Ep 60 - "Resilience Or Grit" With Jenny Vandehey

0:00 Chris, how you doing, dude? Awesome, man. We have a rad guest today. Yes, we do. It's such a fun chat, man. Really love connecting with her. This is round number two with her. Yeah, it is. And actually, it sounds like we already have a third discussion plan, but we won't get into that now. Heck yeah. Save that for later. Yeah. Yeah. I think the topic we went through today was really great. And we had some email conversation and chat leading up to it. And it's something that I think Jenny's really passionate about. And first on site, I think collectively is really trying to wrestle with some of these questions. I think about where's our industry going? Where does our industry need to go? And this topic today about resilience and what I think many of us would called grit, determination.

0:45 It's like we're in such a challenging industry in a lot of regard that we... Of course, right now, we have people from all over the country that are engaged in catastrophe work down in Florida and 18-hour days and burning the candle at both ends. And so we spend a lot of time talking about how do we lead our teams and our companies to in such a way that we're sustainable, that we can be healthy, that our people can be healthy. Yeah. In the midst of work that is so challenging, both physically and emotionally, you know? Yeah. And I think it's interesting too, because she does bring kind of a different or a newer, let's call it a newer or fresher spin.

1:28 on what grit really is. I'm not going to give it away. I think it's kind of interesting. And it's pretty obvious where we go in the conversation. But that was the part that just struck me. It's like, oh, yeah, that is a different way than I've thought about it. I think there's room to innovate. And I just, I really love, you know, Jenny's very curious, you know. And of course, she comes from outside the industry, which I think is just such an advantage, you know, the fresh eyes to see our industry from a little bit different perspective. And so she comes with some great ideas, I think, about how we can, both recognize and develop grit. She has some other terminology for it. But how do we protect our people? How do we create healthy rhythms in our business? Yeah, for sure. That allow people to recover.

2:09 I guess that's as much as I'll say about the chat. Yeah, exactly. But how do we manage this dynamic in our industry? It's so difficult. It's so challenging. It's so emotional at times and physically demanding. What do we do as companies, as leaders, to create a healthy environment where people can still thrive? Yeah, agreed. All right, my man. So Jenny Vandehey of First On Sight. Let's get into it. All right. Welcome back to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brandon. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. Man, I love this industry.

2:51 All right. Hey, Jenny, thanks so much for joining us. This is round number two with you. Man, you were on the show, gosh, early in our... Oh, it was three, four or five months ago, maybe? Yeah, it's been a chunk of time. So anyways, we are so excited to have you back. It's great to be back. Thanks so much for having me again. So we're going to dive into an interesting topic. I think why I was excited about it is because I think people have a wrong perspective on it. So a while back, Chris and I were introduced to an executive coach. And Amy, if you're out there in the world being an HR beast that you are, we thank you so much for everything that you contributed to our development. But one of the things that she brought up early was this wrestling with grit.

3:35 And the idea of how companies are proactively engaging their employees to create grit. She's very wise, has very interesting perspectives on it, and always is approaching this legacy, how it affects the entire company. Yeah, she's thinking about it holistically, for sure. Yeah, big time. Man, we had a chat with you, though. It's been a week or so. And you brought up grit. And your perspective on it, I've just fired us up and we're like, okay, that's a show. We got to tackle that. So to get us started, just lay out this framework that you've been wrestling with, with this idea of grit and what it really is in this professional environment.

4:17 Yeah, I mean, I think that word certainly isn't new to our industry, right? I think it's one that we typically associate with the work that we do. And another way I like to think about grit is really resilience. And that's a concept that has been talked about for decades, but COVID certainly brought it back to the forefront of how we keep our teams resilient in the midst of the pandemic and all of the things that surround the pandemic that we're dealing with. at home, in the workplace, and so forth. And the more I started thinking about resilience, there was such a disconnect between how I hear people talk about it and use that word and what it really means if you start to dig into the definition.

5:04 As I was asking people casually, what does resilience mean to you? It kept coming back to this idea of like, it's how much you can endure. It's just getting through something and not breaking. It's how much you can take. And that just didn't sound very... It just didn't feel very optimistic. And it didn't feel like a healthy thing, actually. And when I looked up the word endure, it literally means to suffer patiently. Oh, wow. And it was like, is that really what we're striving for? Can we raise the bar a little bit on what we aim for? It's not very aspirational. No, that's the word I was looking for. Yeah, not mystic, not aspirational.

5:46 And so I started then digging into what is resilience really about? Because surely there's more to aspire to than to suffer patiently and hope for the best. Yeah. And I actually found some pretty interesting things. One of those is, that resilience is really about our capacity to bounce back. So in that, I think it's understood that there's something we need to endure, but it's really about the capacity we have to bounce back from these hard things, not just how much can you take. That whole suffering... What's it? Suffering patiently? Suffer patiently. Oh my gosh, dude.

6:27 Yeah. I've never really thought about that word grit from that perspective or endure. And it's like... Endure. Yeah. And if you think about things like endurance training and all of that, it's like, yeah, it's suffering patiently. So I think we can raise the bar a little bit for ourselves. But when you think about it as the capacity to bounce back... you really start to understand that it's something you can train. It's like a muscle that you can develop over time. And so again, going back to the word grit, it tends to be almost like an attribute. You either have that or you don't. But actually, resilience is something you can train and practice over time so that your capacity to recover from hard things is increased.

7:11 Yeah. And that is when teachers talk about rebellions at school, which I see all the time because I have little ones, that's what they need. How do we teach our kids to develop that muscle so that they can bounce back from the hard things? And I was like, maybe that's been there all along. And I just misunderstood it. But it's become pretty clear to me that the way we use it, even in our industry, it's missing something. Yeah, I think in the, is it military ranks? I don't know. There's this saying of suffer well. Like it's this idea of you just, you find a way to maybe mentally find stability in the midst of the suffering, which granted, I think there's just an unbelievable amount of value in that, maybe that skillset, right?

7:55 That ability to understand that it does, some scenarios and timeframes require patience. And you do have to just stick to it. Like you're going to get through it, it's going to be okay. But boy, framing that idea of developing grit into suffering patiently, that's not necessarily... So on this bouncing back idea, now for those of you that maybe aren't recalling Jenny's position in the organization she works for... roughly 2,400 employees. Yeah. So not a small company. And certainly the impact of these ideas and concepts as you introduce them and support your team members in the use and development of it is significant.

8:39 So for us smaller teams, Just think about this. And Chris and I always try to make this connection is when large influential companies in our business are considering these types of things, it behooves us to stop and hear them and take them seriously about how we can begin to introduce these to our ranks. And I would say if your team's 10, this idea is a whole lot easier to start talking about and navigating things. Versus companies that have already reached these legacy phases in terms of size and scope. So anyway, a little background there. But talk to us about that. What are you then breaking down and beginning to develop your understanding around with this bouncing back concept?

9:20 Well, I think in part, it's how we manage our energy and time. And I intentionally say energy because sometimes it's not a matter of hours, right? Sometimes it's truly like, do I have the mental capacity for something right now? And I actually ran into that the other day where I was telling my boss, you know, it's not that there's not enough hours in the day. It's that today my brain is at capacity for this. And I need to, like, I need to bounce back from that. And so I think it's really managing our energy wisely. And we have actually broken down this topic of resilience into subcategories through the help of a partner, the company that we work with called Headversity.

10:03 I think I've brought them up before. They're a resilience training app. Wow. Okay. It's super cool because it, again, acknowledges that this is something we can practice and train and grow. We don't have to wait until we fall apart or burn out. And... They break it down into all of these different categories. And what we are able to do as our team members use the app is look at the aggregate anonymous data to understand where do we struggle with resiliency. And actually, for us, it was energy management. We need to focus more on unplugging and allowing ourselves to have that recovery period.

10:45 And I think part of that is identifying what is truly urgent. And what is not? And when we find those pockets of time to recharge and rest and recover, and those are not words that we hear as much in our space. Yeah. Certainly not with affirmation or almost being pointed out as the skill. It's more like, yeah, do what you need to do. But they're not highlighted as the goal under normal conditions. Yeah, it's like we acknowledge that, hey, some people need an off switch, but I don't. Yeah, there's still this public value. There's still this virtue in being the person that can just grind nonstop.

11:29 That reputation is a very strong one in our industry. That person who seemingly has no end to their gas tank, we definitely still hold that up versus holding up people that are prioritizing this cadence of output and recovery. Output, recovery, output, recovery. We don't glorify that yet in our industry. We glorify the grinders. Yeah. And I think that is changing at a more macro level. Even at the conference I was just at last week, it was really calling out hustle culture as something that we're done with that.

12:09 Now, I don't think our industry is as done with that yet. I think there's still some glamour around it. But I also am always so appreciative of... leaders who are open about how they reset and recharge. To say that gives other people permission to do that. Yeah. And it's so important. So this conference that you went to, it was a tech conference, right? It was a culture-focused conference that happened to have a lot of tech companies as attendees. And that doesn't surprise me because I think this idea of even having a culture... role, a culture department is quite new. So it was a lot of HR folks who happened to work at a lot of tech companies, LinkedIn, Microsoft, and so forth.

12:57 One of the things, Jenny, I wrestle with a bit, and I really want to get your perspective because you're the person that's being... Anyways, you're interacting with these groups on a different level than somebody like me is. So it's easy, I think, sometimes for us to look at tech companies, SaaS companies, software companies and go, yeah, but half their business model is you cannot make a profit for like 20 years and people still think you're amazing. We're just good old homegrown home family businesses. When we don't produce a profit for two months, we're dead. So I think it's easy for us as folks listening to immediately create this separation of what they have the capacity to do and prioritize versus what me as a small business owner can do.

13:39 Yeah, 8 or 10 or 15 employees. Yeah, it's like, I can't. That might be nice navel-gazing over there, but I can't afford to do that. You work for a large corporation that cares very much about the bottom line. They are not deferring profits for a period of time for any reason. What are you guys seeing? What does the conversation look like for you in terms of how are key leaders saying, Okay, we still are prioritizing cash flow and we still think this is important. What does that look like for you guys? Well, I think a big part of it is just recognizing that our people are at the center of all those things that we have to do and that we prioritize. And if our people are not feeling cared for, those things will be impacted.

14:23 Right. Even if we are very different from tech companies in terms of the things that keep us up at night, we still rely on our people to do what it is that we do. And then in our industry, you layer in safety as a very big part of what we do and the client experience. And so I think there's a genuine understanding and care for our people at the center of it all that makes it possible for me to do what I do here at First On Site. Yeah, that's interesting. Safety. This sounds so silly. I haven't even thought about it from that perspective. Pilots can't fly for umpteen hours without rest, right? Black Hawk pilots have specific ground time that they are required to take.

15:07 Our industry is dangerous. There is a safety mechanism for us to consider. And so you guys internally are saying, hey, there's costs associated with dangers, right? With us not being safe. And that too is playing into your guys' decision making in terms of where you'll spend money or invest energy in terms of this kind of conversation. Is that what I'm hearing you? Yes. And actually, this initiative with Headversity was a joint effort with our head of safety and head of HR. in my team. Because I think there's shared understanding, although our lenses are different, that this is a human issue. It's a safety issue. It's a people issue. And it's very real, not just in our company, but in our industry and beyond.

15:51 And actually, our head of safety, his whole philosophy is quite unique in that if you ask him what it means to him. He said, well, it's about loving your people. So it's not just about saving money and not getting in trouble and checking the boxes. It's really like, because it's the right thing to do. Yeah. And that was really awesome to hear when I first met him. Yeah. But you know, the other thing that we've talked about over the years is just the reality that we're all just a person. Like we, I think we watched previous generations, our parents, grandparents, probably just because survival, right? We've evolved over time to sort of, we have a different consciousness, a different awareness about these things now in the last 20 years.

16:34 Yeah. we feel the freedom now to think about the quality of our work. Whereas I think previous generations just like it's work and it's like, it's making ends meet. And as we come out of that and we get to choose the kind of work we want to be a part of and do and what kind of life we're building, that's becoming more and more common to talk about that stuff. Yeah. I think one of the things you and I ended up talking a lot about is just how much people's personal lives, how what's happening in our work is, affects our home life. And what's happening in our home life, our personal, our romantic relationships, as parents, all of those things, our friends, cultivating a life outside of work has its own impact on our work, right?

17:16 So like me, I've shared on the podcast very vulnerably because I think I'm probably not alone. Like when there's friction between my wife and I of any sort, for any reason, It is tugging at my sleeve during my workday. I'm thinking about it. I can't help but think about it. Doesn't mean I'm not present. It doesn't mean I'm not doing the things, but I'm a little less present. And I'm affected by the quality of my personal relationships in my home life. And I think we forget that the reset component is not just physically. I've been on for 30 hours tackling this large loss or complex loss or a cat zone work or something like that.

17:56 But it's what is the external impact to my family relationships? Yeah. And also just my relationship to myself, right? Which I think our society is just now starting to consider. Yeah. You know? Like, how am I feeling? Like, what's happening inside me emotionally and spiritually and all those kind of things? Like, for you, when you think of coming back from a major output or a difficult or stressful or negative situation... What do you feel like are the components of restoration? If we want to apply that word, how do we go about restoring ourselves after we've had significant output? What's a good way for us to think about that repair process?

18:37 Well, I think part of it is understanding what it looks like for you, right? Because for some people, it truly is rest. I'm really bad at rest. I want to get better at that. But I know for me, what is restorative is actually... recharging with a different input that is a different kind of energy, right? Whether it's a walk in nature or... Yeah, I still need that input, but it is something wildly different from the thing I'm trying to recover or restore from. But it's not just sitting on the couch because that creates a different kind of stress. So acknowledging that it looks different for everyone and recovery does not have to be still.

19:18 It doesn't have to be passive. I think that's a hurdle for some people. Like, well, I don't sit still. I'm just going to go on to the next thing. Well, you can still recharge before you move on to the next thing. And maybe that is listening to a podcast or music or cooking something that you love or whatever it may be. So I think that's one piece. I think even what you were saying, Chris, is like acknowledging... that you've just had an experience and checking in with yourself. That's something that we forget to do because we are so focused on what's next. So even that awareness to pause and check in. And that might be all you need. Maybe you check in and you're like, cool, I'm good.

19:59 But that is a really big step that doesn't need to take a lot of time that just acknowledges your mind and your body that it's like, okay, we did this. And it's okay to take that little break. And I think that's where managers, leaders can help teams with that too. Of like, how are we doing? Because we don't often do that. And that's where sometimes we do have things to process and talk about. And that is also recovery, is allowing those conversations to happen. This is a really interesting facet of it to me, is what role can we or should we potentially have as employers and leaders with the environments we're creating, right?

20:41 the teams we're building in addressing the whole person and being interested. And we talk a lot about, like you mentioned, your safety manager. Hey, it's about the love of our people. At the end of the day, if we really care about our people, we really say we love our people and we don't have a really robust, sophisticated, progressive safety program, we're not living that out. And so if we say that, what role do we potentially play as employers? It makes me think of a story early on in my career. And I'll never forget it. In fact, I'm going to this guy's cabin and we're going to hang out. We remain lifelong friends. State Farm agent. Back when I was at State Farm, Jim Kuhlman, I was training in his office.

21:23 He's a very successful agent. I was working with him and I was trying to get approved for agency. State Farm has a really robust and that's a really intense interview process. And I'd been working for about a year. I think I was 25. It's way earlier in my career. And I went through the whole And it felt... I was super in that moment. He put it on speakerphone and we heard from the person at corporate. Yeah, we want Chris to season a bit. And then come back through the process. But the thing was, State Farm made you wait a year. If you got declined, you had to wait a whole year before you could reapply. Yeah. And I was devastated. And the bigger thing was, I was totally broadsided.

22:05 I thought I killed the interview. I thought I was like, best interview. Anyway, so it was incredibly embarrassing. And I'll never forget this. I cried. I was very destabilized by the whole thing. I'm sitting across the desk from Jim. And without even missing a beat, Jim said, you know what, listen, Chris. I think it was a Friday. He opened up his wallet. He took out his business credit card. He passed it across the table and said, listen, Chris. You got a lot to think about. Take my credit card. Take your wife to the coast. Get a hotel. Take her out to a nice dinner. You guys have some time just to process this because I know this is hard. And you guys think about, do you want to hang here for another year? Do you want to stick it out or do you want to make a change?

22:47 I'll understand either way, but I just want you to have some time. Anyway, I'll never forget the kindness of that moment. He was taking into account how this was going to land with both my wife and I because it was our dream. I wanted to own my own state farm agency, all the things. And this had just been delayed at the very least by a year. And his caring in that moment to recognize what I needed was huge. And so my question for you, especially in a large organization, obviously, we can't be given the company credit. The CEO isn't going to hand the company credit card to the person who just had a big setback and send them to the beach. But what responsibility or what opportunity do you think we have as employers of any size for us to play that kind of role in helping people recover from those emotional personal setbacks?

23:33 Or even just what does it look like for us as a company to care about that part of our people? Yeah. So immediately where my mind goes is the concept of holding space, which in my doula world is a really common phrase, probably less so in restoration or the corporate world. But it is essentially what your friend did in that moment. Now, even if he had not handed you a company or his credit card... He was creating space for you to react to this moment, think about it, and not forcing the conversation along out of discomfort, which I think is often what happens when bad news happens. We don't know what to do with that. And so we jump on to the next thing. But he was sitting in that moment with you and that's holding space.

24:18 And I think that that is something anyone can do. And that shows care and love for your people. Understanding, in your case, that this was impacting you, this was impacting your family, that also shows a level of care and love that some leaders wouldn't necessarily connect those dots or even know what the family situation is. Right. And so I think the minute we are willing to go there, it's a totally different dynamic. But that is what makes people truly feel cared for. Because I could see an instance where somebody handed their credit card, but it didn't feel like it was wrapped in care.

24:58 Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Totally. That's not what your experience was. It wasn't so much about that piece of it as it was feeling obscene and understood and cared for, if I'm understanding it correctly. A hundred percent. Yeah. He met me in this really vulnerable moment where I'm feeling embarrassed. I don't want to go home and tell my young wife, who we've been married like three years... I had this major career, what felt at the moment like a major career setback. Of course, in hindsight, most of these things end up seeming pretty small, right? Yeah. But in the moment, it was devastating. I was so embarrassed. Go to my new wife and I didn't get it. And he saw that. And I think in the moment too, part of his response showed me that he understood that Yeah.

25:44 Like it's being seen and not judged. And there's almost like, again, we talk about this a lot, just the value of not feeling alone. So many of us are stuck in our heads all day. We think that the stresses or struggles or challenges that we're facing are unique to us. And then you get in a great heart level conversation like we're engaging in. You're like, oh man, we all struggle. We all think about this stuff. We all struggle. Yeah, I'm not alone. Yeah. It makes me come back to that grit word because when you think about the work that we do and that outward grit, it's like, yeah, we'll walk through fires with each other or for each other. But will we walk through those fires, right? The internal, the feeling, the emotional, the life stuff. Why should it look any different?

26:26 And I think that's something that we can all think about. And it is different than before, right? In the workplace, what you talk about, what you don't talk about. But I really think that's where trust is built. is from being willing to go there. And also knowing when it is outside of the scope of what you can help with. Because I still think it can be a very loving and caring thing to say, I am so sorry you're going through this. And you may need to talk to someone who can really support you through this. And I'm also a source of support. But recognizing when it's not something we can fix. Yeah. Because that will happen.

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30:43 Tomorrow, I get a water call at 1 o'clock in the morning, and the team starts to go out, and I'm a team lead, I'm a manager. Like... What's the context here? So follow me. I'm going somewhere here, Jay. You had mentioned two things about that. Again, companies aren't necessarily going to send out credit cards. You're not even going to necessarily have a conversation with a CEO-level person, maybe. But you said creating space and recognition of the impact of the thing. The experience, the scenario. That, to me, sounds very executable. Yeah. Unpack that specifically for me though. So when it comes back to two things, this resting in order to recover, this helping people have grit because they are given some space.

31:30 What does this look like in an everyday practice? How can we do this? I mean, sometimes it's as simple as taking five minutes of saying, I need a breath. Or recognizing that for a team member. It doesn't have to be a big thing. I think it's on the days that are not crazy, giving your team the space to maybe go home early. We can't always be on and sometimes we have to be. So in those moments where we don't, how are we using that time? And it doesn't have to be going home, but it could be, let's just have this meeting outside. Let's go for a walk. Let's grab a coffee. Let's recharge out of the normal pace into something that might be energizing for us.

32:13 It's remembering that we can do that. We just had a steps challenge. It was the global steps challenge for the whole company. And it was such a great reminder of like, a meeting can happen anywhere. We can do walk-in meetings. We can do outside meetings. And some of those things become sticky of like, this feels really energizing in a way that fluorescently like conference room does not. at 3pm. And so just remembering that we can switch it up. And those things can be really restorative. So it doesn't always have to have to wait until something big or horrible has happened. But it's how do we just infuse this into our day-to-day so that we feel good?

32:56 Yeah. Because I think what we're starting to point to is how do we normalize healthy cadences in our business so that people have a language and a framework for it? They have a menu of options. I have a fun story. I haven't actually referenced this in a while. But I was doing some executive coaching for a branch manager of a... restoration location. And he was having a particularly stressful day. I mean, just all the things were going wrong. Having trouble finding people, had a conflict between employees to address and jobs that were going sideways, all the things. And we had our normal session, he showed up to it. And my question always with my coaching clients at the time when we would start the call is, hey, what are you bringing into our session today?

33:42 Is there anything that And he just started just laundry list of all of the things that were sort of causing suffering and stress, you know? And just in the moment, for whatever reason, I said, well, hey, have you ever meditated? Have you ever done a meditation practice? And I'm by no means a guru, but I've selectively found meditation really helpful. And I actually led him over Zoom. I led him through a body inventory, just a simple seated... focusing on the weight of my head on my shoulders and just kind of feeling our body getting back into our body and just how cathartic that can be, how relaxing, for lack of a better word, that can be.

34:23 And so I led him through like this three, four minute exercise. And when we got done, I said, okay, how anything, what did that do or not do for you? And he said, oh my God, I feel like I can think again. I said, okay, well, that's great. And we went on to our thing. But the other interesting thing was, at our next session, he said, hey, I got to tell you something, Chris. He said, one of my technicians came in. We had a really difficult customer situation and my tech came in and was really upset. And I asked, I told him, I said, hey, are you willing to try something? And the tech said, yes. He said, okay, go close the door. And he led the technician through a body inventory, sitting in their chairs in the office across the desk from each other, And he's like, it was the most amazing thing.

35:05 And a couple days later, that technician actually came back and told him, hey, I tried that meditation thing with my wife. We were having an argument. And before we went out to dinner that night, we both sat in the living room and did a body inventory. And both of us felt like the problem we were arguing about just didn't make sense anymore. And we had a really wonderful evening together. I say that only because that's one example of how we can pursue recovery in an otherwise stressful environment. I mean, even in the cab of our truck. But how is First Onsite thinking about this? And how are you guys starting to promote recovery? the normalizing of these self-care practices or cadences of recovery.

35:50 Because we have these high output seasons or days or weeks or months Yeah. How are you guys promoting that so it's not weird when somebody decides to leave the office an hour early? Because some businesses have a really overwhelming culture of, you don't want to be seen leaving early. And so how do you normalize the opposite in an effort to create a healthier workforce? Yeah. Well, I think that's key because, I mean, let's face it, it's oftentimes it's not about leaving early, right? Because that is not something that we're taught is what you do. But I think part of it is just doing something like you did, just deciding to do it and finding courage to give yourself permission to maybe be weird.

36:37 And in your case, it wasn't met with anything but like, wow, that was awesome. And I think we do a pretty good job at being weird. In those moments. Anyone who is unlucky enough to be in a workshop with mine knows that they will have to sit in a circle or do something like that. But the more we do things like that, the more people feel like they can bring their thing. We talk a lot about human power here and this idea that everyone has a unique human power that they bring to First On Site. And part of that is an invitation to bring your whole person in terms of your other skills, passions.

37:17 I mean, just in the last week, I've learned that some of our HR business partners... are also certified yoga teachers or trauma-informed therapists or someone's a pilot. Like we have incredible talents and passions in this building outside of our titles. And I think that's another way to bring some of this in. to make sure that people feel like they have permission to bring that. If you're in a stressful situation and you have a background in breath work, bring it. That's great. You don't have to ask permission to do that. And so that's another topic that came up at this conference was how to be a change leader. And... influence versus authority, and how we all have greater influence at our fingertips than we've ever had before.

38:02 And it's really about giving yourself that permission and doing it in service to others. Boy, that is a really interesting point. I think part of the wrestling match that we have with this, when we talk about segregation between or compartmentalization between personal and professional lives, I think we're always, and I too, until you just said what you said, is we're always looking at it though from the, I'm just trying not to let it get messy. I don't want to step into that from a liability risk, HR risk. It's all the risk versus reward. The funny thing about the way that you just presented that idea was cost-effectiveness too is we actually open up a whole new layer of potential resources that can have a positive impact on our business when we stop working so hard to separate people's personal adventures with their professional.

38:59 Even myself, when you said that, I'm like, honestly, I think I've always looked at this more from a risk liability concern and not so much, but I have this whole new layer of opportunity that my team could be exposed to. Yeah. I mean, we had former pastors, people that are really like you, whether or not the various expressions are appropriate in any context. We've had pastors. We've also had other social workers and things that have come onto our team. And And to be candid, I don't think we ever really took that into account. It was a resume item. Like, oh, that's interesting. But in terms of bringing that, creating a space for them to express that or bring that past experience into the work context, we aren't as intentional about.

39:45 I think that's part of the struggle with all service companies or even just companies in general is we can get so focused on the nuts and bolts, the scope of work, the tactical needs. that we forget about how these other talents and ways can further equip our team to handle these softer... I don't even like that word. Yeah. But these more... These intangibles. Yeah. And I think that's such low-hanging fruit because everyone has something outside of their professional life that they do to help others or because they're passionate about it. And I'm quickly learning that like, I've said that about mindfulness things we can offer and who do we bring in. And I quickly have learned that we don't need to bring anyone in.

40:26 We have, we have everyone here. It's giving them the space and agency to, to show up as their whole self and share that. And it's never a mandate, but I have yet to find anyone who is, does not love to share themselves that way. Yeah. There's a quote that I wrote down from this conference that was probably the most inspiring thing I heard during the two days. And it was a man named Shane Metcalf. He's the chief people officer at a company called 15.5. And he was talking about this idea of people being able to contribute in the ways they want to. And he said, I hope that people can develop, grow, and contribute here beyond their wildest dreams.

41:09 And I love that so much because I think we all want to contribute. And especially in our industry, we are all helpers in some way. We're problem solvers and helpers. And when we are invited to bring another part of ourselves that maybe isn't seen... I think that's deeply fulfilling. You say that. Here's the first thought that comes to my mind, Jenny, is what is the likelihood of us doing a better job almost stewarding hobby or interest groups within our companies? We see just the wild use of... I'm going to sound like an old guy here. Like messaging boards. I think about Reddit. The entire structure of that organization is a bunch of specialty-focused groups.

41:52 specialty interest groups. And it's massive. I mean, we have kids that that's their primary community and mode of communication. What would it look like if our organizations got more intentional about kind of filling out a questionnaire from people like, oh, I'm into bow hunting. I'm into fishing. I'm into rock climbing. I'm into... Whatever, right? And then what would it be like to ask that person, hey, you know what, when we did this survey, there was 12 people in our company that are really into hiking and backpacking. Hey, would you have any interest? And maybe every, you know, maybe it's once a month or once a quarter, would you be willing to lead a backpacking trip or something. It's like, oh my gosh, because the way you just set the stage for it was, this person's being honored and valued in their personal interest.

42:38 And we're saying, that's part of you that we like as well. Would you be willing to leverage or share that with other team members? And then the peer support and connection that would come from that would be bonkers. I mean, that's what creates belonging. Yeah. And... Obviously, part of shaping culture is having shared values and things that we share in our DNA. But I also think a big part of culture building is exactly what you just described. It's giving people the freedom to self-organize around things they care about. And we don't all have to be into hiking as a company for you all to do that. There might be a cooking club on... You have a team's channel for it or...

43:22 This is the kind of place where you can do that. And we support that. And we're not going to stress out that suddenly everyone's hiking and cooking instead of doing their work. It's not that, right? But it's recognizing and seeing our people as whole beings who have many different interests and passions. And if they can share those with their peers, that's going to make this a place that... they feel like they belong at. Oh, I love that. One of the things that you had mentioned earlier was just this, I mean, I was going back to that rest recovery piece. And you were just talking about like, oh, the example was, if we have a light day, let's step into that and do something with it, right? Or we see a storm coming, right?

44:02 Those teams in Florida right now know that pedal is not coming off the floor for a while. Right. But inevitably, there will be a calm. There will be some kind of reprieve between phases. Something's going to happen. It's like teams, if you're in that right now, what can you proactively be thinking and being prepared to do for your team so that you can take advantage of those lulls that come? Because I hear what you guys are saying and it's true. It's not a matter as simple as somebody wants to leave a little bit early because the day got hard. That's not what we're saying here. Yeah. It's being intentional, like the word proactive. That was my word for today. Like that says a lot.

44:43 Oh, I was just going to give one example. What do you think about this? Like does this, and I mean, don't like make me feel good about myself, but honestly, is this far enough, right? Yeah. I've seen, and at times it was me, but I've had a MIT manager or team lead be really good about prioritizing a couple times a week, meeting their team on, let's say, a real big job, bringing food. And this particular individual had a really solid sense of humor. They're just the kind of person that could get in with a group of people and eventually they're all going to be BSing and having a good laugh. And he would go and he would grab lunch. He would go meet the team at the job. They would all stop what they were doing and they would all sit down and probably lose track of time for a solid hour.

45:24 Well, it's really half hour was the normal time, blah, blah, blah. But it was an hour. It cost me some money that I had to approve for that expense. But was that guy, that individual, wasn't he doing exactly what you're talking about? There was a reprieve from the grind. And it was okay that we lost a few extra minutes in the moment. Because I think ultimately, that team went back to work better. They went back to work better, probably. Yeah. safer in some way, right? Because they recharged, which then allows them to focus on what they're doing. I mean, there's a number of things. So yes, I think it is just that. And I see the other side of the coin, right?

46:05 Well, that time could have been spent doing something else. But I think that's the greater shift. That's the greater culture shift that we're working towards is seeing the value in that extra 30 minutes and what that did for that team probably also impacted how they felt when they went home that night. Yeah. And the readiness they felt the next morning, knowing that this is the place where there's some room to breathe and connect with the people that I'm spending all day working with. Yeah. And the other thing too about that example is they may have gotten a balanced mix of nutrition in that lunch as well. Which I know it sounds funny to say it, but I spent enough time in the field with our techs and with our operations crew like...

46:50 it is largely fueled by cigarettes and Red Bulls and the go-go taquitos from 7-Eleven. And not because people don't care about their health per se. It's not talked about, not prioritized in our industry. And some of it feels like it's just by demand. Like, I have nine minutes. I'm going to go... I got to stop here at 7-Eleven on the way to my next job. And I just got to grab something. Yeah. It's just fuel. It's just calories, which of course, I mean... most of us sort of know better that those kind of calories don't actually give us great fuel, but it's just by necessity. And so I think there was a lot going on there. And what I'm also hearing, I think, us talk about is thinking about the extra payroll time, the extra two and a half hours of payroll or whatever that constituted for the company as more of an investment that we can reliably see an ROI from.

47:41 So that PM or that estimator or whomever that was having that hangout with the guys at break time of us teaching our leaders to leverage those kind of investments. Exactly. Giving them the bandwidth to make that field judgment and say, Okay, I'm going to give these guys an extra half hour. I'm going to use it. I'm going to feed them. I'm going to spend, let's just call it $200 of company money to facilitate that experience for that crew. Yeah. And I know it's going to give me these other things. I know reliably, the guys are probably going to work better because it's the best meal they've had all week in the middle of the day. They're going to sleep. They're going to feel like the company likes them just a little bit more.

48:21 Yeah. That it's more... They're going to subconsciously probably feel some level of new loyalty to the company. All these positive outcomes. And the extra 30 minutes of sitting on their ass and having a good chat and bullshitting with their friends at work... has its own sort of mental health kind of fit. Yes. And learning to think about it that way. Yes. And in order for leaders to feel empowered to make those decisions, that's where we have to start to operationalize language that tells them this is okay. So as an example, we have core values. And when we started, they were bigger ideas that I think maybe were met with some ambiguity.

49:03 What does sense of urgency really mean? What does accountability really mean? What does that look like? And what we're doing now is really breaking that down into behaviors. We talked about this last time, I think. And beneath the accountability value, we have a bullet and this has been a draft form, but it's all about understanding the importance of rest and recharge so that we can bring our best. So being very deliberate about putting those words in there next to accountability is We believe this has to be part of it. You have to rest and recharge in a way that feels right for you and your team. so that we can bring our very best. And it's those things that then go and influence the training we provide and how we onboard and start to establish that invisible, but felt culture and way that we do things around here.

49:55 I love that. I think we have to connect those dots. And we have to be explicit for people to know that that's okay. Yeah, that's huge. That is literally huge because I was just thinking about this one individual. And I do remember the first time they came and asked me for permission. The context there is the previous leadership would have, that was not going to happen. And so even our people, by default, probably have more instincts weighted in this direction, but they're not stepping into it because we haven't done anything intentionally to let them know that that's actually valuable and that's part of your responsibility.

50:36 If we do that, now all of a sudden, these more natural instincts that people really have to care for one another begin to get lived out. It's not like you even have to train all the ways that we... We're pretty good herd animals really by default, right? Yeah. Well, I love that distinction between not only do you have permission, but it's your responsibility. Yeah, me too. I was just talking with someone about that in the context of speaking up if you disagree with the people around you. And... I really do believe that that shouldn't just be something you're allowed to do. That should be a responsibility. We hire for cognitive diversity, right? We want people who think differently. And so we expect that you will bring your differing ideas in opposition and concerns.

51:21 And so I think when you frame it like that, people know it's not just a courtesy permission of like, do it, but it'll be frowned upon. No, do it because, That's why you're here. And I think that feels really empowering. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. All the things you guys, we've been talking about. I am always... The more and more I flex towards listening to people, asking more questions, hearing more about what drives them and the special sauce that they're bringing to the industry, their company, the way they manage people, whatever, is I just keep realizing that once you step into the role of a formal leadership position, I think so many of us underestimate the responsibility we have to continue being learners.

52:09 Because so many people that have started small companies, moved up in the ranks from different tech skills or levels or whatever is... We take this title on, we want the pay increase, we want the title recognition, we want the authority, but I think what we forget is the heavy, heavy weight of proactively thinking about the impact of our words, our actions, our decisions on the rest of the group. It always seems to come from this perspective of what you're doing for me. You're performing or not performing. Are you valuable or not valuable?

52:50 All these things, which don't hear me wrong. Those are accurate ways to measure performance and contribution. But we always, I think we go light on the responsibility that we have. Because I'm in my mind right now, I'm hearing so... And this isn't fact. But my gut assumption is there's a lot of blue-collar leaders right now that are thinking about their business and going, Oh my gosh, that sounds like way too much work. I don't even know where to start or how I'm going to do those things. And there's part of me that just wants to say, just like they would tell one of their downline people, Suck it up, buttercup, because it's the job. You better figure out how to get that shit done. And figure out you either need to hire it, you need to partner with somebody.

53:33 But these are non-negotiables, right? You're a leader. Yeah. Yeah, but to me, what I'm also hearing you say is, it's this issue of self-leadership. In order to normalize that self-care is part of the cadence, and we want everybody to be at their best, so do what you need to do to be at your best, which could mean a whole variety of things, including a body inventory in the front seat of your cab of your truck. But it's that self-leadership piece of modeling. I think that's one of the biggest things that as in many companies, and it's a good goal is to promote up from within. We see a technician who's got some what we think is leadership capacity. They've got technical prowess.

54:14 They seem to be a decent team builder. We elevate them up. But that's the thing we never train on is how important the modeling aspect of leadership is. That if I can be that leader that's barking the orders, that's telling the vision... But then in actual how I'm conducting myself and leading myself and caring for myself is projecting a completely different standard. And I'm physically not caring for myself. Emotionally, I'm out of control and unhinged. I'm unpredictable in how I react to certain situations. But then I'm asking my team to be thoughtful. proactive in their leadership.

54:54 I'm asking them to mentor their people because that's the latest buzzword on the book I read. But I'm not stable inside myself. That seems to be a big disconnect. What are you doing, Jenny? We know that in your position, you're having a lot of up the organizational chart conversations about this stuff, right? So along the same line of thinking, what are you saying to people? How is that being influenced amongst your C-suite and your leadership teams about this component? Well, I mean, I think a lot of it is just how we show up each day with one another and the types of conversations we have. And we have a lot of huggers.

55:35 Like, we hug each other and that's... We've established that as the norm. And then you know who that's maybe not in their comfort zone and that's okay too. But I think it's... At that level, it's a lot of just how we show up and the types of conversations we have with one another and how familiar we really are with each other's lives. I think... It's not policy. It's just behavior. It's how we are and how we support one another. And I think with the broader organization, it comes back to modeling and making people feel like they have permission to do the same. I don't think any of the stuff we're talking about can ever be like a checklist or a handbook thing.

56:24 do some of these things that you think are needed in the moment. And yeah, I think courage is a big part of it because it is courageous. Yeah. Do you feel like, I think maybe as we get kind of close to landing the plane here, do you have any words of advice? And again, it's like, you're part of a really large organization, but you have context for it. Your large organization is made up of a bunch of branches. And those individual branches are about the size of your average restoration companies around the world, right? If you were to just thinking about this relationship to recovery, this relationship to uncompartmentalizing our personal professional lives in a healthy way, give me your perspective.

57:07 What would you tell somebody that's running the small average size restoration company? What's the return on investment into this education, this learning, and maybe even the money? Why are they doing it? What are you seeing the actual proof in the pudding, right? Why are they doing these things? Why should they be doing these things? Well, I think one thing I would point to is engagement. And we do happen to measure engagement every year. We do a survey and we have seen our data move in a really positive direction in spite of the pandemic and all these other things. That is one data point. But we know that engaged employees, that impacts the business, right? In a positive way. So there is ROI in that sense.

57:49 But then I think in a really simple sense, it's also just what you feel when you walk in each day. And there was a friend of mine, Dewey Freeman, who was on a previous podcast of mine. We talked about that disconnect when someone walks into a meeting and their energy doesn't match their words. And just the toxic effect of that, it can throw off the whole meeting, right? Because you know something's not right, but that's not what their words are saying. And it's just hard to really accomplish anything because they're not really pleasant. versus I think Chris, you had mentioned earlier, checking in. What's up? What are you bringing in to the room with you today? Like what? I forget how you phrased it, but it was perfect.

58:30 It was kind of just letting everyone just spend a couple seconds just checking in and kind of unloading maybe stuff that you just don't want to bring to that meeting with you. But to get to say it out loud allows you to then be more congruent with how you're showing up. It's, it doesn't have to be this massive investment. And you don't need an engagement survey to know that it's working. It's just, it comes back to those spaces. Making space, holding space, finding space. Yeah. Remembering to do that is one of the most powerful things that anyone can do that just interrupts the hamster wheel for a second. Yeah. I love it. There is one more thing that relates to this idea of grit and resilience that I just want to throw out there.

59:13 And maybe we... continue talking about that another time, but just to plant the seed. So we talked about the role of recovery and bouncing back. But I think a big part of resilience is also our openness to growth and our openness to evolution when there's a lot happening around us, transformation, change. And I think we can either have this tendency to freeze and resist or, Or we can move with it. And I love the Japanese martial art Aikido. They have this concept of blending that I love in this kind of idea because it's how do we blend with the changing environment around us rather than just meet it with force and resistance, which we're going to be the ones most impacted by in a not so good way if we just resist.

1:00:03 But if we move with it, then we are actually open to being changed in that process and growing. And I do think that's a big piece of resilience because everything's always changing around us. And we can either stand still and be knocked over or find ways to gently move with it, even when it's big and scary. That is an entire podcast. And I got totally amped when you brought that concept up because here's a reality of the world that we live in right now is Chris and I are normally hired by companies that are intentionally about to go into transition. They want to grow.

1:00:43 They want to develop. They want to establish something different. What has been is no longer going to be. And the biggest pain point for a lot of these organizations is inevitably, not everyone continues to play the game. They just... Yep. Something happens, right? So here, I'm going to offer you... I'm going to pitch something here and just tell me yes and it'll be fine. I would like to, if you're open to it, can we get you back on the show sooner than later and record a show specifically around this topic? Yeah. Even if we punt the release just a little bit, just timing-wise, I want to get your perspective on this. I think this is mission critical.

1:01:25 Yeah. Here's the one... I'm getting all preachy now, Jenny. You got me fired on this. One of the things that all of us have talked quite a bit about is this idea that we know there's a changing of the guard that's happening. There is a new generation of leaders stepping into these companies that are buying and starting companies in our industry. And with that, change is inevitable. And there's going to be people on our teams that they're going to get swept up in this. Change is inevitable. This is... Are you guys open to that? Yeah. I'm totally open. And I... I agree this has so many more layers to it. And yeah, there's a lot to dig into here, but it is a part of resilience.

1:02:08 And so I just needed to complete the framework, if you will, to be continued for sure. Because there's a lot there. That's sweet. Okay. Well, we got commitment. You're coming back. So guys, thanks for hanging out with us. Jenny. Yeah. Thank you. You're a jewel. We appreciate you being on the show. Yeah, absolutely. Always good to talk to you. You've got other stuff going on that people can access, right? Even if you don't work with First On Sight, where can people start to hear some of the vision, concepts, and things that you're really focusing on? Yeah. I mean, I think a great spot is our podcast, First Insight, is where we talk about some of these bigger ideas that maybe are more aspirational for where we're going.

1:02:49 But I think that's a great way to tune in. I'm always open to people just reaching out and shoot me an email. Because I don't always have time to... I don't blog or anything like that. But I love connecting and sharing and being inspired by others. And so, yeah, always a resource. Cool. Right on. And I would suggest it, guys. This industry is changing quickly and we need to upgrade our tool set to deal with it appropriately and steward it well. And Jenny, for all accounts, is an absolutely thought leader for us in the kinds of things that they're focusing on and developing within their organization. The fact you'd share your time is super beneficial for all of us. So appreciate it. Thanks for joining us, guys. We'll see you on the next one.

1:03:30 Thank you, guys. All right, everybody. Heath, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart & Boots. And if you're enjoying the show, but you love this episode, please hit follow. Formally known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.