Ep 136 - "The Evolution of Andy McCabe And The Rebels"

0:00 Okay, listen, we've got a powerful show today. I think what gets me excited about this conversation is just how honest Andy is throughout. One of the reasons why I reached out to Andy, I've actually been wanting to have a conversation with him for a while. I really like Andy. Brandon and I both have interacted with him over the years. I think I first met Andy back in 2013, 2014 at a business networking meeting in Corvallis, Oregon in a grocery store community room. And I liked him from the jump. I think, I suspect that a lot of people that are going to listen to this show know primarily one of two Andys. You know, there's industry professional Andy, who I really respect, is, you know, public adjuster, client owner of Claims Delegates.

0:44 estimating professional, exactimate pro, all of those things. And as far as I can tell, universally regarded as a real top-notch industry pro. And then many of you know him more as an industry activist and the founder and leader of the Restoration Rebels, their Facebook group, which by the way is over 10,000 strong. Far and away, the biggest... organized industry group of restorers. Far and away. It's incredible. And by the way, I'm involved in that group. I've joined the Facebook group and I get in there and answer questions and participate in conversations. It is a really useful community, especially if you're a brand new restorer.

1:27 There are so many people that quickly jump in to help answer questions and support each other. So there's a lot of great things happening there. I encourage you to check it out if you haven't yet. But to many, Andy over the years has been somewhat radioactive because of his comments on LinkedIn in particular, some of the squabbles and so-called fistfights with adjusters and carrier folks and stuff like that. I think everybody who's followed him though, recognizes that while his approach has been caustic or abrasive, I think that's fair to say. he's always been oriented towards advocating for the customer and the contractor.

2:07 And I think that is what has earned the respect and loyalty of so many restorers, almost universally, even though they don't necessarily advocate for him or stand up for him in public. And in this conversation, we really get a chance to learn a lot more about Andy, about what's happening behind the scenes, some of his life, some of his struggles. Yeah. No doubt some of which have contributed to the way he's shown up at times in social media. But it's just to me, I think oftentimes we judge people, we put them in a category, and we never let them out of that box. And it's clear to me that Andy has been evolving over the years. And he's a different person than he was in 2020.

2:50 He's a different person than he was in 2013, 2014 when I met him, as all of us hopefully are. So I think sometimes it's really important for us to reevaluate folks and bring them back into the fold. But you choose. You choose what you think. Let's dive in. Wow. How many of you have listened to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast? I can't tell you that reaction, how much that means to us. Welcome back to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brennan. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. This new camera angle makes my arms look smaller than yours. I'm noticing that and I really appreciate it. I thought you did that on purpose. No, I don't.

3:30 I didn't. And I am not happy with it. Hey, y'all. Thanks so much for listening to the show. Hey, if you're not already following, please do so. And ultimately share, right? The coolest currency that we have in terms of supporting this is share it with a friend, share it with somebody, a colleague, a peer, one of your downline team members. Let them be able to take advantage of the information you're already leveraging in your favor. And finally, guys, if you hear a show that really moves you, that really moves the needle, will you please leave us a review? Those five-star reviews help Right on. And listen, if you're trying to grow your business, you might consider checking out Floodlight's Business Opportunity Audit. It's free.

4:10 We provide it at no charge. It's actually what we use to assess new clients as they come in. It's 110 point assessment for your business. And we've now decided to give access to the general public for it. So go and take our business opportunity audit at floodlightgrp.com. It's going to help you identify the biggest gaps and opportunities in your business right now. And at the end, it'll assign you a health score to let you know exactly where your business stands right now. So go check it out, floodlightgrp.com forward slash audit and take the BOA. It's a great way to get a pulse on your business. Well, everybody, Chris, Chris, son of a gun, dude. You told me I could open. I know, but here you go. I lied. You know what? You know what set that off is I was re-listening to the Clint Pulver episode last night and it was the original recording.

4:55 You jump in before me and it really sets me off. I heard that. I listened to it on the way over today. Yeah, that's right. So we just, we took it back. And for those of you not watching the video, you may recognize that voice. So Chris, get us going here, buddy. Yeah. Well, welcome, Andy McCabe. I was working on it last night. I'm like, what am I going to say about Andy? Andy is so multifaceted. And I think one of our goals with this show is... In fact, I think the working title for the show is going to be the evolution of Andy McCabe. And inevitably... We're going to talk about the evolution of Restoration Rebels. Many of you, inevitably, many of you listening to this episode are going to be faithful rebels. And I just think, you know, Andy, you and I first met, gosh, yeah, it must have been around 2018.

5:40 No. before that. No, before that. Was it 16? I don't know. I forget what context. I know you had a kind of a startup you were working on odor remediation, if I remember right. Do you remember that? You were... Okay. Yeah. Anyway, so we met and we hung out. And I just, the thing that I remember about Andy when we first got together is I just, I really came away from that meeting liking you. And... I had no idea that we would continue tracking together for the next eight plus years. But it's been really fun for me just keeping track of you on LinkedIn. Both of us are super active and on Facebook and stuff. And just being able to track with you. I think one of the things I've noticed is that there's people in our orbit that don't seem to change a whole lot.

6:26 It's kind of like what we knew about them 10 years ago is kind of still what we know of them now. And you're one of those people where I feel like I've watched you change in some very profound ways. And I really respect that and admire that in anybody, right? So that's been really fun for me to watch that. And of course, from my time at Summit Cleaning and Restoration and Yumi and Brandon, I think, started cultivating kind of a friendship during that time. And then more recently, since we formed Floodlight and so forth, we've just kind of been paralleling one another in our various startup business endeavors and stuff like that. And so I've been wanting to have this conversation and Brandon and I have been talking about it off and on for a while.

7:07 Long time, yeah. And so here we are. We had kind of a robust little coffee walk just now here before the show. And I'm excited about where we're... I think we're going to try and take this conversation. But I would like to start us, if you're cool with it, with give us a little bit of an origin story. Because I have a feeling a lot of people listening to this, they've heard a thing or two about Andy McCabe. We were talking about this. It's like they know of Andy McCabe from some headlines or LinkedIn posts or Facebook things. And I think... Whenever we have a better understanding of somebody's full story, we get a clearer picture of who that person is today, you know? And so do you mind just like start out, how'd you get into this industry? Let's start there and then give us some of that.

7:48 Yeah, if you could start with how you were born. Was it head first? Yeah. Were you a dropper? What happened? No. Exactly. Exactly. Go back to the time right when the glaciers had receded. And man started walking up, right? From that point on, what happened? Oh, man. I've got two smartasses on my hands today. And we're in the same room. It was all your fault. And you're over there. Yeah. Thanks for the intro. That's right. I too have been, since you guys started this thing, I've watched with jealousy your ability to really up the tech level here. I'm looking at all this cool stuff. Your production level is really good. And more importantly than any of that, consistently your guys' messaging is spot on.

8:32 And you guys are coming from a place of just authenticity and heart. I think Head, Hearts, and Boots was really, it's a genius. I'm going to have you guys arm wrestle who came up with that. Oh, it was Chris. Yeah, it was Chris. No wrestling required. Listening to... episode 140 or something, the one on depression on the way over. Oh, yeah. I had a two and a half hour drive over from Bend. I'm in Corvallis. I actually grew up here. Oh, yeah. I knew that. It just really hit me. So you guys are, you're doing a lot of things right. I really appreciate you guys having me here today. Thanks, brother. Phenomenal. Yeah. Thanks, dude. And you got to eat that mic. I'm going to eat the mic. Eat the mic, dude. That's right. All right. Origin story.

9:12 Who is Andy McCabe? So I started in, graduated Oregon State 2000-ish, 1999, 2000, and needed a job, graduated with a degree in marketing communications. And so I was in Portland at the time, and there was a company called Dow Columbia that was hiring for a marketing manager. And when you hire for a marketing manager in restoration in the early 2000s, what that is, is a stop and drop agency guy. Yep. Smiles and candy, baby. Smiles, candy and donuts. And so once, once every quarter, my job was to touch every agent in the Portland Metro market once a quarter.

9:56 That was my sole job. And that was my first job in restoration. Nice. Nice. First exposure. First exposure. Like, what's restoration? Who knew that there was an entire industry that just specializes in insurance repairs? Yeah. And I think that's pretty common. I think most of the world doesn't understand there's an industry that specializes in this. There's a whole, I mean, it's, and it depends on who you ask. Is it a hundred billion? Two hundred billion? It's somewhere in there. It's big. It's the biggest silent industry you've never heard of. Yeah. So that was my foray. the founder of Dow Columbia, who I was working for, his sons, was the second or third president of ASCR.

10:36 So ASCR, for those of you who don't know, is a predecessor to the RIA. So early on... Once they decided that I had too much skill to drop notepads and donuts on agents all day, they said, we want to move you up in, have you do something else a little more fruitful for us. The first thing they did was, we think we want you to be a project manager estimator, but before you can do that, you have to do everything else. So I went to got my WRT, got my ASD, I got my MRT, mold, a little bit of contents, went to a flood house a couple times. And so I was a water damage technician for a year and a half before I could do anything else. And in that market, Portland, Oregon at that time, Dow Columbia kind of really ruled that roost.

11:22 Okay. We were the 2001-ish. one-ish to five-ish. Okay. And they were the top dog. There's Kennedy, there was Cooper. Yeah. Ojai was just starting then. Probably no one else heard of those guys now. But at the time, we were the preeminent restorer in that market. And I grew up through that organization, really understanding at a base level of what it takes to service the customer, what kind of relationships you need to have. At the time, you could actually have a relationship with an adjuster. Yeah, right. You could take them out to drinks. You could take them to ball games or whatnot. And that's where I got my foundation. And I remember falling in love with this industry when I realized that every single job I responded to, the homeowner or the business owner came to me with some version of, thank God you're here.

12:13 Yeah. Thank God you're here. Hero industry. Freaking hero, man. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I like to say I drive a white truck because I like getting on my white horse and going to the rescue. I'm going to say that forever. My white truck's parked out front if you guys didn't see it. So that's really where it kind of got in my blood. And then I moved up through the ranks. But I think based on our earlier conversations on the street, I think this is a great time to mention that while I was growing in restoration... While I was coming into this newfound industry and really learning some great skills, I was also learning the great skill of how to drink. My boss was a raging alcoholic. And I had, I think it's arguable that I was an alcoholic before I got here.

12:56 And this industry actually accelerated that process. Mm-hmm. And that's really where the wheels started falling off the bus for me professionally is my boss was only encouraging all this, this really bad behavior. And so when I left Dow Columbia, unfortunately, I brought those habits with me. And so those really followed me that, that, you know, every single golf tournament, you're getting wasted because it's expected. It's shameful to talk about now. But one of the favorite marketing events was to take a bunch of adjusters to a strip club. Wow. Right? Yeah. I don't know if it's right, but I mean, it's not right. Yeah. Absolutely.

13:36 But that was the mentality that pervaded at least a segment of the industry I was in at the time was that was okay. Yeah. Not only was that okay, but that was encouraged because those adjusters might send you a job someday and blah, blah, blah. The worst thing is actually the worst job I could have had as an alcoholic. But that is really where that both of my love for the industry and really this real problem that I've been dealing with my entire adult life started. Stemmed from... That's where I started in this industry. I think where I came, kind of came out onto the scene, took a number of years, right? Well, I'd say, Chris, you and I met at a B&I meeting here in Corvallis.

14:17 I want to say circa 2015. Wow. Dude, no way, man. At Comfort Inn & Suites or something like that. One of those little... Grocery store, the Whole Foods or Market of Choice. Oh, Market of Choice. Oh my gosh. Oh, dude, man. I do remember that in the upper room up there. And on Circle. Yeah. Yeah. Way back when. And at the time, I had already lost one of the greatest jobs I think I've ever had. I was working for a company called Harbro, who is now Blue Sky. Oh, yeah. Oh, sure. Yeah. And due to my behavior unbecoming... let's say, surrounded by this culture of drinking that I had just embedded myself in, I lost that job.

14:57 And then I lost a job immediately after that. And immediately after that, it was like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then 2012, I realized that in the Portland market where I was living, I was unhirable. Wow. Andy, can I stop you real quick, bro? I just, I'm curious, as you were in this phase, because this was what, like your mid to late 20s at this point? Yeah. No, I was 30, 35. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. So during this time, you were referring now to your alcoholism, but what was the story you were telling yourself then? Like, what was your headspace around this stuff? I mean, you're coming into this industry. I would imagine at least at one point, it was like, man, this is fun. I'm getting paid to party, have a good... Was it?

15:39 Maybe it was. So I'm curious, what was your headspace around this stuff then as you were moving through it? No, I did a video 2015-ish on this sort of subject. And it came down to, yes, it was very normalized. This behavior. And it's less so nowadays. I think we've become more woke as an industry or whatnot. I think more cooler heads have prevailed that this party mentality is, it's still out there, but it's not as front and center. Yeah. Yeah. I take that back because I was at the bar at the RIA in Dallas. And it was still full. I saw that. Yeah. I saw that whole three of them. Oh my God. But it's, I look at that through a different lens now.

16:20 Yeah, obviously. But there's, that's just one part of it. This normalization of drinking culture that we have in the industry. The other part was what I add up to cognitive dissonance. It has become so much harder to be a restorer in this industry over the years. It was way easier in 2001 than it was in 2010. Way easier in 2010 than it was in 2015. And today it's really, really hard. And what we have is these conflicting loyalties, conflicting bosses. At the time, I was like, I had to serve three masters. I had the insured. I had the client. I had my boss. But I also had the adjuster.

17:02 Mm-hmm. Those people have very, very different needs, goals and wants for me and my time and my output. And what I was seeing is I have to give up something. I have to shortchange the insured in order to make the adjuster happy. I have to piss off the adjuster to make my boss happy. And this cognitive dissonance of, I had to find a way to maintain my sanity. So in order to lessen that cognitive dissonance, I would drink till I would black out. Wow. And it got to the point really, really bad. It was pre-2015, but it got to the point where I would, I was late to the bar at 2.30 in the afternoon.

17:45 Wow. Every single day. I would wake up in the morning going, okay, how can I plan my day so I can start drinking? And it really, it destroyed my life. It's hard to understate that. Yeah, yeah. coming out of that, 2015, I think that's where we can pick up the hero's journey. Yeah. So 2015, I was two and a half years sober. I had my coins in my pocket and everything. I went to work for ServiceMaster over in Bend. And that same year, or that same summer, I was over there in June, July, August, late August or early October, 2014, my sister-in-law, murdered my nephew.

18:28 Holy cow. Threw him over the bridge in Newport. Oh my God. Chris, you might've heard about this. You were at that time. It made national news. I was just brand new at ServiceMaster, relatively new into my subpariety. And believe me, when I got that phone call from my father, I was like, oh shit. Well, I guess I'm going to start drinking now. Here it is. Here it is. Yeah. And thank God I didn't. Obviously got up early that next morning, drove over to Newport to be with my family, went through that whole thing. And there was about a month, month and a half of me not being present at ServiceMaster in my job, going through that whole thing. And there's a lot of why I do what I do in that story of my nephew.

19:13 the murder of London plays into my whole theory on insurance in general. And in that instance, health insurance, but I don't think we have time to go into that today. Got back and essentially shone the door. Your services are no longer needed. Late 2014, two weeks before Christmas. And I had two choices. So let me back up a little bit. On my way over to see my family the next morning after my nephew was murdered, I was like, first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to drive downtown Newport and I'm going to go to a bar because I'm going to need several drinks before I go deal with this. Because me and emotions don't get along. That's a part of my alcoholism.

19:54 I don't like emotions. I don't like feelings. Feelings are awful things. Obviously, I'm saying that in jest, but fate had it that on my way down to downtown Newport, there's a AA sign on a building, meeting open. And I pulled in and went to a meeting. And I really think that meeting, that sign in front of that building saved my life because I could have gone way off and I wouldn't have come back. I really don't think I would have. So I go through all that, get back to Bend. I'm fired two weeks before Christmas. What do I do? Well, the option to destroy my life further, okay, I've taken that off the table. I think I'm beyond that.

20:35 What do I do? Well, I just went headfirst into restarting my consultancy that I started in 2012, writing remote estimates, doing Xactimate remotely. That's what I was doing before that. And so I picked that up. And not only did I do that, I said, well, I want to get in shape. So, I had an invitation to go to the Hood to Coast that year. Oh, yeah. And Hood to Coast, for those who don't know, is a 200 and something mile race. It's a relay race. You do in teams. Two vans of five people each. You start at the top of Mount Hood at Timberline Lodge and go all the way to Seaside, Oregon at the beach. Huge, huge. Awesome. It's epic. Yeah. And it's, I mean, if you've ever driven that road during that time, it's going to be crazy this year too.

21:19 It's insane. But I went from my couch, like really not doing anything, I'm really out of shape, 265 pounds at the time, to running the Hood to Coast to two weeks, three weeks after the Hood to Coast, I ran my first triathlon. Wow. So I went couch to triathlon in 13 weeks. Wow. Wow. What a... And that really started that 15-16. 2015-16 was, I think, I was really in my own. My business started taking off. I got in the right headspace. Obviously, when you're physically fit, you have more mental acuity, really. I'm a little bit anxious coming in to see you guys because, God, you guys are fit.

22:02 More so, Chris, than me, but we're trying, Matt. We're trying hard. Yeah, I have not stayed up with that regimen, but that's when the rebels really, really started. Yeah. Is in that time of, man, this is getting really, really hard as a restorer. And my clients were all restorers. And they're saying, man, it's really hard to get paid. It's getting harder and harder and harder to get paid. And I don't know if you guys are old enough to understand this, but when I started doing mitigation... We were putting 10 and 10 on everything. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was overhead and profit on everything. Yeah. Content, roofing, mitigation. It was only mid-2010, 2011, where the carriers talked some restorers into taking that piece of revenue away, taking that profitability piece away.

22:51 Yeah. And then the rest of the industry, it only took a few of us to acquiesce to that. And then it became the standard. The new norm. And that's where I realized 2015-ish, we did it to ourselves, bros, teachers and bros. Let this happen. People are like, man, how did it get like this? And they're complaining and whining. And no, we did this. So if we did this, guess what? We can undo this. Hey, so I got to hit pause real fast. Do it. Because I see where we're going and I like it. But I don't want to gloss over this, Andy, because this, you just described a very dark time in your life. And you admit some people never get out of that.

23:34 Like some people never claw their way out of the darkness like you were in, right? Yeah. So AA, that AA meeting was a moment in time that was like a moment of truth for you. But how big of a role did AA play in your recovery, kind of coming out of that season, your nephew and some of the professional failures that you described and so forth? What role did AA play? And were there other people in your life that you relied on to kind of make that transition That's a great question. I think my story is not unique in that you develop those relationships in the rooms. And people outside the rooms can't understand.

24:17 There's no way to comprehend the mentality of an alcoholic unless you are an alcoholic. Yeah. So the people that really, I found that I quickly gravitated towards men-only groups. And I know it's, it's Alcoholics Anonymous, you know, we're not supposed to, it's anonymous. Well, it's, it's only anonymous in that I don't talk about what's, what goes on. I don't talk about the people in the groups, but I can talk about my experience. So I've quickly found that men-only groups was really my jam. And I found a great group. Actually, it was part of my employment agreement, sort of, when I went to ServiceMaster. Because I was, that's how known I was in Portland. Yeah. Like the biggest ServiceMaster in Portland.

25:00 He was actually one of the few people in my entire life that are actually honest with me. That's something that we have a tendency as a society and I think in this industry to just to gloss over shit and not talk about shit. Yeah. I was a raging alcoholic for a number of years. Nobody called me on that shit. And it was known. Oh, fuck. Right. Like your behavior was obvious. Stupid. Yeah. But I wasn't the only guy. Yeah. But I was, you know, probably one of the worst guys. So this guy at ServiceMaster, he owns the biggest ServiceMaster in Portland, said, hey, I can't hire you. I like you. Andy, I like you. I can't hire you. I was like, dude, talk about a gut punch. Yeah, it's the rest of your associated, right?

25:42 Well, what's crazy is that is not, that theme has repeated itself in my professional career. Yeah. But just replace alcoholism with the shit that I said online. And there's a lot of negativity. And I think most of that negativity comes from the outside of people who have not experienced it. They don't understand. They don't admit. Yeah. It's like, well, the success rate is only 5%. Well, great. Yeah. And I have gone out since. I'm working on my, I've got a 30-day coin. Yeah. Now, and I'm working on my 60-day coin again. This is a life. When I let life get to me, when I let myself become the victim, and you guys mentioned this on the podcast I listened to on the way over, when we let ourselves, and Chris, you said this, when we let ourselves become the victim, we give up control of our own lives because we're the victim and it happened to us, bad shit happens.

26:36 Yeah. Yeah. Just does. Yeah. You know what? I just kind of want to throw something in here. Congratulations on that 30-day coin, bro. Unbelievable. Right? Unbelievable. That's good, man. Something I just want to highlight for those listening, because some of our listeners aren't aware of potentially who you are. Most probably are. Maybe this wasn't clear yet, but Chris and I's motivation to have you on the show was we've experienced an arc of maturing professionally and personally being third-party observers of you. We've started to build more of a formal, I think, friendship. But I think this first part, just tiptoeing into your origin story is a clear example of this process of identifying, maturing, and taking action to change or reorient the story that you're living in.

27:26 And I think it's a true testament to the rest of what we're going to end up hearing as it relates to you, the rebels, these other things. And I guess what I want to just kind of throw this seed out there for people to hold on to is it's really important that we are given grace to change. Mm-hmm. And I think it's then in turn appropriate and important for us to be monitoring the way that we're thinking and experiencing other people and ensuring that we're giving them the grace to change. And I think part of what Chris and I's purpose behind this show and having you on was, one is you have the balls to talk about it, which is in and of itself admirable. Thanks, man. I think two, you have matured in a meaningful way and you have a voice that is impactful in our industry.

28:09 And we want to encourage people to give you the grace to change. so that they can see the maturing version of you because we believe actually, Andy, you have a lot to contribute to the industry still. And so again, like if you're a listener and you have some kind of theory about your experience with Andy and the rebels in the past, whether it's high or low, I think what we want to encourage everybody in, in fact, this is some training that Wayne did yesterday for one of our clients. And one of the things that we were talking about is part of like this living out of extreme ownership. Mm-hmm. is this idea of as leaders, as people, we have this responsibility to hear people for what they're trying to tell us.

28:49 Not just their words. Not just what we're, right? And I think what I'm trying to apply here is this idea that I think this is one of those opportunities that if this is new or existing exposure to a guy like Andy McCabe and influencers within our industry, I think it's important that we take some time to hear what you're actually saying. not living out the assumptions or what other people have told us about your story or lack thereof or whatever the thing is. And so I just want to encourage our listeners for that and encourage you, man. It's like, it's not common for people to pop onto a show like this and talk this openly about what they're doing and what their experience has been. And the reality of it is you're not alone. You're mirroring for everyone listening stories that probably 90% of us can relate to some version of it.

29:32 Right. Whether it is exactly the same or not. So anyways, I just think that's... Thanks, man. Yeah. Yeah. Of course, I think it's valuable. So you were starting to head into kind of the origin. You're talking about this shift in the industry that you were seeing, right? 2015-ish, right? The 10 and 10 was starting to go away. Carriers are starting to provide some pushback on that in invoices and estimates. And you're seeing this and something's starting to kind of rise up in you. Yeah, and I think it started with a particular situation that was particularly frustrating. And it was probably something that I would have had a drink over. And instead of doing that, I let my aggression out on the internet Prior to you and I meeting Chris, I was, Brendan Burchard, I don't know if you've heard of him.

30:21 Oh, sure. I was following his work and his whole thing was make as many connections as you can. So I, coming out of college and up to that point, I was like, I was very diligent on trying to make as many connections on LinkedIn as possible. And so at that point, I maybe had, I don't know, 10,000 connections, something like that. A little less than 10,000 connections, but something significant. And then I just started blasting. I said, look at this shit. Look at this shit. This is not fair, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And enough of it resonated that I got some significant positive feedback. And there was no small amount of my ego that really loved the fact that people were resonating with my messaging.

31:05 And I was, at the time, I was sober, but I was still fucking angry. Yeah. And I would, man, I was just blasting. I would put an adjuster on blast like that. And I would name them and I would call their company out. And I would just go boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. But. good, bad, or indifferent, whether you agree with my messaging early on or not, it resonated. There was replies and people were like, man, I was getting phone calls out of the blue because I naively or not, my phone number was out there early. I like put my phone number on the internet. You're not supposed to do that. Yeah, exactly. But I'll still, I still get phone calls today out of the blue and I'll pick up the phone.

31:47 Don't call me. Yeah. I've been more diligent about letting voicemail do what voicemail does. But at the time, it was like a self... You almost get in a hyperloop. Exactly. Like self kind of sustaining. Yeah. And then it didn't take very much longer for me to go, oh, well, if we all think this way, let's just start a group. And I was particularly angry enough and particularly geeky enough on Star Wars that I wanted to be the rebel scum. So... What was I going to name my Facebook group? Of course. That is amazing. Rebels. I had no idea there was a nod to Star Wars. It actually makes me reflect more.

32:28 Oh, the first logo. Go back and check. Oh, yeah. The first logo. It's almost a direct ripoff. Oh, that is awesome. Disney would sue me today if I got bigger. I've changed it. But no, it was directly rebel scum, fighting the empire, the industry. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And we got traction. Quickly. Traction. 2000. And then, and then it got to the point where it was either, you know, somebody from Canada called me and said, Hey, we've got, we've got 4000 members in this group, 3000 members of the group, what now? Well, what is what now? What's the next logical step of anything like this is, oh, let's get together. Let's do a thing. And, you know, I was still broke and poor and living in Bend.

33:12 And, well, I can't afford to go anywhere. So if we're going to do a thing, we're going to do it here. So I went down to the River Bend, River Place, River Place Inn, I think it was. Oh, River Bend Hotel, man. Yeah. Convention Center. Old stomping grounds. They had some rooms that I could rent relatively cheaply. And I put an Eventbrite post together. Said, hey, come see me. And I had surrounded myself with enough people. And some of these people are still there. Clark Brown, O.P. Almaraz, Kevin Dooley. Yeah. Legendary. Yeah. These guys had, I don't know what they saw in me. They saw something. I think they saw themselves, a bit of themselves in me. Yeah.

33:53 I resonated with them enough that they came to Bend. We had 80 restorers show up in Bend, Oregon, and we had our first summit. After that first summit, it was like, this is on. We're a thing. Early on, we were still very anti-everything. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great way to put it too. Anti-everything. You knew what you didn't want. You just didn't know what you wanted yet. Exactly. Yeah. And in our immaturity, in my immaturity, we would attack organizations like the RIA. We'd put the RIA on blast. Like, what the fuck did you do for me lately? Type shit. And I think that era of Andy McCabe really has detracted from my true message of what I was trying to get at in the first place.

34:39 What is that? Like, maybe this is a good time to hear that specifically and not gloss over it. At the time, what was it? What were you trying to say? I was trying to say, we need to come together in a meaningful way in order to fight this tidal wave of an industry that is going to swallow us up. And even that has changed. So you said at the time, and that wasn't what it was at the time. I think my perspective on the whole thing has changed since then. But at the time, I think we actually had a chance to accomplish. I, at this point in time, 2024, I think that window has closed I think the rebels and any movement that we have needs to adjust.

35:24 We need to evolve as an organization, as a movement, as an industry, we need to evolve. And it came to me pretty clearly when I was at Contractor Connection, Restore24. Oh, just a couple months ago. Just a couple months ago. And it's been coming to my head in different shapes and forms over time. But it really hit me like, we've got a choice. We're in this river. This is the insurance repair river. And it is fucking huge. Yeah. And it is flowing. And it's the freaking Mississippi. We can get in that river and try to swim upstream. We can do the rebel way and swim upstream in the freaking Mississippi River.

36:04 Or we can figure out how to swim with the current and still take care of our customers and take care of ourselves. Because the current's not going to change. Yeah. Yeah. But as we're going down the current, we can still influence the river. Yeah. But we can't influence it going upstream. Yeah. Because we're fighting too hard. We're wasting too much of our energy trying to go upstream. We need to save our energy to find out, okay, who else can we collaborate with here? How else can we influence this stream while we're going with the stream? Because as long as we're fighting it, we're always going to be on the outside. Yeah. And that's, I mean, I think it probably applies to the origin story. I mean, I think we saw that.

36:45 I would say I've always been very, I would say just slow. So even as an operator, I've been slow, right? To jump into the rebel culture. Mm-hmm. I think part of that stems from my just my own, I don't necessarily like to be in contrast, stark contrast with the group. I don't mind having my own opinion, but I think especially in my younger operating days, I didn't know enough. I wasn't self-reliant or confident enough probably to jump in with both feet. And it was probably more that than like my perspective on the rebels because you guys were so brassy about your messaging.

37:25 Yeah. I think now looking back, and I believe that's part of what you just communicated is, you saw that that wasn't necessarily the way. But what were some of the things hitting you guys in the face as you're getting both this movement gathering momentum and though as it's growing momentum, I'm assuming then the opposition is also gaining momentum. What was happening culturally in the group and in your head during that time frame? Yeah. It's important to keep perspective on what we're really talking about here. The big five insurance companies, how many trillion dollars are they worth? A lot. Yeah. The total revenue for every restorer in the country is a rounding error on that.

38:08 So when you say resistance, we weren't getting real resistance. Because if we were from the motherships of those big five, we would have been wiped off the face of the earth. Legally, they would have just shut it down through some kind of... Right. We were getting resistance on the boots on the ground level, individual adjusters going, who the hell are you? I remember people sending me screenshots of posts from LinkedIn, adjusters saying, what are you, one of those restoration rebels? And at the time, we're like, yeah. Points of pride. Yeah. Yeah. But there's just, at the end of the day, we're not going to fight it. Early on, I received the lesson that I only now I'm just learning what it was really about.

38:51 And that was when we came up with this rebel map. And we put together a Google map. And at the time you could do it. You probably still can. I don't know. It's been a number of years. You can do it. Yeah, you create a custom map. Yeah. Do a custom map and you put in all the addresses. You know, so we had a little Star Wars Rebel logos all over the United States. Yeah. And because we wanted our whole idea was, hey, we can help it together. We can increase our SEO. We can start this big organization and be a huge promotional piece for us on the SEO level and the local search level. That's where my head was at. Two days later, I started getting phone calls from restorers that are on the map. Take me off the map. Take me off the map. Get me off the map today.

39:32 What is happening, people? And what was happening was those adjusters and the regional claims managers Somebody got a hold of that map and they were going down the list. Oh, wait, aren't you on our TPA? Well, you're off our TPA. And restorers were literally taken off a TPA list because they were on the Rebel map. And that lesson now, you know, five years on is, oh, shoot, I see exactly what that was about. At the time, I was so mad. It's like, man, we put a lot of work into this. Yeah, yeah. This was... This was supposed to be a good thing and no one wants to be a part of our map. So that was a turning point of we got to be careful.

40:12 We just got to be careful and intentional. We got to have a full understanding of the consequences for our actions. And that was an unforeseen consequence on my side. Yeah. So this is 16, 17-ish. So at this point, what's beginning to happen internally for you in terms of maybe your relationship to the fight? Yeah. Right. And I want to preface this really quickly. When I say the fight in quotes, because again, we've had a lot more conversations with you. We have a fairly robust kind of understanding where your head's at. And certainly we're going to try to pull as much of that out in the show. But at the time, still fighting for the most part. What was happening? What was the shift that you were beginning to recognize?

40:55 I noticed the composition of the group. In the composition of the group, there was not very many multi-million dollar operators in our group. Oh. Right? That tells you something. Yeah. So these are younger guys. They're newer guys. And an operator doing 500,000 to 2 million. Yeah. has a whole lot more control really over their own destiny and their life and their business and their local market than a $20 million or a $50 million restoration company. And the fact that the $20 million and $50 million and $100 million restoration companies were not a part of the group is telling.

41:37 So 2017, 18-ish, I took a job with a very large restaurant. shut down my consultancy. And they were trying to do something really cool. And I was going to be a part of something really cool. It was unique. And I think it is still unique to this day in the restoration space. Shortly after I arrived there, the VP of claims for a large insurance company called my boss and said, we saw you hired Andy McCabe and we don't like him and we're not going to send you any more work. And at that point, I was like, And my boss came to me and said, at this point, they were doing $100 million.

42:17 Right? So this insurance company. Important decision. It was a big deal. Yeah. Bigger than me. And that's what I told my boss. It looks like you have an Andy McKay problem. Let's solve it. And at the time, I was like, okay, fine. I'll just reopen my consultancy claims delegates again. Because I've done it. I walked away, started in 2012, walked away in 14. Came back. Walked away in 17. Came back. And then this last year, I walked away again, and it looks like I'm freaking coming back. Maybe I should just stick with that. Maybe I should just... I think the world hinting. I'll tell you what. Let's do it after this because I got some ideas. I'm just looking around.

42:59 Liftify.com forward slash bloodlight. You've heard Brandon and I talk a bunch of times about the importance of Google reviews. Maybe you even heard our episode with Zach Garrett, the CEO and founder. Recency, consistency, two of the most important things when it comes to maximizing the benefit from your Google reviews. Why not use an outside partner? Liftify is targeting 20 to 25% conversion, right? So if you do a thousand jobs a year, you ought to be adding right now, 200 to 250 reviews a year, every single year. If you're not doing that, you owe it to yourself to get a free demo from liftify.com. See their system, see how it works, see how affordable it is. I promise you, you'll thank us.

43:39 Liftify.com forward slash bloodlight. Thank you. You know, we spend a lot of money and a lot of attention trying to get that first call. And one of the things that we do once it happens is sometimes we leave it to chance, right? Who picks up the phone? How do they respond? How do they walk that client into a relationship with us? Well, one of the benefits of partnering with a team like AnswerForce.com is we can systemize that. We can make it more consistent. We can also have backup for when our teams need that help, right? Somebody goes on vacation. Somebody's out sick. We get a storm surge. We get cat event. All sorts of things can have an impact on how we receive that client. But the most important thing is they need to know that they've chosen the right team.

44:21 And so AnswerForce.com can support you, be a bolt-on partner to help you consistently produce an awesome onboarding experience with that first call with your client. So AnswerForce.com forward slash answerforce.com. blood light. Sounds great. CNR Magazine, we're friends with all the folks at CNR. Michelle and her team, they do a great job of keeping their ear to the ground and reporting all the important information from our industry. Right? You want to stay up on all the M&A activity and what the latest best practices are for selling your company successfully. Right? She's got that. Great articles about all the four quadrants of our business. Right? CNR is constantly pushing out great material and leveraging great writers and subject matter experts in our industry.

45:03 It is the water cooler of our industry. So if you're not subscribed, go to cnrmagazine.com. Follow them on LinkedIn. Follow Michelle on LinkedIn. Trust us. If you're trying to stay on top of everything happening in the industry, your best destination is cnrmagazine.com. You guys, many of you have already heard about actionable insights and the training and the technical expertise that they bring to the industry. But how many of you are already leveraging the actionable insights profile for Xactimate? That's the game changer. It's essentially an AI tool that's walking alongside of you as you write your estimate, bringing things to your attention that should be added, that could be considered.

45:44 All of them items that increase our profitability, increase the effectiveness and the consistency of that scope. And it can do anything from helping a new team member assimilate some estimating best practices. And it also helps the grizzled vets add back that few percent that we've just forgot over time. So actionable insights, get insights.org forward slash floodlight and take a look at what the actionable insights exactimate profile could be doing for you and your team. That whole interaction, I am a different human being. I was a different human being in 2012 than I was in 2010. I'm a different human being in 2015 than I was in 2012.

46:24 I'm a different human being today than I was even three years ago. And then COVID, and COVID changed everything. Yeah. Forever. It was a major catalyst. It turned everything upside down. But the industry, it only accelerated certain things in the industry. And I believe that the next phase of restoration needs to be very conscious of the shifts that are happening in our industry. And if we are passive in that, you're going to get sucked up and blown away. Yeah. Because we have a new player, right? Like this whole M&A consolidation piece. And again, I think the reality of it, we're going to have some version of a cycle just like every other industry has.

47:05 There's not like this one epic event that happens and the whole thing gets consolidated into one giant company. But PE has never been in the restoration space. Never. Yeah. Not especially the fervor. So yet another major variable contributing to the future landscape of our industry is... If you guys are okay, I want to move us a little bit more intentionally into starting to... And you're doing a good job of it right now, Andy, of just alluding to some of these shifts and where your head's beginning to go. Because for me, this feels like the most important part of our time together is I really want to give you the opportunity to talk about where your head is now. Because I think that's where the big disconnect may still be for people is we're stuck in what was.

47:53 And as you alluded, there's no one fucking doing that. We don't get to unsee what we've seen. So it is. But now what we need to do is we need to start hearing Andy's voice as it stands today. Because what a lot of people may not realize or recognize that Chris and I have seen, we're watching the conversations that you're engaged in with leadership, let's say at RIA and some of the other groups that are going to have a meaningful impact in our industry. And I think there's a really cool opportunity to begin hearing the newer voice that's of Andy and actually the rebel group in general, right? Yeah, I know. For me, I'll be honest, Andy, one of these watershed moments, you did some kind of live video post about heading over to Contractor Connection on your roadshow.

48:36 And I think you knew that that was a big deal that you were going to a TPA conference. Yeah. And I think every single person on the Facebook page too was like, Whoa. Okay. Well, this feels like a little bit of a turnabout. And you recognized it. You kind of sheepishly were like, yeah, I know. I know. But one thing before you go into that present day, I just want to say this because I feel like maybe we've walked around it a little bit is that throughout all these years, one of the things that I have seen is your professionalism in your trade craft has always been recognized by everybody.

49:16 Like it's interesting is Brandon and I, this reminds me of just a really quick story. We had a client in the Midwest, a big commercial restorer, and your name came up and he's like, oh yeah, Andy McCabe, have you guys heard of him? And we're like, yeah, we know Andy. And he's like, yeah, I used him to Matterport, a big giant commercial loss. I brought him in and he did a whole like a workup. Yeah. and aerial drone stuff for me. It was funny how he said it. He's like, yeah, he's a bit radioactive in the industry. You probably heard of, you know, Restoration Rebels, da, da, da. He said, but man, I like the guy and shit, he's really good. That's huge. It is huge. And it's one of those things too that I think Brandon and I and just our various mutual connections and of course, everybody knows everybody in this industry.

50:01 And when you've come up in conversation, even in past years, like years gone by, three, four, five, six years ago, I think it's worth saying that, that you've, even in those times where your reputation was highlighted by the Restoration Rebel stuff, you've, there was always kind of this dual context of, yeah, but he's a freaking rad estimator. And he's got, you know, you have this, you've always been sort of leading edge with a lot of the tech stuff too, and drone shit and Matterport and all of this kind of stuff. And so I just want to say that because that's been one of the things that I've, even as I've observed, there's been times where publicly, I've kind of hung back a little bit.

50:42 For sure. Because I was a little bit afraid of, You're not the only one. Of publicly being associated with some of the rebel narrative. That was always my experience of you as well. I'm like, God, this guy is like really on top of what's happening in the industry. And we've always heard good things from clients of yours, you know, on the Estimatics and Matterport and all the various, you know, services that you've provided the industry. And so I think that's worth saying. Go into this a little bit. Because I feel like there's been a pretty profound shift. And I mentioned to you this morning, I referenced the RIA conversation, the episode we did with Ben Looper and Katie Smith. And one of the things that came up in that sort of RIA recap was, man, the industry is really coalescing kind of as a group.

51:33 And I think you... have been a key part of that, especially in these last 18 months to 24 months. I feel like I've watched a very deliberate... And I want to make sure I don't characterize this as you sort of going soft or not championing the cause and the concern for the small restorer. But I feel like you have become more, way more thoughtful and kind of intentional and more collaborative, much more big picture. I'd love for you to elaborate on that and where your head's at. And I think maybe ending up, Like, where are you going with this?

52:13 Like, what do you see the future of the Rebels? Because you guys are more than 10,000 strong. It's extraordinary. Like, you guys are probably the single biggest collective of restorers, period, in the industry right now. I don't think it's even close. Not even kind of close. Yeah. It's huge. Different sport. Yeah. So describe that shift and contractor connection. Maybe that's a good jump off point, you know, to... You know, describe where you're at, man. Thank you for that. I appreciate that. I would feel weird if I didn't know the craft, right? I would feel weird getting in front of this group of, a lot of these guys are super sophisticated, right? There's a lot of hillbillies in there, but those are smart hillbillies.

52:56 But, you know, just because we're, you know, rah, rah, rah doesn't mean we're not smart. There's some really intelligent operators in our group. imposter syndrome comes to mind if I didn't know my craft. So I have pride in myself on, yeah, I want to know the latest technology. I want to be the best at something. Since Xactimate has been my thing, my world, really, since 2012, that is something I am able to step into and really talk about authoritatively and let that subject matter authority bleed over into my, my leadership authority. But that leadership, I really don't like talking about myself in this way, but I'm going to get through it because it sounds like, sounds like I'm self-important, but I believe that the leadership tool, you know, a leader is a tool.

53:49 A leader is a tool to get an organization from one place to another. And that tool needs to take different shape as the organization changes, as the reality changes. So early on, there needed to be a megaphone and there needed to be a pitchfork and maybe a bonfire. There needed to be something of, hey, hello, hey, we're here. We matter and this is affecting us in a major way. We've done that. We've got the attention. Now it needs to be, how do we shepherd this? How do we use this energy to the best of the collective? And the interest of the collective is not best served by everyone just throwing pitchforks at each other.

54:34 Yeah. You know, back to my analogy about the river. We did our splashing and everything else. Now it's time to be intentional. How do we affect the industry going forward? And I think it's going to be, you know, we can talk about how I think it's going to change. So the industry is going to change in significant ways. And if we have time, we can go into it. Yeah. But I had a conversation with a senator in Tennessee last week. Who else was on that call last week? Ed freaking Cross. And what were we talking about? Real legislation to change the map on how claims are handled in the state of Tennessee. The future of this industry is in legislation.

55:16 Yeah. The future of the industry is in making the rules better fit the end user, the insured, and by... by proxy, the contractor that's servicing the insured. Look at Florida. Florida is bought by the carriers. The governor is bought by the carriers. And it's no coincidence that it's really hard to get paid and make a good living in the state of Florida as a restorer. We don't want that to bleed over into the rest of the states. So we have to take a more active role in our own lives. And that is going to involve politicking. That's going to involve one of the takeaways from this meeting last week with Ed Cross and the state senator was we need to hire a lobbyist.

56:01 And if we need to hire a lobbyist in Tennessee, we've got to hire a lobbyist in all 50 states because that's how insurance works in this country. So that's where the future, we need to move meaningfully forward quickly. Because the other side, the carriers are already on this game. The carriers are already, they've got their treasures. They've been there for entry. Yeah. Exactly. They've got a head start. Yeah. It doesn't mean we can't do our own thing. Yeah. You know, I just want to throw a couple things out there and I want to hear kind of your perspective on them. Most of these things, I think Chris and I are fairly unified on.

56:42 They're things that we don't necessarily always hyper-focus on, but... There's some values. And I think that people have heard us talk about RIA this way. And I've even had clients who've kind of balked at us and at me when I talk about the RIA in such positive light. And we've been honest with their leadership when we engage them. And they're honest about their story arc as well. And my clients normally push back because they're like, I've never really experienced anything meaningful being a part of that. So I'm not sure what you're all hyped up about. And so I will start talking about, well, there's real meaningful change happening in their leadership. There's meaningful development with the advocacy group and what that team is going to do and represents for us.

57:23 And they don't quite buy what I'm selling, mainly because first, when they look at previous experience, there's nothing concrete for them to point to. Yep. That says, oh, that makes sense because they've done it before, which is fine. But again, I think it goes back to the grace piece. They got to change too. Yes. Right. Right. But I think what it also tells me is that we still are caught up in this, what is it that we can do right now that will create an immediate impact of positive for me? And I think what we need to understand, and I think that your voice, and I think potentially getting the rebels as a group engaged, I'm going somewhere with this, is really powerful from the sense that we need to begin engaging and investing our time and energy to, for the strategic opportunity of the future.

58:14 And when I say strategic, what I mean is this is on the horizon. This is the legacy game. This is the game that protects us, our companies, and our future generation restorers. But the work has to be done now, even though we may very well go the rest of our careers and not actually experience a material result from that endeavor. Great point. And so there's this maturing that has to happen with about our expectations. And I think one of the things that we get stuck in, and quite honestly, just to be transparent with you, the reason your kind of online presence used to piss me off is that all in brotherly love, right?

58:56 Is that I felt like here's this guy that if I'm honest, I would be technically intimidated by. And yet, like his voice is pissing in the wind. Because every time we walk up and say, when we start hefting rounds over the bow of our competitor or the other side of the negotiation table, in my mind, strategically, I just kept saying, man, that's a fucking huge step backwards. Like, here's a guy that's technically recognized for his competency, has chosen to be a loud voice. And it feels like what he's presenting is just damaging to negotiations. It's short-sighted. Obviously, you've come out of that and you're beginning to come more out of that.

59:37 When I say that, what do you think or how does that strike you in terms of your relationship to the rebels and the rebels' relationship as an entity to our industry? How's that land with you? And I kind of, I mean, a little bit of a barf, but I think you felt where I was going. Sure. Oh, I get it. And that's, I respect that. There is, you attract more bees with honey than vinegar. And starting out any conversation or negotiation with a fuck you is going to get you nowhere. Yeah. And I realized that I was at the point where my fuck you was entering the door before I even got out of the car. Yeah. And that's not a good thing.

1:00:18 Yeah. Especially if I want to bring people together and start having really substantive conversations. They can't hear me. And so I believe that it's going to be a matter of time. There has to be some time. Yeah. Between what I have said and what I'm saying now. Yeah. For people to actually hear what I'm saying now. Yeah. And the restorers that are in the Restoration Rebel group are still restorers. Each and every one of those guys and girls has a business to run and has profit needs and goals. the low-hanging fruit of quick-hit actionable items to get quick results is gone.

1:00:59 I agree with you wholeheartedly. We are in the time of we have to start doing some foundational work that we may not see the benefit of. but the industry will. And that is going to be a hard shift. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, we're all freaking selfish. Yeah. And surviving. I think most of us feel like we're surviving. We're surviving. Let alone do we have tactical energy to give to this bigger cause. Look at the industry. The industry in a whole is down 30% year over year. There's a lot of companies that are not going to survive this year because of a lot of things, not the least of which is a severe shift in the claims environment. There are significantly less claims today than there were this time last year.

1:01:41 Because homeowners, the rates are going up. They're afraid of getting dropped. There's a hundred different reasons why claims are down. But none of them benefit us as restores. It's a really hard environment to survive. You guys have a client base. What's your experience this year as far as revenue and volume? I think probably for... It's probably safe to say for a majority of restorers, both in our client book and outside. What we're hearing is the majority, flat, Some people are losing and are frustrated. And then there's still winners, of course. There's people that have their niche. They've got their system and they're growing.

1:02:23 One of the things that we're hearing, and of course I saw this in the insurance industry back in 2012, and my buddies who are still agency owners and so forth, I think you hit it on the head. One of the trends that is probably not going to swing back at least in the near term, is rising deductibles. And part of that's driven by the increases in premiums, especially coastal cities. It's dramatic, right? Wildfire prone areas, California. I mean, there's just lots of examples with climate change for whatever reason is driving wildfire risk. And so premiums are going up across the board Because companies have taken so much losses from the wildfires and increase in hurricane activity over the last five years.

1:03:08 And so with those deductibles, people are either choosing to raise their deductibles to decrease their premium or like State Farm back in 2012, just before I left the industry, State Farm was mandating on all new business, 1% deductibles on homeowners policies. Now, I don't know if they've reversed that or... Nor is it that. Yeah, now it may be 2%, right? So I've heard of that with some carriers. So people are being affected by that, right? Of course, and we end up talking about this a lot. And from a sales standpoint is, how do we have to modify our approach with insurance agents to still try and capture some business from that market. And it's certainly becoming a much more sophisticated game now versus, you know, back in the day because of the centralization of claims, the fact that people aren't filing as many claims because they may have a $4,500 deductible they have to meet and they're just, they're cobbling together a cleanup or repair with their buddy and their neighbor and their uncle who does construction rather than going through the traditional claims process like we've had for the last 25, 30 years.

1:04:16 Pushback comes on to the contractor to find some way to help compensate for, which we all know the dangers in that, both fiscally and legally. Yeah. I'm wondering if you're wanting to go here. So here's this kind of this thought I'm rumbling around in my head as I'm hearing you talk, Andy, about this story arc and kind of the journey is, I think there's an opportunity for us to begin articulating or practicing almost the new message. You mentioned this just a couple minutes ago, this idea of like, you know, I've seen, you've seen personally, like it's going to take a different tact for us to create progress.

1:04:58 If it's cool with you guys, I want to start talking through that track. Like what is it that you're beginning to shift in your messaging? What's important to you? in terms of what you're communicating. And I think if it's appropriate, I'd like to contribute to that too, just in terms of where our head is as an operation, as consultants, like what's the kind of message we're beginning to teach and send out into the industry as well. So just kind of where's your head? Like what is the message that you feel like has to be getting presented? Well, we have to increase our professionality as organizations significantly. There are still, I still see every single day, my niche for customers that come in through my doors tends to be the $500,000, $2 million operator.

1:05:48 Some of these guys are still working off a notepad. Yeah. Right? Take digital photos. Yeah. Type stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But it comes down to one of the first things I talk about, and I'm not an attorney, but I end up talking about these things is, hey, let's get your contracts dialed. Let's look at, do you have a schedule of fees in place? Is that schedule of fees tied to your contract in a meaningful way? Does your contract have any penalties on it? I've said it before, and I'll say it again. We're not really restores. We're freaking contractors. What's the basis of being a contractor? Yeah. freaking contract. Yeah. How many people are operating on these fugazi, flimsy work authorizations?

1:06:30 Yeah. Yeah, don't get Ed Cross started on work authorizations. Yeah, right. Okay. But you need to have a contract in place. And just like the contract that exists between the insured and the insurance company, the policy is a contract. You need a contract with your client. And then it becomes, how do you enforce that contract? You need to do high quality work. You need to document to a level that you may have never had been asked to document. Prep for trial, right? You have to prep every single file you need to anticipate is going to be read out loud in front of a jury. If you're not approaching every single job you do in that fashion, the future state, you don't exist.

1:07:12 Because you're going to be wiped out. I think... Okay. So it's so funny, man. Because when I'm thinking about asking that question, I'm like, professionalism of the industry, right? And I think that's a theme that is becoming... It's huge. Super common. Okay. So I've got a theory around this or perspective. In my mind, what I've seen in the past, and even now, we're part of the rebels, right? So we're... get on the group and we see the kinds of conversations. We don't always actively contribute, I would say, but we're watching the conversation. And I think a theme that I recognize is rightful frustration, but then not entirely sure A, how to ask the question.

1:07:54 And then B, it seems as if we get a lot of piling on instead of meaningful contribution. And I think that's part of the maturing that's going to end up inevitably happening within the group in the industry. Because it's not just the rebels. That's just us in general in this industry, I think. And so it's like the rightful frustration I see. There is real reasons why young and older business owners are frustrated with the gap between what they perceived and wanted to do with their business and the realities that the industry has presented and or made them face. And so I feel like part of this transition in our story as restorers and as a unified group is one...

1:08:37 We need to continue to have hard conversations around the stuff that doesn't make sense. It doesn't seem fair. It's frustrating. It's creating friction in our business. It's creating a lack of alignment of our intention versus what we're able to live out. I want to hear more of that. And in fact, those kinds of conversations need to become far more tabletop versus under the table. I feel like in many ways, you guys are already mirroring that. And that's a good... That's the parts, I think, of the model that really resonate in a positive way. I think now, though, as an industry, we have to begin elevating the expectation on the restorer before they come to the barter table and say, okay, if we are going to adopt extreme ownership in our behavior...

1:09:27 It means first we have to look at the things that we're challenged by, frustrated by, and not seeing the result we want and say, what about this can I own first? So that by the time we come to talk to a carrier about the frustrations we have, they don't point back at the back end of your business and identify you rarely turn in documentation on time. You don't have any notes that talk about communication with the client or decision-making and Your billing's not transparent. It often comes in 14 different ways, depending on what one of your team members happens to present it. Six weeks later. Six weeks later, right? Like there's, as a business, first, I think we need to hold ourselves accountable to professionalizing our company to the point where when we step to the negotiation table, we can have a bold chest that's sustained by confidence, not by ego, then we can have meaningful dialogue.

1:10:22 But it's like, I think my frustration with us as an industry is we start and we're very capable of talking about all the shit we don't like. But dude, Chris and I wouldn't have a business if people did what they were supposed to do. As I say that, kind of like, where's your head go in relationship to the rebels, right? And Chris, you too. I kind of cut you off earlier. I want to talk about the concept of quality of earnings. But Chris, you have something to say first. Well, I just, I think... I think sometimes the conversation really quickly, like in, in various groups and when we get to conferences and stuff and the sideline conversations, one of the places that we tend to land as an industry is in this victim sort of narrative, right?

1:11:05 These, these things are happening to us and we're just trying to make the best of it. And, and, and yeah, yeah. The, the, the locus of control is outside of, of me and this is beyond my control. And I, And of course, there is some truth to that. There are some external things that we don't have control over that are affecting us at times in some pretty negative ways. And you and I've talked about this before, Andy. Brandon and I, back in our early operating days, as TPA started to really come onto the scene, we had some experience with them and we made money with them. And I still remember one of our early leadership meetings because we were having some early, some significant frustrations with one of the programs that we were in.

1:11:50 And I remember Brandon kind of leading out in the meeting and saying, look guys, we can bitch and moan, right? Or what if? Like, what if we designed systems and standards in our business that satisfied their demands And we just deployed that system and those standards across all of our customer base. We have a single system that satisfies these cumbersome, frustrating, irritating demands and requests in terms of reporting and photo documentation and all this stuff. Is that going to help us or hurt us? And we ultimately realized, gosh, if we can deliver service at the standard these TPAs are demanding... Well, our typical claim with Mr. and Mrs. Jones from Bob Johnson State Farm, we're going to be that much better at delivering service and that much more profitable if we're monitoring ourselves and our behavior and we're following a set process on all of these other jobs.

1:12:58 this would be our recommendation. This is an opportunity in many ways to fine tune your system and to create some consistency within your teams and your processes. And that overall is going to help you become a more profitable entity. How much, what percentage of your business are you going to allow to be TPAs? Well, that's a worthwhile conversation, right? But I think that professionalizing our businesses, I think a lot of the industry, and I'm not just targeting restoration rebels and even just the small guys, Like when I first started consulting pre-floodlight, I had a roofing contractor that I worked with. And this is like, they were very successful. They were four or five years in. They were $6, $7 million a year.

1:13:39 Like a very successful business, making money. I asked them one of my first meetings. I had the two owners, the two partners sitting there with me at their house and... And I was like, so talk to me about your gross margins and your EBITDA. You know, what kind of net? Where are you guys at? And they just looked at me. They're like, huh, let me think about that. Can you spell that? And ultimately, they couldn't tell me what their net was. They said, well, you know, we had like 450 grand in the bank at the end of last year. Oh, dear. Yeah. And so we figured, which admittedly, right, to a lot of the blue-collar owners, it's like that is a sign of success. You got $450,000 in cash sitting in the bank.

1:14:20 No doubt about it. But I think that's just an example of it's possible to have, quote, successful businesses and believing a lot on the table. And then when some external forces start to make your life difficult, you know, You can be like bitching and moaning about those external forces, all the while missing all of the various ways that you could be improving your profitability, your cash flow, your sales, that could be driving your business forward in a bunch of other ways. But instead, hyper-focusing on adjusters, the carrier this, the TP, you know what I mean? Yeah, 100%. We have this focus instead of having a wider focus on our business, right?

1:15:06 What can I control? And just- That was a very, very mature observation on your point. Well, you know, sometimes we fall forward, Andy, sometimes. Do you want to throw out a disclaimer here? I want to be very clear that Chris and I are not labeling the collective rebels as only businesses that are not perfect. No, there are- No, I said that. No, no, no, no. I said that. I'm not- No, no, no. Yeah. I mean, there are some unbelievable operations that are part of that membership. So anyways. I spoke with a rebel, longtime rebel, like almost OG type. He was there at the beginning type guy at the show, Contractor Connection in Anaheim. He's doing 22 million. Nice. Yeah, yeah. He's doing mostly programs.

1:15:49 He's clearing set and he just laid his numbers out there. He's like, I'm doing 77% GP on Mint in the program. Wow. And I said, There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah. Great. Great business. Nothing wrong with that. Yeah. And Chris, what you just said mirrors exactly what Opie Amoraz told me three weeks ago. I said, hey, so what pro, you know, how many, your, your, how, what percentage programs? He said, you know, but you know, you get a 20, 25% programs or whatever he said. I said, so do you run, how do you run your program jobs versus your real jobs? And he says, I don't run anything differently. What the programs force us to do, which is exactly what you just said, it raises the bar for everything we do.

1:16:33 And we just run everything at that level. Like, okay, good. The thing about complaining about the TPAs, there's some things in your life, in the world, you can't control. But what you can control is your reaction to it. Yeah. Yeah. And if your reaction to it is to complain, well, you're going to stay where you're at. Yeah. But if your reaction is to, okay, how do I, I need to learn this game better. Yeah. I need to understand the rules, the deeper level. I need to play this game at a higher level than my competition. And at this point, my competition is the actual TPA. Yep. Guess what? You guys are playing chess. You're playing the same exact game. You're on just two sides of the table. Just be a better freaking player. Yeah.

1:17:14 Make the money. Yeah, and I think that's the real opportunity potentially too with maybe some, again, I don't want to say shift in messaging, but just getting better at highlighting the other messaging that's getting spread within the Rebel community. Because if you do look at the exchanges between members, there's a ton of meaningful coaching and support that happens. Oh, it's awesome. It's freaking awesome. Yeah. It's awesome. And there's veterans on top of veterans that are able to jump in and share a quick message or share a quick version of what they're doing. You get a lot of people in the rebel community that are trying things that look very outside of the box, which is awesome because they're testing.

1:17:57 They're action biased, probably, by nature. And so they're trying stuff. And it's not always going to work. It's not always going to turn into the thing. But the fact that they're experimenting makes us all better. So there's like all these tangible awesomeness associated with a 10,000 member group Do you have a vision for how that group maybe, I don't want to use language, specific language or force you to, do you have a vision in your mind of how that group can continue to be a heavy, heavy unified influence on our industry, but maybe begin shifting some of that posture or the stance that maybe they've been recognized or categorized under in the past?

1:18:39 I think a lot of it can be self-policing. And I think a lot of the outliers, we are actively pushing them out. So there's folks that used to preach some really bad things. Like, I'm not going to say his name, but I'm going to say muddy scope. And if you're in the rebels, you know what a muddy scope means. And the whole idea of, building your business process in a way that obfuscates your billing, makes it harder for the adjuster to read your billing, That's not what we're about. We're about transparency. So I think the group moving forward, I think we are maturing as a group, but you're also talking about trying to lasso a freaking tornado here.

1:19:25 Yeah. Right? Do you control where the tornado goes? No. But can you maybe set up some big buildings and influence it? That's how I look at it. I'm like... I am not going to tell this thing where to go, but I'm going to put my energy into it and I'm going to kind of do one of these. And I think collectively we have enough, there's enough maturity. The other thing is we don't have, there's no leadership group of the rebels and intentionally or not, that's what we are today. And I don't, I'm not in the mood to try to change that. I'm not going to try to put some sort of board in place and, you know, we're going to get, no. Yeah. Because I think that would defeat too much of what we have, which is just truly magical.

1:20:09 Yeah. You're right. There's solid gold nuggets being laid down every single day. Yeah. Like, it's free consulting. And people don't really understand the value of that because they're not paying anything for it. Yeah. It's a free Facebook group. And part of the advice that's given every day is helping people avoid very expensive mistakes. Yeah. 100%. In their businesses. Yeah. Yeah. And something hit me on the way over. I was thinking about, man, my hair is getting really long. I should try to cut it. But then I was like, you know what? I'm trying something new here. And no one is going to give me, no one is going to give us permission to be great. You ask the world, I want to do something great. Well, great means different. Great means scary.

1:20:50 Great means I can't control the outcome. Great means risk, first and foremost. No one's going to give you permission to take that risk. We have to choose to be great on our own. And yeah, I have great hair. I'm going to rock the great hair. You have great hair. Yeah, it kind of pisses me off. But if I ask somebody, hey, should I grow out my hair? The answer is no. I went for an interview last week, a local restorer in Bend. And my wife was like, you should probably cut your hair. I'm like, why would I do that? Well, because you're going to perform. But guess what? I walked in. And one of the guys interviewing me had a freaking huge ponytail and was wearing flip-flops. I was like, all right. I'm in. I'm in. Yeah.

1:21:31 Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think that that in and of itself is a fairly mature approach. It's not turning this into a self-serving, I'm now the collective voice for all of you speaking on your behalf. Yeah, I think that's awesome. I think when I see the collective energy, I mean, we have clients that are part of that rebel community and they're sophisticated operators. They're people that we trust and respect a lot. I'm excited. Let me just say that. I'm just going to come out and fucking say this. If there's rebels listening, meaning influencers within that community, I think my ask is, please allow the industry to see what all the rebels as a community are capable of doing.

1:22:17 And so my petition is, and us being part of that community too, is... Can we collectively begin to mature or shift our voice in such a way that the audience has an easier time trying to hear the purpose behind what we're saying? Because I think if as a community, 10,000 members, if that group were to show up at events, if they were to get behind, let's say, some of the collective voices, voices at RIA, what happens? What happens when 10,000 restorers focused on the outcome versus how they feel about it?

1:22:59 What begins to happen then? That's the place I go. Every time I think about Andy and the Rebels, my head goes to this place of, what would happen when all of those guys and gals, those operators go, you know what? As of this moment, We are now going to be focused on the outcome versus our ego. Then the communication shifts, the approach shifts, and then all of a sudden the results shift. What would happen, dude? What if the RIA ranks swelled by 10,000 members because the rebels decided, you know what? They have an advocacy group. They've got a leadership board that's a tool, that's a resource for us to deploy in our membership. And they entered into a partnership with RIA.

1:23:41 What the fuck would happen then? I think the earth would open up and swallow us whole. Right? Like, I just kind of freak out, you know, when I think about that. I think there's so much power in that group. There is. It's scary. In the end, how do you harness something like that? I think you harness it by not harnessing it. Yeah. Your guys' voice is... other people like us coming in, lending your energy into the group. That's the only influence we can hope to have. Yeah. Speaking from, you know, personally, I want to do more of that. I respect so many of those members. And again, I think as we view the community, we're like, gosh, this is a massive movement that's now been in, I mean, shoot, it's been around for a long, long time.

1:24:30 I mean, there's just a wide breadth of skill and competency within that group. I think it's amazing. That's insane. Yeah. It's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. So to land the plane, we were at the top of the hour. Andy, just, you know, thank you to you, man. I mean, through all of these sort of this evolution, these transitions that you've had in your career, you know, you've dedicated a lot of years of your life to maintaining, supporting, contributing to that rebels group. And I, like, like, like we've said, and I, a number of times, like there's a lot of really high value interaction that's happening there. I mean, every single day, I mean, you mentioned some of the posts that some of the threads that get started in, in restoration rebels will have 15,000 interactions.

1:25:16 It's like, there is, there is no other forum like that in the industry right now. And I watch it all the time. Every single day I'm seeing it. And occasionally like, especially relative to sales and commercial sales, whenever I can, I jump in and we'll contribute to the conversation and But there is just, I would say the majority of interactions within the Restoration Rebel group, for those of you that aren't in it for whatever reason right now on Facebook, are tactical, guidance-giving, advice-giving, answers. People are like, hey, I have this kind of loss scenario. I'm not sure quite how to do this. What do people recommend? And boom, like in some cases, dozens of answers will come up from other experienced relationships.

1:26:00 stores. I mean, it is really cool to see that. And so, and I know that it's no small amount of labor on your part, moderating that and, you know, kind of keeping, keeping the bumpers, you know, in place to where things don't get out of hand and all that kind of stuff. It's a big deal. So appreciate your leadership in the industry, dude. And really appreciate this conversation. I think I also just want to say, man, you've been incredibly vulnerable. Yeah. And you've shared a lot personally about your journey and the alcoholism piece, which I think is a great service to the industry. I think a lot of times as business owners and professionals, especially in this kind of blue collar services environment, that alcohol culture is...

1:26:43 is still incredibly pervasive. And I think a lot of other restorers like you have felt like it's just something you gotta, you just gotta do. It's just part of the culture. And I think it takes a lot of courage on your part to share that part of your story and I hope it resonates with others and that others maybe will be prompted to find help, go find an AA meeting, right? To take a step to move forward from there, you know? Call me, I'm not hard to find. It's awesome, dude. Yeah. Awesome show, man. Hey, listeners, thanks for hanging out with us. Obviously, if there's anything that you heard in this that motivates you or an opportunity for you to share the message with some of your fellow restorers or peers in the industry, please do point them towards the rebels and the meaningful conversations that are happening there.

1:27:30 If you're not a member of that group, don't get caught up in the name. Understand that there's a lot of independent restorers that are winning there and they're happy to share their experience and their knowledge with you. And it's a well-protected group. It's not an ad pitch or a constant spam of marketing. So... And Andy, you have a few different businesses that you're engaged in. Where should people go if they want to connect with professional Andy, service provider to the restoration industry? Where do you want us to send people? Where should they go get you if they want some of your estimating services or some of the other things you provide? Look me up on LinkedIn first. Let's start there. Andrew G. And then I've got a button you can click to get 15 minutes on my calendar.

1:28:12 There you go. Cool. Well worth it. Right on. Okay, guys. Thanks for hanging out with us. All right, everybody. Thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart, and Boots. And if you're enjoying the show, but you love this episode, please hit follow, formerly known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn. Share it via text, whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.