Ep 19 - The Changing Game Of Estimating Feat: Actionable Insights

0:02 Welcome back to another episode of the MRM Podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brandon. Join us as we discuss business, life, and legacy. It's business time. Hey, brother. We got a good show today, man. I am super stoked. We actually booked this one five, six weeks ago, and I've been looking forward to it on the horizon ever since. I know. I'm absolutely stoked. We'll let the cat out of the bag immediately. So the boys from Actionable Insights are here. We've got Watley, their founder. And we've got Seth, the executive director. And what's really fun about these guys is that their capacity to nerd out is pretty phenomenal. I mean, they dive into Xactimate and the principles behind it, the nuance behind that tool of the trade in ways that it is pretty phenomenal.

0:46 However, they do communicate it in a way that the layman, if you will, can take it in. The other thing I also appreciate is, and I think it'll hopefully it'll come out in the show here, is these guys are not just Xactimate Matterport experts. We get into some of the services that Actionable offers, but I mean, these guys are really business savvy when it comes to our industry. And so we're excited to maybe go on some rabbit trails with them. And so they got a lot to offer besides just what Actionable does. And I think one of the things I'm excited about, we research all of Googling them and all that kind of stuff. And in my research, I saw something on Watley's LinkedIn profile that I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is sort of another interesting perspective on him.

1:34 I mean, both of these guys are culture nuts. I mean, they're both really serious about company culture. And there's some fun tidbits that I plan on grilling them about. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The one thing that we can say across the board, and I've heard you say this, not just in our communication, but even talking with some of our clients and stuff. The stuff that Actionable Insights does, the training that they provide, the resources that they're giving us as contractors, this is high level, very detailed, very effective stuff. And at the end of the day, super cutting edge. Mm-hmm. These guys are always thinking about what does the future hold for us. And we're excited to get into that, obviously.

2:14 But high-level thinkers, very strategic, great communicators, all in all, just great men to have in your sphere of influence. And we are really excited to dive into this conversation. Okay, guys. Hey, thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedules to join us for the show. We really appreciate you being here. We're excited for today's conversation. Absolutely. We appreciate the opportunity. And thank you for all of the kind words in the intro. You guys do a great job setting up your hopes for success. I guess it's on us to make sure that we fulfill that promise. Hey, as long as you take it super seriously and it weights heavily on you, the entire conversation will be just fine. Okay. Got it. Perfect.

2:54 So I think where I want to start out is Brandon and I were doing our usual snooping online for guests. So we're checking out your LinkedIn profile and Googling all the juicy bits about you guys. And one of the things that jumped out at me is I felt like, well, one, you guys have an eclectic background. Both of you have done a number of different things. in addition to your careers in restoration. Seth, I noticed we've got some shared insurance background. And actually, at one point, I was a registered rep. So I think, Watley, you and I even have a little bit of shared experience there. So that's kind of cool. I'm going to start with Watley though. So your company, Emergency Packout Co., in your description on LinkedIn, it says, I do my very best to ensure our team members earn a hug or a hug equivalent from our policy holders by the end of each project.

3:43 And so I want to hear about that because to me... As an innocent bystander, we've referred a lot of our customers to actual insights. But the brand image that you guys occupy in my head is just very disciplined, very professional, very sophisticated. You guys take great care, even in your social media posts and stuff. It's just very well done, very well executed. And so then this touchy-feely description on your LinkedIn profile, I'm like, Man, I need to know more about this guy. And I guess I'm curious how that love for people plays into Actionable Insights today and what Actionable Insights is.

4:25 And if you could draw that connection for us and give us a little bit of your origin story too. Okay. Fair enough. As it relates to care for people, we all want to build a brand. Restore is always going to want to build a brand where we show our clients how much we care. But that's not going to happen credibly unless that happens internally first. And so when we were founding Emergency Pack Outgo six years ago... Dan Smith and I were sitting around. We're like, okay, so what do we want for a mission statement and a vision statement? Because we've all understood through our business classes, etc. That's important. SWOT analyses and mission statement and vision statement. And the struggle I had with that exercise, this being my fourth entrepreneurial venture at that time, I'm like...

5:05 All those flowery languages I used in the past, maybe that's something I could recite, but that never distilled its way through the ranks. So we wanted to have something that kind of encapsulated not necessarily what we did, but why we are doing it. And it would build internally, which would personify with our being able to really... provide outsized value to our accomplished policyholders. And so I was driving home one night, called my business partner. And I'm like, what do you think about this for a load start? I'm like, what if we just organize all activities around at all ranks of the company around getting a hug from the policyholder by the end of that claims lifecycle?

5:48 Yeah. And he's a man's man, right? Former Army colonel. I didn't think he'd go for it, gentlemen, right? But he paused for a moment. He's like, you know what? I think this could work. And we adopted that. And then our employee number one, Stephanie Kreitz, just embraced that. Absolutely. And I think she holds that so near and dear. And it's something that lives on well beyond Dan and I. I mean, it's just got its own energy. And so I observe when I'm in the back of the warehouse and the crews are going out, our warehouse manager, they say it in a genuine way. It's not contrived. It's like, go earn the hug. Did you earn the hug when they get back? Or go earn the hug. And it seems as though...

6:29 that has kept us on track in all elements of our business. And if our technician, lead technician, project manager, if they're not engaging activities that would result in earning a hug from our policyholder, then they know in their heart that they're off track. And so then it guides them back towards doing the right thing. And the hard thing and the right thing, we found, are typically the same thing. And you want something... that these folks at all ranks can rally around. I think we accomplished it there with that Lodestar. That DNA seems to have also been worked into Actionable. But it should be stated, Chris, that Actionable predates emergency PAC outcome.

7:13 So I founded Actionable three years before EPC was ever created. a California LLC. Oh, wow. Gotcha. Okay. Maybe it was actionable DNA. Yeah. After all. I think one of the important concepts there is that importance of culture within an organization. When everyone has that guiding star, that north star, the load star, they have that mantra that they can repeat. It's not a mission value statement with A, B, C, D, E, with every alphabet, beta word, something like that. It's an easy thing to do. And I've heard Stephanie and her team talk about this. They were the ones that actually introduced me to this concept about why do we want our employees to earn a hug?

7:53 Their general sentiment is the money on a claim will take care of itself. In some way, we've got people that estimate an invoice, we've got collections, we've got project managers, right? They all have their jobs and they're going to do their jobs well. If everyone's doing their job with the idea of, I want to get a hug at the end of this, then generally the job is going to work out and work out for itself. And you can see that in their Google reviews and whatnot. I think it's fascinating that Emergency Packout Co., as a contents company, has almost zero negative reviews. And why do I think that's fascinating? Contents we've seen become a more important part of every claim. The property insurance ecosystem was not designed for banks and mortgage companies to own every home.

8:34 But that is kind of where we're at now. And so people don't actually own their homes, but they own the contents within the home. Therefore, content has become more and more important. And people have more stuff. They have nicer stuff than they used to in the 70s, right? Yeah. If you can get the contents right, you can take care of the stuff that people actually care about. The rest of the claim will generally go smoother. It's, Just that simple. They don't like their walls being cut up and fire damage and water damage. But if you can at least assure them that, hey, we'll make sure your stuff gets taken care of, everything else will take care of itself. So that drive behind a hug is great. And that's something that that culture, that idea of the mantra that everyone can believe in is something that I've tried to bring to Actionable Insights as best as I can as executive director and leader of the team here.

9:19 Because you can't do great work without it. I picked up... We really, while you and I refined this idea when we read or we're audiobook guys, we listen to a lot of books, Competing Against Luck by Clayton Christensen. In that book, we learned a lot about the concept of the job to be done. If you're going to create a market, a product, a service, you need to identify the job to be done here. And for the contents company, it was, we need to take care of people's stuff. We need to take care of the people. They've got chaos. They're working with an adjuster and a contractor and all these parties. They may not be in their own home. Let's at least just take care of the stuff that they care about. And then everything will go from there. So that was how they put into words their job to be done such that the team can get motivated and know what track am I supposed to follow every day.

10:03 One of the things, this marries so well with one of the mantras that Brandon and I, I mean, we've said it so many thousands of times now is the way we make people feel is just as important, if not more important than the nuts and bolts of the service that we're offering. Yeah. How we make people feel in the process. And that's what I hear when we talk about earning a hug. That's that meta behavior that's happening throughout the entire claims process. How do you guys apply this at Actual Insights, Seth? Because you're generally providing very technical training services and stuff like that. How do you earn a hug from your clients at Actual Insights? Yeah, that's a good one. I don't fly into many contractor shops or carrier leadership organizations and go for a hug over a handshake.

10:46 It'd be a little strange interaction, especially... Now, did you prior to COVID? No, no, still no, no, nothing like that. I have to identify my own job to be done. Actionable is a really unique organization. We are a 501c6 nonprofit organization. We're a trade association, essentially, a steward of the property insurance ecosystem. Our board is made up of contractors and adjusters. We are as neutral as we can be when the content we put out around estimating and invoicing. Our goal is to define or at least start the conversation to define what is reasonable and customary when invoicing in this industry. Most people are self-taught or peer-taught in this industry when it comes to the estimating softwares that exist.

11:29 And so what is my job to be done? I'm not a consultant. That's not what our organization does. I'm not a contractor. I'm not an adjuster. I'm an educator. I'm a teacher. My job to be done is to help people understand things that may have historically frustrated them in the past, or how to really present what you're doing in a way that everyone around you understands why you're doing it the way you're doing it. estimating in restoration used to be as simple as grabbing a yellow piece of paper, writing three line items on it, putting a price next to it, handing it over and getting paid. But now we have thousands, tens of thousands of line items and various softwares that you have to master and learn how to present And then you have the industry around it with third-party administrators, TPAs and program works.

12:14 That's a new development in the last 10 years where you now have another layer of justification to get through in order to get paid fairly for the hard work that you're doing as a contractor. So what is my job to be done? My job is not to come in and tell people what they should be doing. My job is to be an educator and show them what's possible. Show them the best practices. If I can create a learning environment, that's a big part for me. I'm fairly young, I think, for the industry, relatively. I'm often teaching people twice my age that have been using the software for as long as I have been alive, which can be a weird situation to be in. No pressure. Yeah. Like, hey, sorry that you've been doing it for 30 years. You've been doing it wrong. And here's why.

12:54 And that's really hard, that cognitive dissonance, guys. So often when we're like, hey, you are leaving this warranted line item out every time you are installing a countertop. And they resist it. It's like subdex. No, you can't charge for it. I'm like, there's a line item for it. Are you including plywood underneath? Yeah, okay. Right. That is really difficult. Sometimes we've taught shops that are doing $80 million and have forgotten. like they used to, but does charge for project management hours. And we're outlining like the difference to your bottom line is fantastic. And that's going to resonate value and deliver value to all elements of the business.

13:34 Actionable is all about the bottom lines. There are a lot of coaches, consultants that focus on top line and top lines hard and it's really important. There's a lot of skill sets that need to be developed around that. But as teachers, the bottom line, never top line, right? And that's where I'm just mystified how often there's an inherent resistance, right? To like, wait a minute, no, you can't charge for project management hours. But Chris, back to your point of like, well, how do we earn the hug? Just did this morning, man. There was a post last night on Xactimate Ninjas where we have nearly 12,000 members and this probably pretty green estimator is like, why are these project management hours keep getting denied by these carriers?

14:23 And you could just see they were passionately frustrated and sad. Yeah. And I posted our insight sheet for residential project management hours, which shows the case law to support why it would be warranted. It links out to the Xactimate white paper and it shows where there's deficiencies in the line items that really create space for that being warranted. And includes an F9 note that pragmatically outlines like two hours per day, four or five days, right? That's something... that adjuster can approve. And so we got that approved with our board. That wasn't easy for Harrison and I to get our board, the carrier side, to approve. Everything we publish, guys, gets approved by both sides of the claim.

15:04 I think that's what adds credibility to it. It's one thing. It's like restorers are like, this is how you should bill. But if I can't get national, general, all-state here to come to the table, then like... really, what is it? It's just one restorer's opinion. Yeah, there's no such thing as a one-sided invoicing standard. Right. Yeah, right. So anyhow, what was really cool was Derek Stone posted only a couple hours ago, and he's like, dude, Wattley's right. The Actionable crew has been out here, flown out to their shop. This is Sweet Shop Midwest twice. And he's like, we've built on a core with this and we have excellent luck. So it does take some degree of sophistication and a pragmatic approach to getting paid for it, but it's absolutely possible.

15:45 And I felt loved. I was like, man, it works. And that's my hug, man. When I can text my fellow restorers and be like, hey, you guys getting paid for Matterport? And they're like, dude, every time, all the time. And I'm like, boom, it's real. That feels super good. That's the compensation I care about. Dude, are you guys okay if we hang there for a minute? Because I think the whole estimating thing in general... So really quickly, just to make sure, because there's probably one or two people that don't fully comprehend what AI is doing, what actionable insight does. So Seth, can you give us the two-minute version of exactly what you guys do? And then what I'd love to do is circle back to this idea of estimating and the Let's call it negotiation between the contractor and the carrier because I know it's just a massive frustration point.

16:32 I think there's fear in there. There's all sorts of things. So I want to tackle that with you guys. But go ahead, Seth. Yeah. Actionable Insights, simply put, is a 501c6 nonprofit association. Our mission statement, right? The thing that we want everybody to be able to repeat when they work here. Actionable Insights is a foundation that exists to preserve the health of the property insurance ecosystem and clarify globally recognized billing standards. Okay. How did this all start? Actionable Insights started as monthly and quarterly meetings amongst contractors and adjusters locally in San Diego. contractors started to see carriers use phrases like, that's a tool of the trade, that's a cost of doing business, or my personal favorite, we don't pay for that. And Wadley at the time, he had a full service GC shop.

17:16 How many estimators did you have, Wadley? We had five. And what general profession were they from? They were all attorneys. Yes. So I can't think of a better party to put together an estimate and justify its position than a bunch of lawyers working in the restoration industry. But these lawyers identified these phrases that carriers started using, and it became harder and harder for contractors doing good work to get paid fairly for that work. It should be said, we never sued anybody, gentlemen. It was, I suppose, implied enough that the outcomes were positive enough where that never needed to happen. It was just arbitraging the fact that the economy was really soft in 2008, and that we were graduating, say...

17:59 10,000 JDs of which 80% of those went on to become Esquires. They were barred in the given state, state of California. And there was only job for maybe 4,000 of those 100,000 individuals. And so I was able to pick up a bunch of junior attorneys that didn't have a place to land and just kind of fed on itself. And what we recognized is those individuals had been trained for years to what they're submitting to the carrier was reasonable and customary and just fortuitously came together. But that served as a foundation of what Harrison's running with our curriculum, with the Insight Sheet database, so on.

18:41 That's all born out of those really talented professionals from KIC Restoration. I love that. So talk about the board a little bit. Sorry, Seth. Okay, 501c is crazy. So nonprofit. But then there's a board that's got a unique structure to it. Talk to us a little bit about that and why that's valuable for someone, for instance, that's getting training from you guys. Absolutely. So a 501c6 has no equity. Nobody owns Actionable Insights. There's no equity here. My board is completely volunteer-driven, meaning nobody gets paid. Currently, we would like it to be a paid position at some point. But when you are in a startup environment, in which we, at least internally, we still feel like we're in a startup environment struggling and trying to get COVID and whatnot, you want to be able to work with everybody in this industry.

19:27 Actionable proudly doesn't really have any enemies. when you have contractors and adjusters on your board of directors, you're able to start the conversation and have the conversation at high levels with sophisticated people about what's reasonable and customary in this industry. In order to work with contractors and carriers, we decided to pursue a route of being a 501c6. I mean, the actual foundation name, if you go look at the IRS paperwork, is Actionable Insights Forum. The idea was to start a conversation about what's reasonable. The first meetings of Actionable Insights were 30 contractors and adjusters in San Diego talking over beers about how to invoice an exacting.

20:07 Now you get a bunch of contractors and adjusters in a garage, drinking beers. Not everybody has the best idea in the industry. But... They think they do. Yeah. They think they do. Especially at the moment. It's brilliant. Yeah. But when you start at the ground level, and then you can start to elevate those conversations, and you bring those conversations to successful people in this industry, people that want to give more than they take. I would say that's one of the driving missions of every board member that we instill in them. actionable goal is to give more than it takes. And everyone that participates within our ecosystem, we're hopefully is making good money, growing their business, doing what they're doing in their for-profit businesses. You have to have something to give something, right? So those are the type of individuals we try to appoint to the board.

20:50 Harrison, those are great general principles, but I want to answer the question really directly that Brandon asked. It's like, how in the world are we going to get a 501c6? It's really simple. Yeah. We had come to the assumption that we could never develop an invoicing standard if it was just from one side of the claim. So we needed to invite carriers to the conversation. So we had some relationships at the carrier level. And we said, hey, would you like to be a part of this? And they said, well, let me run it up the chain. And then the chain said, well, you can't participate in anything that would be a for-profit entity. It would have to be a non-profit entity. And so we're like, okay, well, we know that we need to get carriers to the table in an effort for this to have staying power. And in order to get carriers to the table, it needs to be a nonprofit.

21:31 And then fortunately, I had a relationship with the deputy attorney general who's still on the board today, Tim Vanden Heuvel. And I'm like, Tim, what do I do with this? Like, is it a trade organization? So on. He's like, oh, it's 501c6, man. I'll help you out. And we just knocked out the paperwork ourselves and like found it. Thanks to Tim and got it through. But it was really because we were trying to get carriers to the table as opposed to just a bunch of restorers talking about how unfair life is. Yeah, which is powerful on a lot of different levels. So guys, here's the thing that we see all the time. And obviously, you guys are seeing this. But it has turned into my perception is that the relationships that we have out in the field are very different than they were even five years ago, let alone 10 plus years ago.

22:17 And it seems like conversation isn't happening anymore. Just two professionals... looking at a situation and saying, how do we put something together so that we come out on the other side with a client that's been well taken care of and that they're happy about the outcome? And you as a contractor can do this again tomorrow. You're going to have the assets and the resources and the lights on to do just that. Again, this is the perception. And I know that when we talk to a lot of contractors right now, especially with TPA, momentum, and all the different things, this is just such a... frustrating thing right now for all of us hearing the statements like, we don't pay for that and all those things.

22:57 As far as this conversation from what you guys are seeing, because you're out meeting with contractors all the time, you're hearing the stories, you're providing these really awesome training on how to empower them to be better at it. But what are you hearing? Is this fear factors? Are these things like, is it carriers preaching certain... agendas that's then driving the behaviors of adjusters in the field? Is it contractors fearful to step up to the plate or push on certain things because they're afraid they're not going to get paid? I mean, you get it, right? You kind of see where I'm coming from there. What do you guys see? I think things are changing, Brennan. So think about when you're walking across the street, say a crosswalk. It's busy, think New York, right?

23:38 And you're on your phone and maybe the counterparty walking towards you is on your phone and you bump into one another. Unless you're a complete jerk, what do you do? You pause, you look that person in the eye, say, oh, I'm so sorry, I apologize, right? There's a certain intimacy when you're walking past somebody or you're in their personal space. Yeah. But that's very different than in our vehicle. And that same person cuts us off or, heaven forbid, hits my bumper, right? We have a very different visceral reaction. I think it's possible that what you're talking about 10, 12 years ago, what I used to remember where I was like, hey, I'm friends with the adjusters. We're trying to sort this out. The policyholder, it's our mutual client.

24:19 We've lost that. Why? Why? Well, two reasons. One, you've got TPAs that have captured 60% of the claim volume in the property insurance ecosystem. And so now I'm at least in a car. I'm not meeting my staff adjuster on site, the individual who has the power to write the check right then and there. So now there's more distance. Moreover, there's geographical distance. What happened to State Farm? I knew every single State Farm adjuster in Southern California by name. They knew me. We did great business together. And five years ago, maybe seven, they got an opportunity to relocate as a 1099 contractor to Texas. And basically, they were all more or less fired after 22 years of great service.

25:03 Like that makes it harder for my team now, those on the front lines, to develop credible, lasting relationships with adjusters when they're three states away. And this is all made worse by the average 10-year for an adjuster right now in property insurance in the continental United States is only 28 months. That's the average. So that accounts for people that have been in the business for 10 and 15 years, right? So what does that turnover look like? It's so difficult for an adjuster who came out of Chico State, for example, who's never swung a hammer in their life to empathize with why a shop that's doing $100 million a year has an overhead that exceeds chucking a truck down the street and why their pricing might be a little bit different.

25:47 They have no concept or how easily a project can go from profitable... to non-profitable. Like if you've never swung a hammer and you've never been out there, you don't know what a knife's edge that every single project is on, especially for the repair side of the house. So it's these fundamental challenges that are creating challenges. And what Harrison's curriculum, and he's done an amazing job designing and delivering, is organized about how do we overcome that? So with that understanding... he's developed this curriculum that's like, all right, who's our audience? And he constantly asks, who is the audience for your estimate? When you submit an estimate, who is the true audience? Right?

26:27 Yeah. I mean, Harrison, walk them through that whole scenario for knowing your audience and really putting the adjuster in a position to approve. Historically, we think the audience is the person we're working with. It's either the TPA reviewer that's commenting, it's the adjuster on site, staff adjuster that's what I'm working with. That's not really the audience. Everyone has a boss. And an adjuster, when they approve a claim, they need to take a contractor's estimate, present it to their boss, and explain, here's why I'm going to pay this estimate. Here's why I'm going to pay this claim with this estimate. The better position you put the person you're working with in to defend your estimate to their boss, the more likely you are going to settle that claim. So there's just a slight change in perspective in that we've historically been able to work one-on-one, direct relationships, establish relationships, and see the same person.

27:16 Now you're working with someone far away. It's different every time. One of the other questions I ask in this line of questioning is, how often do you start a claim with one adjuster? And three weeks later, it's somebody new that gets transferred. They're on vacation. This happens all the time. So if you can write an estimate and present a claim that somebody who's never seen this job before... never walked it, never been there, doesn't know the policyholder. If they have an opportunity to understand what you've done and that they can approve it, then you're setting yourself up for success. But, and unfortunately, that requires a little bit more work up front. When it comes to documenting, when it comes to the technology that you use to document, when it comes to the F9 notes, the time and detail you put into your F9 notes as additional justification in your estimates, F9 notes weren't necessary 20 years ago like they are now.

28:04 Generally, people knew how to build. Contractors and adjusters both worked in the field. And you had a relationship based on your experience in the field. Now it's a much more technical administrative role in many ways where that mutual understanding has gone away. I look at it this way. Contractors have the burden to educate those that work with them as to why they need to do what they do and why they should be paid what they should be paid for that process. Not everybody got into the industry of teaching and educating. Your typical estimator is like, I don't want to teach everybody I work with all the time. They should just get it. Let me do my job and pay me. So it's just an understanding of how has the industry changed with the development of TPA work and technology and how has the industry changed How has the demographics of the people working in the industry changed, especially on the adjuster side?

28:49 And once you start to create some sympathy and empathy around the changing demographics, it gets a little easier to understand, hey, this may not be your perfect world as an estimator, but this is the world that we're in. And in order to find success within it, here's the best practices that I have that I can provide you. You figure out which one works best for you that you can incorporate into your role. See, and I think that what's cool about what you're saying is there's a level of, we can't be victims as contractors, right? And it's easy for us to slide into this. Even the biggest baddest of all of us, they're still sliding often into this position of, I'm just disgruntled about the whole thing. It's easier for me to complain about it than it is for me to understand what I need to invest in to come up with a different solution or a winning strategy.

29:33 I do appreciate the fact that when you guys talk about this kind of topic, you're not hesitant to call out the things that have changed that aren't necessarily pretty, that are having a negative impact, or at least let's say having an impact on our job as contractors. And it's requiring us to change the game. But you guys can say that very directly and unapologetically, but you don't say it from the perspective of as a victim. It's like, okay, here's the game. The game's different. So let us work with you to equip you and your teams to be able to operate in the new game. And I really appreciate that. All right, let's take a minute to recognize and thank our MitResto Mastery sponsor, Accelerate Restoration Software.

30:18 And I'm fully aware, by the way, that when I say those last two words, restoration software, that that instantly creates heartburn for some of you out there, right? Because we probably all fall into one of two camps when it comes to software. We've either cobbled together kind of a version of free website tools and spreadsheets just to make our business work, Or we're in the camp where we've adopted one of these existing restoration platforms, you know, one that has all the bells and whistles and supposedly does it all. But we can't get our team to consistently adopt it and input information to it. Yeah, and that's really where Accelerate has honed their focus. They've created a system that's simple, right?

31:01 It's intuitive, and it focuses on the most mission-critical information, i.e., guys, your team will actually use it. Let's talk about sales, right? After years of leading sales and marketing teams, the biggest trick is getting them to consistently update notes about their interactions with referral partners and clients. And the essential piece there is there's got to be a mobile app experience. And in our experience... the solutions that were previously out there were just too cumbersome and tricky to use. Yeah. Imagine guys, how your business would change if your entire team was actually consistently using the system. Do yourself a favor, go check these guys out at xlrestorationsoftware.com forward slash MRM and check out the special offers they're providing to MRM listeners.

31:54 One of the things I'm also hearing you guys talk about, though, is what it takes to be an estimator is changing. The mentality, the natural wiring, the skill set, the competency level is changing. That's going to affect what we pay. That's going to affect who we're looking for. That's going to affect all these things to include the investing in things like... training being conducted through AI, it's almost becoming to the point where it's not really optional. We need to be sending people to trade schools, almost, if you will, to something like this where we're elevating their competency level so that when they do submit their scopes, when they are submitting their estimates, they've done everything in their power to be the easy button for that approval process.

32:41 Not giving it away, the two very different things, but just making that sheet more, I guess, realistic or more supported. So talk about that a little bit. With you guys doing the traveling that you're doing, with the educating and the training that you're doing, Seth, what are you seeing in the field? What does an estimator look like? Who's that target that we're going after? That's super interesting. So one of my favorite parts, not a consultant, I'm an educator. I have seen every kind of personality that can be an estimator. You can meet the six-year-old dude that's been doing it for 30 years, knows every line in him off of memory. He's going to be a great estimator in his own way, but he's got things to work on. Then you've got the 20-year-old that's in college, maybe not.

33:23 There's a big computer that grew up with computers and whatnot, and just technology is natural. They may not have a building skill set, but they have a technology and they can understand the software well. Often what we found is you pair one of the seniors with a junior like that and you have them write estimates together, both of them get much better quickly. But you said something about what it takes to be an estimator is changing. I like to put it this way. We used to work in an industry where you needed to be on site and memorize every line item and spit it off the top of your head and write the scope on site with the adjuster right then and there. You needed to know what was in that line item so that you could talk to them on site and negotiate. We now live in a world where the entire information is in your pocket in the form of a phone. You no longer need to memorize everything.

34:04 It is more important that you know something exists and how to find it. That is what an estimator needs to prepare for with their skill set. There are over 20,000 line items in Xactimate. Even I, as someone that I like to think knows some stuff about the exact you made price list, do it's not know every line item. And often when we're speaking at a conference, somebody will come up and try to get me the gotcha question of like, hey, what line item would you use here in this situation? And what's the category and select your code? And it's like, whoa, don't have my program up. Sorry, give me a sec. The idea is know it exists, know how to find it. And that's what Actionable is doing. We are trying to build resources and content that shows people, or at least, hey, I remember Harrison said in class that there was an exact tack video about labor minimums.

34:49 He had something that he was saying about labor minimums. I don't remember exactly what it was, and I'm not in class right now, but I can at least know that it exists, and he gave me the resources to find it. That's what it takes to be an estimator these days. Know that something exists and how to find it. The importance of trade schools is another thing that I thought you touched on, If we were just at the RIA conference in Kissimmee, Florida, and they put up one of those word clouds where they say, what's the biggest problem in the industry? And this year it was hiring. Almost every single contractor client that I know of is having a hard time finding people, whether it's a technician or certainly estimators. My personal opinion, project management is going to become the most important role in this industry, one of the hardest to hire for, the ability to know how to build.

35:32 And the ability to know how to execute against time and budget is an incredibly difficult skill set to master. Because they're all 55 and older, gentlemen. I don't know. Somehow, I feel like the three of us grew up in the trades. But if you're younger than 40, it's just not happening. I don't know what happened. We all just took different routes. Yeah. Somebody threw the holy hand grenade in there and people just exited the... And they didn't even consider that that is a true career path. Yeah. And I don't know. I think it's probably one of the best platforms for rags to riches stories is to come into this industry and walk through this as a true career path. It's amazing what's available to people.

36:12 But that starts when these kids are 12 and 13 years old. And I think folks like you, with your voice, you have an obligation to make sure that we don't demonize individuals that want to come out of high school right into a trade school. And that also means people like Jeff and Ryan Moore at ATI need to step up with ATI University and really develop a credible two-year curriculum where somebody can come out after two years and make 78 grand. Anybody in the country is going to hire them. Oh, you went to ATI University for two years? Done deal, right? Like that's what this industry needs because it is a game, Brandon. The carriers keep moving the goalposts the same way that you and I would if we owned a carrier. We would keep moving the goalposts. Absolutely. This is a new line item that we don't pay for, right?

36:54 And so it's the contractor's obligation to find the new line item that they don't know about, that isn't excluded in the TPA documents, that they will, in fact. and generally have to pay for, right? That is the game. That's the free market trying to play out in a non-free market environment. And that's okay. Like playing the victim is weak sauce. Yeah. Gosh, I want to talk to those guys about that. That's a whole different dream thing. Anyways, I won't distract us with that right now. Seth, we'll come back to you, my friend. So yeah, stay on this track with us. What are we looking at for estimators? Who's the winners on this now? I don't think I can pick one person to be like, hey, your ideal estimator is 24. They've spent five years working with computers, right? That doesn't exist.

37:35 What we're seeing, look at the companies out there that are working with geospatial scanning, Matterport, DocuSketch, that are investing in computer vision. I read an article last week about assisted automation is coming to every industry in an incredible way and we are sleepwalking ourselves into it. Those that have been investing in geospatial scanning and are flying companies like Actionable Insights Out to talk about the future of the industry have been preparing for what's happening right now. When you look at the development of the industry... It's going to be important that you embrace the tools and technology that are coming. Sometimes it's self-adoption. As a contractor or a carrier, you look into technology and decide to adopt it yourself. Other times, it's mandated adoption.

38:17 It becomes a requirement to perform a geospatial scan in order to process a property insurance claim. If you don't think carriers aren't looking at companies like Matterport figuring out how they can incorporate that technology to reduce their own administrative claims costs and whatnot, you're not seeing what we're seeing. Because it's also to manage fraud, waste and abuse, right? Like Matterport's becoming the eyes and ears for the carrier. And that's the function of the IAs for the last 20 years. But I think that that might be coming, you know, overcome by events is now a contractor equipped with a Matterport camera really becomes the eyes and the ears for the carrier can't manipulate a geospatial scan.

39:00 Right, yeah. Yeah, so technology like this is what an estimator needs to adopt. In general, just you need to be prepared. The traditional method of taking a bunch of photographs, measuring everything by hand, transposing it into a sketching software, those days are minimal. It's still possible, still necessary right now during this transition, but... the unassisted sketch process and a lot of the technical hand skills of Xactimate will be alleviated over time. That's just a natural development. So what is an estimator? Estimator is somebody that's curious, primarily. I was asked as part of the R&R Ladder Award nomination to talk about my guidance for young people in this industry. And it's show up, work hard and be curious.

39:42 It's that simple. The more questions you ask, the more you learn. If you're not actively looking for education or resources, Wadley mentioned Exactimate Ninjas. It's a Facebook group that we are moderators of where 12,000 contractors and adjusters are asking questions every day about how would I sketch this? What line item would you use here? How would you justify this in Exactimate? Those are the kinds of people that will find success to me in an estimating rule. Because it's not so much about mastery and memorization. it's going to become understanding and curiosity. But I think it's going to be easier, Brandon, to hire for estimators moving forward because there are going to be digital assets that they can call on to help accelerate their learning curve.

40:25 What I have not figured out is how in the world to hire project managers that can run a repair job. How in the world do you put a training curriculum together for that? I just don't have the clarity. And what's actually odd is that there's an inverse relationship between tradesmanship and maybe attention to detail, especially as it relates to administrative tasks, right? And so your better builders really hate paperwork, okay? And whether it's paperwork or whether that's Accelerate or Encircle, they hate that too. And both of the two names I threw out there have done a lot better job to make it easier for those individuals. But let's be honest, they're still not that pumped about getting that app out. And I think that those are going to be the hardest roles to hire for or really even to train for.

41:10 I think Harrison could develop a 19-year-old kid who's good at video games into being pretty darn good at estimating by just training him up. with the Insight Sheet database, the commonly overlooked line items, being able to have access to Solidify and Zora. There are a number of tools that Harrison and his team have developed to help accelerate that learning curve. I'm not saying like zero to 60, but I'm saying like zero to 42 miles per hour in like three months. That's easier. But I'm lost. What in the world are we going to do with the fact that nobody knows how to build anymore? That's like, what are we going to do? I don't know. It sounds like ATI might be working on it.

41:52 So again, we got to talk to those guys. They're our only hope, man. That is a massive mountain to get over for certain. I think one thing, Wally, you and I have talked about, repair estimating is more difficult than mitigation estimating. There are 2,000 water mitigation-related line items that people use on an everyday basis. There are 10,000 repair line items. So even though you can know that it exists and know how to find it as a resource when estimating, it still takes time and practice to develop that mastery. So there's somebody out there, Wadley, that's going to hear, oh, you can take a 19-year-old and turn them into an estimator. And they're like, yes, not real. You can't do that. Well, you can if you cross-train like you talked about earlier.

42:32 That's how you solve it. And that's what we train to. Talk about the checklist that you developed. Yeah, we have a peer-review checklist that we often incorporate into private training engagements. Something that we developed with the group, like all the estimators that we're training. They decide what they want in their checklist. And the idea is the... Junior estimator, let's say, writes the estimate. Then they will provide their estimate and Matterport scan and that checklist to a senior. A senior will review the scans and go through the checklist to make sure that everything is included in the estimate that it should be. Not only are the seniors finding things that are helping that contractor capture all the warranted line items and getting paid fairly, they are learning from what the junior wrote. The junior is learning from what the senior provided feedback on.

43:13 And then you continue to flip that exercise so that the senior writes the estimate and the junior reviews it. If you want to take it a step further, change the teams every three to six months. Continuously have new juniors with new seniors or peer-to-peer. It doesn't always have to be junior-to-senior. It could be two excellently qualified estimators reviewing each other's work. But without structure around that review, without things like a Matterport scan, better than photos, in my opinion, to be able to look at a full job and immerse and walk through it. Yeah, for sure. Have somebody ever asked you, Hey, take a look at my estimate. See what I missed. It's not going to work unless you align their interest around their compensation. So what we used to do at KIC is we would say, all right, if we're going to give up five points to the estimator on this job, the individual who reviews that sheet, they participate of that five at say one and a half points, right?

44:03 And so you align the interest because everybody's busy, right? Chris, nobody wants to read your sheet just to read your sheet, right? That's going to be cool for like a week. Right, yeah, once. Yeah, that's never going to happen again. But if you could say like, hey, man, if you review this sheet, you're going to make an extra 900 bucks. All of a sudden that becomes interesting. And then as the owner, this is how you create systems where you continue to be less and less necessary to the outperformance of the business each and every day. Feeds on itself. I keep looking at Chris because every time he begins to say something, I'm like, I got a question. So do you guys... We were just having a conversation with someone the other day about exploring the idea from a recruiting perspective of recruiting with a remote position for estimators.

44:50 Now, for many of us, myself included, my estimators have always been part of my sales team. team in a lot of ways. They really are the ones going out on site, securing relationships, securing signatures on contracts, things of that nature. But when we see everything, for instance, that you guys are teaching folks, the Matterport usage, what a powerhouse tool that's been getting fully adopted in our industry. But now that that estimator role is different. If we're thinking capacity, if we're thinking it's hard to hire these roles, we want efficiency, we want scale, production.

45:30 It doesn't make a lot of sense to have these people running all over the woods and back when they can just look at a scan from a Matterport dashboard and really have what they need to write these sheets. What do you guys see there? What are you hearing as far as buzz about this idea? Yeah. Well, I like to prove things out before we teach and train them. And that's what's been really awesome about being a restorer and having businesses where it's a peer relationship. It's like, hey guys, this worked for me. You can come fly into San Diego, audit my financials. I will tell the staff to be open book with you. Call me on it if I'm a liar. It's like, we're not getting paid 91% of the time for Matterport scans at Emergency Packout Co. I dare anybody listen to this.

46:12 Fly in, call me on it, and we'll prove it to you. It's real. And that's where we can stand up, mic'd up in front of 400 people and be like, this is how you do it because we've actually done it. And not for a month and not twice. But since 2015, we've been doing this stuff. And so we've identified this trend towards, well, you can leverage a geospatial scan. I can keep my most expensive talent out of the field, which not only saves me money, essentially, as a restorer, It creates two more days in the week for Tim or Sally that aren't windshield time. So that's beautiful. I think non-assisted sketch is essentially dead. If you're not automating some aspect of it, you're doing it wrong. So now that's finding another day in the week, right?

46:55 So... with the same individual that used to write $1.7 million, with geospatial technology augmented by the Insight Sheet database, what we've been training to and done it successfully now for, what, five years, is those individuals are now writing at five plus million. And one of the individuals I just mentioned, Derek's doing 7.5. That's what he did last year. Right. So over at Sweet Shop, like that's incredible production, but that happens guys, because they're not out in behind a truck, but it's, it's all gonna, that's, that's one step. And we're talking about what we can see, but what I see is even like farther from that, from my perspective, and I could be wrong. But everything that could be outsourced even to AI or overseas is going to happen in our space.

47:39 And everybody that's curious enough to be listening to this podcast needs to be thinking about how they can pursue creative work and pursue work that isn't outsourceable. You're listening to this podcast because you care about your ability to provide for your family. This is going to make you better. And I encourage you every day to show up and go, are there elements of my job that could be outsourced? Are there things I could double down, triple down on that could never be outsourced? Those are the things that we should be thinking about because this is a global economy and it's happening in every industry and it's happening with geospatial scans, I think in our space and kind of ways I'm puzzled by nobody's talking about it, but it seems to occur to me that that is going to be the solution.

48:20 And that's certainly what we've seen the carriers doing with their staff, like anything they can outsource guys, they're outsourcing and they don't care where it's going. Yeah, let me add to that because what can't be automated? The human element of claims, right? Taking care of somebody. You guys started this off by asking about hugs. The human element of claims cannot be automated or replaced by artificial intelligence. And you guys were asking me, what makes an estimator? Traditionally, an estimator was somebody that had to go to the job site and sell the job to the policyholder. Then they had to be able to write the estimate. Then they had to be able to run the job. That's three very distinct skill sets that we often refer to as the unicorn. Every contractor is looking to hire a unicorn estimator when more often than not, they're already at your competition and started their own company because they got to the point where they could do it all.

49:09 What we have seen with things like geospatial scanning, 3D scanning, it offers the ability to trifurcate the traditional roles into three distinct positions. Hold on, Seth. Yeah. I have to Google that word. I appreciate your intelligence level, bro. But can you dumb that down to the guys on this side of the microphone, please? Yeah. Trifurcate. Basically splitting these three roles, sales, project management, and estimating into three different positions. We have been trying to find one person to do all three. There is a company in Florida, Rightway Construction, Josh Reynolds. We've trained their shop multiple times. Looking forward to being out there soon. He has a woman named Norma.

49:50 Norma looks like she is straight out of the 60s and 70s. Every morning, she puts the hairspray in and she walks around Florida selling jobs like I've never seen someone sell before. Because what is the clientele in Florida? Older, 70 plus, retired. When you're making a sale, you want someone to feel comfortable, heard, understood, and that you're going to take care of them. That's Norma. Norma doesn't know exactly how to build. She's not an expert in building, but she is the salesperson. She's not expected to know how to build in the way that everybody else is. She walks in, makes the policyholder feel good, gets them to sign the dotted line, gives them a card and says, Here's your project manager. Don't call me. Obviously, you can call me if you need to and you can't get a hold.

50:31 But if you're calling me, we have a problem. You need to talk to your project manager. That's the person that's going to be your contact throughout. Then all the information that she gathered, being a Matterport scan, job notes, whatever it is, that goes to a remote estimator. That estimator's job is to look at the job information and put together the estimate. They submit the estimate, they negotiate the estimate, and then they hand it off once it's approved to a project manager whose only job is to focus on project management and making sure that they're taking care of the contractor's customers at the end of the day. Sometimes in order to get to like $1 million a year, $2 million a year in revenue, you need unicorns. You need people that can put on every hat and do it all. But if you want to graduate from the $5 million, $10 million shops to get to $20, $30, $40, you need to find specialization efficiency.

51:17 And this new technology like 3D geospatial scanning has given contractors and adjusters the ability to find specialty. And one thing Watley and I talk about when we train, we've heard for years this idea of do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life. I don't really believe that. My much better, at least in my opinion, better way to say it is, do what you're great at and you'll love what you do. We naturally want to do what we're great at. Ask any estimator that's currently doing sales and estimating. They like one more than the other. They may just want to do sales, but they have to estimate because that's part of the job. They may just want to estimate, but they have to go to the job site and sell it because that's part of their current role.

51:57 So what you're seeing is a change in the opportunity that people can specialize in a particular skill set of what they're great at. And generally they're enjoying what they do more because they're doing what they're great at. And more productive. I love it. So I want to sort of dive a little bit deeper on this idea of maybe some of the soft skills involved. And you guys have this unique position where you're in constant conversations with both contractors and carriers, including adjusters, right? And I'm curious, as the role of the estimator has changed and also even just the process, right, of working with the adjuster to get estimates approved and so forth, From feedback you've gotten from adjusters, what are some things that an estimator can do in the course of doing all the appropriate technical steps, covering all the technical bases in terms of the proper F9 notes and line items and all the things?

52:51 What can they do to affect how that experience feels for the adjuster to actually build some affinity with that adjuster that they may never, ever meet in person? Great question. Yeah, yeah. I mean, when I started as an estimator in this industry, I was a program estimator specifically for nationwide claims for a contractor in San Diego. My job was to wake up every day and go to war. It was that simple. Go to war every day, fight for every line and fight for every dollar, fight for what they say they should pay you, even though they say they're not going to pay for it. And that's a terrible mindset to go to work in. It was not healthy. It's why when I met Wadley, I took an Xactimate training class from him. And I appreciated his vision and how he approached claim settlement so much that I bought him a beer and he said, please hire me immediately.

53:32 Like, I just want to learn and be able to do something different with you. And he talked about actionable and this book that he wanted to write of invoicing templates, but Wally's slightly dyslexic and I am not. So he needed some help. Harrison's a heck of a writer and I am not. He needed some help in writing that book. But what I have seen and I've experienced is that frustration grows. Nobody wakes up one day, starts a contractor shop, brands their first truck, buys their first tools and says, I can't wait to screw over my customers and the carriers. Nobody starts with that mantra. They're excited. But over time, you get beat and beat down and mistakes happen and you become jaded very quickly and very easily. When you're training with Actionable, one of our goals, one of the very beginning is throw away everything you know.

54:16 I'm sorry, but just throw away everything you've been told no to for the last 10 years because we are going to talk about Xactimate as a fundamental philosophy and we're going And then we can talk about its strengths, its weaknesses, how to justify when to deviate. But when you are in claim settlement, this is unfortunately at times a volume-driven business. I don't know many estimators that don't have too many claims on their desk. They're right, right? There's too many customers, too many claims, too many estimates, too much to do. Well, they've succumbed to the biggest lie I've ever told to the restorer is you'll make it up on volume. Right? So this is... Man, you guys are hitting some hot buttons. Yeah. Yeah. But the idea being that it is very quickly for a conversation between a contractor, adjuster, TPA reviewer to go sideways because of all that experience and frustration and the times that you knew you got screwed when you shouldn't have been screwed.

55:05 That's a tough thing to put away. How can you change that? It's really a change in the tone and the philosophy with how you approach claim settlement. People don't like being wrong. They don't. Humans don't like being wrong. When you tell somebody this is included in the line item, they say it's not included in the line item, we have a problem because there's a fundamental difference in the understanding of what's included in that line item or not included. So if you approach claim settlement with an era of education, Hey, when an adjuster says cleaning is included in the line item, that's a common misconception. There is a portion of cleaning included in a line item for a technician to clean their immediate area. But it does not mean a full, complete, final lockdown cleaning of the entire area, which still needs to be performed.

55:48 So instead of saying cleaning is not included in the line item, you're going to pay me for it. You can take an approach of, hey, I know where you think that there's cleaning included in the line item. In fact, let me show you in this morning of events what is included. What I am invoicing for is not that particular cleaning. And I just want to give the opportunity to clarify myself. And then you're approaching that conflict with education. You're trying to make the other person better and enrich and deepen their understanding of the software itself, while at the same time getting paid fairly for what you're trying to do. That's not easy. People just want to write estimates and get paid and get to work. I'm the contractor. I'm doing my job. Why do I got to justify everything? Why? As we've talked about, things are different in this industry.

56:29 I was born in this industry, by the way. I was not a guy that did it for 30 years and is trying to adopt or adapt. I was born into program estimating. I know this is the only game I know. So I'm doing my best to provide a platform with actionable that people can go turn to someplace to ask, how do I advance? How do I adapt? I'm imagining the nationwide bird picking you up, born into it like a stork would. When you're saying born into it. Chris, can I run with that question? Yeah, absolutely. How do we overcome it? I think you got to go up a level to not get jaded. You need perspective. When these carriers used to fly Bain Consulting, Boston Consulting Group out, what did they find out in the 90s? Okay, delay, deny, defend.

57:11 That seems to work. And then they found out, actually, the longer we keep this claim open... probably not great in the end. PAs get involved, right? And all of a sudden, things turn on the other side. So now they've become kind of myopically focused, carriers have, about cycle time, right? Because the most acute correlation between managing severity, claim cost, and cycle time, there's a real good correlation between them being able to manage severity, right? With closing the claim soon. So what the consultants, I think, from Boston and Bain are doing from my insight, which is unlimited, but some insight, Chris, in that they are really good at keeping contractors, estimators really busy.

57:53 And it's a shame that smart people in this industry don't take the time to leverage being smart. And if what we're saying is true, you can eliminate windshield time, right? Why are you sketching? This is silly. You can probably bill for it. Don't do that anymore. Stop driving to the job site. We have our most expensive talent driving to job sites. It's bananas. We really should take that additional time, like Harrison was saying, bring in that human component. So shake babies and kiss hands, right? So with that extra time, right? And then we should also spend that time to exercise our intellectual curiosity and go figure out why these adjusters are saying that. cleaning is included or why O&P isn't warranted here and there.

58:35 There are answers to all of this. It's not often that the carriers pull it up out of nowhere. But if you can guide them to where the catalyst for their misunderstanding is, and you do that in an authoritative, patient, professional way... It can be a really positive outcome. When you think of an HO3 policy, an all-apparel policy, there's a burden on the carrier to prove that that particular apparel isn't covered. That's the burden on the carrier. I think about claim settlement. If you want a line item to get paid, the burden is on the contractor. So own that. It's on you. So take that extra time, figure it out.

59:15 There are answers to this question. I can write, Harrison can write, Harrison's team can write a profitable sheet in almost any scenario. Why is that possible? Why? Because we've had the benefit of having, creating the time to approach this a bit like scientists. I think about the folks that we train as doctors, like ER doctors. They're running around, jamming, right? Oh my God, like get over here, right? We got all this madness. Imagine an ER environment. It's not that dissimilar to what they're experiencing in the chaos of property restoration. You can't learn in that environment. right but scientists alternatively you can do r&d you can try things some of them work some of them don't if you're lucky your wins are louder than your losses and then you can get to a really positive outcome and what we've tried to do and something i have great passion for is like here's our scientific work here's our body of work we've taken a lot of time maybe time not everybody has and we've served it up to you i think it's your obligation to go suss out like how that information can provide value to your individual restoration shop or your individual situation as an employee.

1:00:20 That's good. I love it. I love it. Well, the last question that we want to ask you guys is, we've been talking a lot about geospatial imaging and how that technology is really transforming the industry in a lot of different ways. Kent, for those that are listening to this that are frontrunners, they're early adopters, What are some of the technological changes that you guys see coming down the pike? What are some new technologies that we should be watching for and planning to adopt in the near future? Geospatial data. I mean, clearly Matterport has established itself as a set standard on both sides of the claim. And DocuStitch is starting to be a player. I mean, it's a lot better than taking pictures. It's certainly not as robust as the Matterport platform, and it's not really taken as seriously by the carrier side of the house, but it exists as an option.

1:01:04 Geospatial data really constrains the arguments. It reduces cycle times and it mitigates appraisals and litigation. These are things that are important to all of us or should be. If you aren't using geospatial data, if you're a carrier or a restorer, you're being left behind. Simple as that. What we really have an eye on at actionable right now is simbility. Geospatial data is kind of a given. And what especially concerns us about stability is that they license out their price list to Craftsman Book. At least with Xact, they have an obligation to stand behind their price list. And if you're a carrier or a restorer, you can advocate on your behalf a change to the price list.

1:01:46 And they're really obligated to listen and try to make reasonable concessions that wouldn't be totally at odds with the other side of the claim. If you were a restorer doing $20 million and you're in Idaho Falls and you want to advocate on your behalf in civility, what does that look like? Is there a clear path for that? Not that we've seen. Civility doesn't even control their own prices. So what are they going to send you down the road to craftsmen? And craftsmen, well, you're not really even their client. So why would they listen to you or have a traditional experience? channel, it might work, but it might not. I mean, it fundamentally seems a bit flawed to us.

1:02:26 If carriers move to stability in droves, which I think is unlikely, but I think it would be interesting because contractors would cling to Xactimate and the associated pricing. I think underwrites would become really commonplace because neither restorers or adjusters really have mastery of a new estimating platform and all the associated different price list line items. And I think ultimately policyholder satisfaction and even claims professional satisfaction restores job satisfaction, it could all decrease with that shift. It's important to remember Actionable was founded with an eye towards creating space for all of us to fall in love with our jobs again.

1:03:10 And I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm not saying there couldn't be some good associated with Exact finally having some credible competition from civility. But it's really difficult for us to connect the dots towards that tectonic shift, creating better outcomes for any of us. And I think leaving Xactimate might actually prove harder than leaving Afghanistan. What do you guys think? I actually love that you went there. I wrote one of the notes I had on here for wanting to talk to you guys about was that idea of simbility and what this CoreLogic purchase means and the relationship with NextGear. I mean, there are some really interesting things happening in terms of data. And Rachel Stewart, Accelerate has certainly been part of that conversation.

1:03:54 I think CNR, I think many... are starting to approach that. But I hear you and I hear passion in what you just said. I mean, there was fire certainly behind what you said. So anyways, I don't want to derail you. But guys, if you're listening to the show, there's been a lot said already in regards to just really great leadership practices and the bright mind space to be as restorers and to be the stewards of our estimating practices. But on top of that, we cannot ignore the very significant shifts that are happening in our industry that are being driven by PE.

1:04:34 There's a lot of money that wants to make its way into a very strong economy-resistant industry, which is the one that we survive and live in. So this is interesting stuff for us to be paying attention. So anyways, go ahead. I don't think it's all bad. I don't think the PE money is all bad. I don't think the data play is all bad. And this is a position that's seemingly unique to myself. I think that a lot of people are concerned about the data. I think the data that CoreLogic probably just picked up, it's probably low fidelity and it's probably not super organized. That wasn't a data analytics company. Harrison's team has a lot of data. Is it really... highly curated and high fidelity.

1:05:15 No, that's not our job. We're not selling the data analytics. If you're a software company, you might have some data, but it's probably not super high fidelity. I don't see that as a problem. Moreover, I think what you would find if you really got to the nuts and bolts of the data is that restorers aren't making as much money as they either think they are or they like. to act like they are. I mean, they make the ever-present mistake of running around in the $75,000 F-350 with the seven-inch lift. I'm sorry, guys. I love you, but it's not a great look when you show up to talk to the adjuster about everything you feel is needed and warranted. Oh my gosh, you're hitting it on the... Yeah, moreover, what do you think that does for your employees?

1:05:57 Like there's a reason that some of us choose to drive certain vehicles. Like that's not great to show up to your staff that you're paying what you can pay them. And this is what this industry affords, let's say, but they can't afford to pay attention. They can't even imagine what it's like to have a $70,000 truck. That's not doing anything good for you. That's totally antithetical to what we need this industry to be. And so I think we all need to grow up and we need to take some responsibility. And the PE money is actually going to require that that happens. So I think that some of the PE money behind a Jeff Moore or a Mark Springer or a Heitman, like that's not necessarily awful because there are restorers at heart and that might give some really powerful individuals, the ability to hold the line on what's fair and reasonable.

1:06:44 What we need to be mindful of is what happens when PE money is on every side of the deal, from owning the carrier to owning the software to owning the contractor. But they want to profit in every possible scenario. So climate change is real, we profit. Climate change, not real, we profit, right? Like that's where I'm concerned. We're already constrained to not really a free market because of a price list that's issued by Xact. That only gets worse if they own all sides of the deal. But that's not something unique to property insurance, gentlemen. I mean, any insurance is like that, right? Health insurance is like that. Mitchell International on auto, they're the main price list.

1:07:24 That's what matters. I mean, it's not a free market when you're in the insurance ecosystem. And that's okay. But we need to create space for the free market to attempt to play out where we can move the needle. But the game we talked about, the goalposts, the carriers move the goalposts, contractors got to move the goalposts. We don't want to whine about it, right? We want to show up to the game ready to play. That's how it goes. But if he owns all three sides, gentlemen, I don't even know if there's a game anymore. I think we're all pawns. I don't want to go there. I don't want to go there. Okay. I got a lot of week to work through. I don't want to go there. Hey, we want to be super cognizant of your time. You guys, we appreciate you. I will say that I think that this was one of those shows that from an intellectual level, it was, it was high and nothing on our end, of course, but what you guys too, you two guys brought to the show.

1:08:12 We do transcripts for all our shows. Guys, if you're listening today, you're going to want to go back and dive into some of that. More importantly though, gentlemen, where are we sending people to connect with AI? Because you guys offer a lot of resources that are extremely valuable to our listeners. If you're in the disaster restoration industry, and your team is providing estimating services, this team here at AI needs to be part of the toolkit. So where are we sending people, Seth? And then we'll add it in our show notes. Our website is getinsights.org. It's as simple as that. All the content that we're putting out there for estimating invoicing, things like the Insight Sheet database, over 3,700 pages of invoicing templates with example line items and F9 notes, the commonly overlooked line item, I mean, one thing we didn't talk about a ton today is Actionable has been quietly building algorithms that help refine estimates or audit estimates.

1:09:05 You'll see something next year in 2022 where we are coming out with an estimate assessment course. So you can actually submit an estimate and get graded. Where are you? Are you leaving money on the table? Were you aggressive? How was your formatting? How was your formatting? Do I hire this person? Do I take a pass? Right? Like it's an assessment test for potential hires or if you want to be hired. But the idea here is these are all resources, right? I talked about knowing that it exists and how to find it. We have stuff. If you don't know about it, come check it out. Getinsights.org. You won't regret taking a look at what we have. Almost everybody takes something away from one of our pieces of content that helps pay for their annual membership. And that's just the kind of things that we want to be able to provide. We are a 501c6.

1:09:47 We need money in order to be able to exist. That's how subscriptions and things help along the way. So if you're interested in Actionable and us pursuing this mission of providing a healthy ecosystem and providing clarification and reasonable and customary, get insights.org. That's awesome. Maybe the ninjas forum. Yeah, I like that. Okay, yeah. Exactimate Ninjas on Facebook. If you are on Facebook, we have two primary groups, Matterport Ninjas and Exactimate Ninjas to learn all the things that you want to learn. I think the best part about those groups, Wiley, it's about 70% contractor, 30% adjuster. And one of the things we've found is that adjusters in Exactimate Ninjas are actively learning about the difficulties of being a contractor.

1:10:27 based on the questions that people are asking. It's creating the empathetic environment and claims that we want just by hosting everyone in the group. I'm very proud of the culture. There's no keyboard cowboys, you know, plusting open comment sections and shooting everybody in the saloon. We don't allow for that in our Facebook groups. So it's self-policed, people care, people want to get better. And that's the spirit in which we tackle everything we do here at Actionable Insights. That's so cool. I love that. It's been really fun talking to you guys about what could be considered an otherwise mundane subject matter, right? Estimating the estimatics, all the process stuff. But it's been a lot of fun talking to you guys and you somehow are able to bring levity to it. I don't really think that's us.

1:11:07 I think, Chris, that's you and Brandon. I... just picked up your podcast and I'm a listener. And I'm not saying that about the other podcasts that are coming out in this space. It is really well produced. And you guys at Floodlight seem to have a fresh look at this coaching and consulting aspect that's so desperately needed in our space. And I love the fresh blood, getting in here with a fresh approach. It is time and it's really refreshing to see. And I think you guys are going to be very successful. And I would like to participate... in that J-curve to the extent that it ever presents an opportunity to do so. Oh man, we only get better hanging out with guys like you.

1:11:48 You guys in general, and Chris and I have talked about this, and this will be the last compliment. We'll let you guys go, but... I think people are hearing it in the conversation. This is not the Wild West. This is not fly-by-night cowboys. You guys are taking a very strategic look and you're saying, okay, the game is going to change. It's going to constantly be in a state of change. What are we going to do to equip people to be successful in that ever-changing environment? And you're doing it well. So guys, if you're listening to the show, please do not do yourself a disservice. You've got to get online. You have to go see these guys. You have to go listen to the training and the things that they're providing because it will change your game.

1:12:29 We don't have choices here. This is the stuff that we have to elevate the way that we can play. And a big part of that is participating in what you guys are offering. So again, guys, thank you. We appreciate you being on the show. And there is no doubt we will continue to follow you guys and hang out with you so that we can continue to be better. So thanks again, guys. All right. Thank you. Until next time. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of the MRM Podcast. And if you got something out of it, share it with a friend. Hit subscribe, hit follow. Leave us a five-star review. Thanks a lot.