow, what? Within like 48 hours, there's like 5,000 views of that Facebook post. My liberal and conservative friends are flooding into this post. And then the comments start to turn pretty aggressive. People really pissed off about who Charlie Kirk was in their view and what he was about or not about. And to be honest, it became pretty overwhelming. One of my friends texted me and said, Hey, I hope you're...

3:29 I hope you're ready to become Facebook moderator, you know? And I wasn't, to be honest. I mean, there was some pretty vicious things that people said towards me. And the fact that I would watch Charlie Kirk with my teenage boys. So it was interesting, you know? And then over the weekend, it was so bad. I mean, I don't know, bad. I mean, it was just... It was a little bit startling, some of the responses I got. And it made me question myself. It made me question, God, have I not watched enough of him? Yeah, sure. And maybe I'm just missing huge chunks of really kind of sinister and bad behavior on his part and terrible things that he's apparently said and whatnot. And so, you know, as my wife and I were coming back from a little getaway this weekend, we actually put on a playlist of his YouTube videos of the debates and stuff.

4:16 Didn't cherry pick. Just kind of just watched like 12, 13 videos on the, well, I wasn't watching as I was driving. Yeah. That's an important note. Of course you weren't. Listening. That's insane. And I think it just made me more confused as to what exactly people saw in him. I was just like, man, I would never have interpreted the content of his debates in that way. So I think it's just been very uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? I think that's, it's interesting. So our house is a mixed politic house. Yeah. You and I kind of made this joke for a while that you and I are like fiscally conservative and maybe socially a bit more liberal. Libertarian.

4:57 Right? Yeah. I would say libertarian. I would tend to be like, I would say at this point in my life, I tend to be a live and let live. Hey, if you're not harming me, yourself, or other people, I'm not going to judge and try to control you. Yeah. That's kind of my feeling. Yeah. We have a mix of views in my house and a lot of feelers. Oh. You know, we have feelers in our home. And politics have never been a real safe conversation, like in general. And it's because I can get a little heated and opinionated and all the things and... Anyways, long and story short, I'm used to our home kind of not making politics front and center. And when I heard about the news, again, I'm going to say something similar that you did is I don't care if you buy into everything he said.

5:45 I don't buy into 100% of what anybody says to include my own perspectives because those perspectives have changed over the years as I gain more lived experience. the vision for myself, my family, the values, they modify over time as I've even gained life experience. And so, I'm not diehard anybody, really. Yeah. But I'm open to hearing ideas and hearing other people's perspectives. And I think what, I'm sad. I'm sad. And I think where I'm having some tough time communicating that is it's not necessarily the person. Like, I'm not sad because I had some deep relationship with Charlie Kirk, right?

6:28 I watched some of his debates from time to time. Like, that's it. Like I maybe have an hour of log time of any, like I'm not even vouching for him. I'm not doing any of those things, but there's this weird boundary that got broken that from my perspective, really, it makes me sad. And I, It's this weird boundary where all of a sudden we are all capable and from some groups feel obligated to dehumanize this American who was killed on a college campus in public in broad daylight.

7:09 Mm-hmm. So from a human to human experience, none of that seems okay. Reportedly also with his wife and children in the audience. His daughter was in the audience. So just if we just remove every ounce of politics, because I don't really even want this to be a, this is me, we're just talking about what the fuck is going on. And I'm just perplexed. I'm perplexed that we're not all unified as Americans behind the idea that someone was shot in the neck in broad daylight on a public campus. I don't care what your politics are.

7:50 Like, I just, I don't even care what your politics are when someone is killed for the things they're saying. Yeah. That's a scary proposition, dude. It is. That's a scary proposition. And I'm just struggling to understand how it's possible that we've come a crossroads as a nation where because of my political views, I'm capable of making someone not human anymore. Mm-hmm. I don't understand how we got there, dude. It's hard for me to fathom. I've been deployed overseas. I've been in combat environments and quotes. I've seen evil. I've seen people that actually hate other human beings.

8:33 I've seen what they're willing to do and how they talk about other human beings. And that's very different than someone having a political opinion. I was listening to just a moment. I think Jocko did a very great, I think he did a great job. He put out something. Not long ago. It's about 25 minutes long. And he just basically was drawing a correlation of what evil looks like. Like when somebody's declared evil, like an enemy, and what that looks like. And one of the things that he did in that is he just referenced the idea that because we follow the Geneva Convention, because we're an American army and we care about human life, or American military, and we care about human life, that there's rules and protocols.

9:18 Just because someone does something that's even documented as evil and violent, we still don't get to go rolling into another country and just kill whoever we want at the drop of it. There's protocols, approvals, chains of command. All these things go into play to take place. Yeah. to deem an enemy combatant enemy and take the kind of action that was taken against Charlie Kirk during that event. And if you just slow down for a minute and think about that, How can we possibly be comfortable with what just happened? I'm struggling to even put words to it because I don't understand how violence is equal to words.

10:03 I agree. So it's troubling, obviously, that somebody felt like they had the right to or the need to do what they did and kill Charlie. But then the reactions of people has been equally disturbing. I think almost more so, dude. Because honestly, for a single individual to have some kind of mental break of some sort, to take the kind of action that's marginal at best. Like this is a one-of-one kind of thing. It sucks. It's ugly. It's gross. Serial killers, gross. Rapists, gross. Like those psychotic events, these people who have a mental break from reality and cross these boundaries, sick.

10:48 It's unbelievably sad. But it does happen. Yeah. And it has happened for centuries. The response to the action is what is completely boggling my mind right now. Yeah. I think it's another example of a cultural shift that, you know, we as business owners have seen within our workforce for a while. And, you know, there's been books written about like, and I don't think it's just a millennial thing, not even kind of, but we've talked a little bit about it as with regard to sort of working with the millennial and these upcoming generations of workforces. There's a cultural norm that's kind of taken hold where you are responsible for my feelings. Yeah.

11:29 Everybody else is responsible for my feelings and the resulting behavior that I do in response to my feelings. That's what it feels like. It feels like, because a lot of the things that were said about Charlie Kirk, again, regardless of what you think about his spirituality or his political convictions or really anything that he said, even if you think everything he said— was gross and terrible and awful and bad policy and everything else. So let's just assume that all of that were true. It feels like the overwhelming attitude between maybe two responses was... Yeah. Well, of course he didn't deserve to die, but have you heard the things that he said?

12:15 Yeah. Like, almost as though it's understandable that somebody killed him. It's understandable somebody did this because he was so rude or he was mean-spirited or he, I mean, what were the terms? I mean, he's mean- misogynist, he's a racist, a Nazi, he's a sexist, he's all of these things. And so because he is, quote, those things, based on words he said, supposedly, then kind of, sort of, he deserved it. It's okay. He provoked his own violence. He provoked the violence against him. I see this throughout our culture. I do. Like, I see this throughout our culture. Not with everybody, but it does feel like there's kind of these tribal norms.

12:58 And this is one of the norms that is being pushed, is that if you offend me or make me feel unsafe or all of these different terms that we use now, well, then I'm kind of entitled to react however I react. Yeah. And it's not my fault. Yeah. It's because you said this. And I think the hard thing and the thing that's been so confusing and a little bit destabilizing for me just thinking about this is that nobody made people listen to Charlie Kirk. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. It wasn't like he held conferences at gunpoint. No, no, no, no. He's on a public campus. Anybody can step up to the microphone. Yeah. And ask a question. I think so for other leaders, and you and I have a podcast.

13:42 It's like, I don't know, it's not like we have Joe Rogan audience or whatever, but it's like you and I are saying things out here. And I think the loud message that was sent in the wake of all of this is, you're putting yourself at risk. If you speak honestly about what you think about the ideas that you believe in or are trying to promote, because we're all trying to promote ideas. That's right. It's life 101. It's what we do. It's what people and humans do is, I think this idea is better than that idea. And we try to get that idea to stick. That's what we do. It's what we do in countries. It's what we do in schools. It's what we do in marriages. It's what we do with our kids.

14:22 It's all the things, right? And I feel like there was this message of, If you say something that is contrary to what I think and feel, I have every right to try to silence you by whatever means necessary. I think what's so, well, just when you say it out loud, it's clearly disturbing, right? Yeah. But I think what becomes almost nonsensical is that, oh man, this is so hard not to get really political, but... Isn't that kind of like what victimhood really is when it boils down to it? Like it's this idea, right? That full-scale victimhood. It's full-scale victimhood. And it's so one-sided. Yeah. Just think about how one directional your mental perspective or mental model has to be when I'm going to be careful to stay out of certain dynamics maybe, but the clothes you want to wear, the hairstyle you want to have, the orientation of life, sex, whatever that you want to take.

15:21 Like you can do and say whatever the fuck you want, but when someone else does, now you believe that violence is totally appropriate. How does that make any sense to, What so ever. Isn't that what many people groups and all of us are fighting for is equality. We want our opinion to count. We want our voice to be heard. That's normal. That's normal social need. Right. And I think that's a viable and important value to prop up and to lean into and to ask and have an expectation around.

16:04 Yeah, absolutely. But as soon as that becomes a one-way door only, we just have to ask ourselves some really difficult questions. And I think what I'm struggling with in terms of the masses is... is why is that a complicated concept for us to understand? I'm confused. And I'm not being tongue-in-cheek. I'm genuinely confused. Why is it okay for one people group to determine that violence is an appropriate response is not liking what someone says? Yeah. I don't understand that. And that's what gets me burnt. Like that's, that's what makes me sad in my guts is it's not okay for someone to drive an airplane into a public building and kill 5,000 people, but it's okay for someone to get shot in the neck because their opinion's different than mine.

16:57 How the fuck is that? Okay. I think what it is, is we have let go. I'm saying collectively, not all of us, hopefully, but, we've let go of our responsibility for ourselves. For ourselves. Right. Like I was, again, I probably should just get off of Facebook because it creates a lot of... Man, I don't even... Dude, I'm going to be honest with you. I don't even make comments on there because I don't want to deal with the comment. I don't want to hear people say things to me that they would never say to my face. Here's the problem. And here's why I did the post. I think this is important. You know, we have a lot of leaders You and I have a certain measure of influence with the work that we do.

17:39 And a lot of people listening to this have great influence over their businesses, their communities, our industry, et cetera. And one of the things that motivates me in the wake of all of this is if reasonable people like you and I don't articulate our feelings on these kinds of events and on other important matters, the discourse is dominated by the extremists. Yeah, it's true. the people on the far left or the far right or the far up or the far down or whatever. Yeah. Like if reasonable people like us allow ourselves to be so afraid of the consequences. Yeah. That are clearly are real.

18:19 Yeah. If we allow ourselves to be intimidated by this kind of cultural norm, it's going to continue to get more and more extreme in the culture that all of us are living in. Yeah. Because I feel like that's exactly what's happened over the last five years is, really five or 10 years is, is there's been this cancel culture has emerged. I don't know who exactly it started with, but I think when I first heard that term, it was around this canceling of Jordan Peterson. Yeah. You know, because he was not cool going along with all the different pronouns and different things. And they're like, screw you. And he's getting taken off stages and all this kind of stuff.

19:01 Regardless of your views on any of the social matters and political matters of the day. this cancel culture, I think, made it so that people can't, if they are not in line with whatever the prevailing thought is on media or social media or whatever, all of a sudden now there's a risk. Yeah. There's a risk to communicating something that is in opposition to that thing. And I think that's a very dangerous path, but it's gotten me to shut up most of the time. Yeah, it's the same. It's same. It's like I was even nervous about the idea that we were even going to talk about this topic at all. And it's silly. I think there's this crazy... I think it kind of comes back to this idea, man, of I want to live in a country... How do I want to say this?

19:47 A lot of hard, scary, dark things have been experienced by many men and women that... over the centuries, to give Americans, century, Americans, the freedom to show up in a public space and voice their opinion without fear of being beheaded or stoned to fucking death. And I've seen that world, okay? And there's more parts of the globe that you open your mouth and you may not walk out of that room than there's not. And the fact that we have seen men and women sacrifice things, hard things, to give us the ability to be safe, to provide our perspective and our opinion and get into a dialogue and have disagreement.

20:37 Yeah. That's a powerful world to live in. And it is the backbone of what makes America so fundamentally different and important in the world. Yeah. What we're doing right now through our own actions is deliberately removing the safety that so many people have sacrificed to give us. And I think that's what breaks my heart is that at the end of the day, people that have extreme perspectives, maybe extreme is not fair. Those that believe certain things the way they've been in the past aren't right the very idea that they have the ability to show up in a public place and speak that is because...

21:27 It's uniquely American. It's uniquely American, and it is a right. It is something that was bled and sacrificed for. And I am just very distraught that the people, not they, not them, us people, the fact that we have the right to do that... And to get frustrated with somebody because they're more Christian leaning than I am or get frustrated over the fact that someone wants more religious based decision making and not like that very bedrock thing that gives us the freedom to show up and have a differing perspective. Yeah. we are going to dismantle that because we make it not safe ourselves.

22:12 Not from the government's perspective, not from a country perspective. Because of how we treat each other. Because of how we treat each other. We're going to shit all over the most important freedom that we have. That's really scary. That's a scary thought. I know a lot of people talked about a major, almost like civil war backlash. And obviously we didn't see any of that. In fact, I actually am really proud the way that a lot of people groups are responding to what's going on right now. But I just think at the end of the day, man, it's like I think why this is so difficult for me to let go of is I'm one of the guys that's been overseas and seen what the rest of the world can look like when real evil is in a seat. When real evil and a real lack of human care exists, it's not Charlie Kirk, dude.

22:59 Okay? Like I just, let's just be honest. It's... Look, right, wrong, or indifferent. If you don't like him, cool. I don't, fine. He's not walking up to you and your family with a drill and torturing you until you change your opinion. And that actually is happening all around the world right now. He wasn't evil. He said things you don't agree with. Get the fuck over it. Yeah. I think that's an important point too, is that our freedom of speech doesn't just protect... nice speech. It doesn't just protect things that we like. It has to include... When people offend me, you know, I remember I grew up in the Rush Limbaugh days, but you know who else?

23:43 You know what else was front and center too was Howard Stern. Sure. Yeah. Howard Stern. Yeah, they were almost simultaneously. Yeah, they were. The same kind of era. Like the rise of Rush Limbaugh. And I guess in some ways, maybe it's appropriate, right? Rush Limbaugh, like super conservative. And then you got Howard Stern over here. It's like just a clash of the days. Oh my goodness, right? I mean, just absolutely ridiculous. whatever. But like, you know what? I've never, ever felt the inclination to try to, I've never been part of that crowd. That's like, you know, Howard Stern should be fired or censored or whatever. It's like, it's like, no Howard, there's people that listen to him and like him, think he's funny, fine, you know, whatever they find value in that.

24:29 Just no different than the Rush Limbaugh's and the, I don't even know all the prevailing names now, but it's like that is part of what makes America great. It is. It is. And you vote with your time and your dollars. That's right. And your attention. If you don't want to give attention to something, you don't have to. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. You make decisions with your time and your dollars. I think that's a great point. In my mind, I want my kids, I want my grandkids to be able to have their own opinion and their own perspective. And many times I won't agree with it. Sometimes I will. I hope mine feel exactly the same way as I do and they agree with everything I say.

25:10 I mean, hope. I hope for that, you know? Yeah, you want it, right? Yeah. But I want more than anything, I want them to be able to stand on their own two feet and have perspective. And I want them to feel safe in a country that a lot of people have bled for, to have those opinions and those perspectives. And I just, my petition to all of us, left, right, center, I don't care, ask yourself some hard questions right now. Like, are you attributing to others the same standard that you would hold yourself to? Mm-hmm. You know, are you slowing down long enough to realize that the very thing that gives you the ability to have an opinion and be outspoken, that's a gift.

25:51 It was earned by somebody. It may not be you, but it was earned by somebody. And what are you doing with that? What are you doing with that freedom? Yeah. I don't know if there's much more we can do with that. I don't know. It's probably, we probably don't need to. Yeah. Let's close that one up. All right. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart, and Boots. And if you're enjoying the show, but you love this episode, please hit follow, formerly known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps.

26:32 Thanks for listening.