Ep 36 - The Old Fool Syndrome, With Trisha Welstad

0:00 Hey, brother. Hey, dude. So we have a friend and a guest. Guest and a friend. Yeah. More friend. Lots of guests. Anyways, interesting person. I think the conversation was really fun. It ended up going quite a few different directions, but there was certainly a common thread. Yeah, it was really good. I didn't know what to expect, to be honest. When we had a brief chat, you've got more history with Tricia, but I just gave away the name. Yeah, you did. Stole my thunder. Yeah. But she does. She covers a lot of ground with her coaching and some of the consulting and teaching and training and stuff she does. And so we did. We went all over the place. But it all had a common theme.

0:40 I think we talked about limiting beliefs and how we can settle into a way of seeing things and seeing ourselves that can really hold us back. we talked about old fool's syndrome. Yeah. Which is like, yeah, we'll leave. We'll let people wait for that. Let it hang. Yeah. Yeah. The old fool's syndrome. Everybody will relate to it when they hear it. Even young people. Yeah. You know, she's an eclectic person. I mean, she's been a professor, ordained minister in the free Methodist church. She's, owned companies and worked with students and worked with executives, all the things. Yeah. It's interesting too, a doctorate in leadership and global perspectives.

1:23 And you hear some of that. You hear just this broader picture perspective of us humans and and how we interact together. And I think it's super applicable to us as employers and really even to those companies that we're serving a role in. There's an interesting piece where we dive into a little bit like, whose job is it anyways to affect the environment that we are currently working in. So we go all over the place. She's got a really interesting perspective and approach and has spent a lot of times dealing with folks and young leaders as they really dive into their perspective on their vocation and what they're going to do with their lives and how to get re-fired up and refueled with what you want to focus your time and your life's journey on.

2:06 So anyways, it's a good chat. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the Head, Heart, and Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brandon. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. I don't know. What'd you think? I don't know. It's kind of serious. Should we laugh? Yeah. Hey, Trisha, we are really excited to have you. We're going to cover a lot of ground just based on some of the previous conversations we've had together. So anyways, hey, thanks for taking the time to join us.

2:47 We're pumped to have you. I'm glad to be here. I got, as you know, and the secret's out for a lot of our listeners, we do record our intros separately. So you haven't heard the juicy tidbits that we lay down about you. But anyways, even with that, I think it's important to hear from you. like your focus, where you're hanging, the things that really have you fired up right now as you're working with emerging leaders. And I think when we get in with our questions, we're going to definitely maybe get some background from you as well. But can you just kick us off by just giving us like, hey, what's driving you right now? And really, where are you focused as a leader developer? Sure. Happy to. So I direct the Leadership Center.

3:29 It's my own business, which is primarily a coaching business. And I coach women and men. And I'm very clear about both people groups, not just women, on clarifying their own sense of calling or their sense of purpose in the world. Maybe an easier way to think of it is purpose creating meaning for them as they do their work in the world. It helps... for them to know who they are before they move toward what they do in the world. So I do a lot of coaching around that and just executive level leadership. I've worked inside and outside of the church, nonprofits, business for the last 25 years. And so there's a lot of different experiences that I've had.

4:10 So I get to support people in that. So those are a few things. I would say that what I really, really love and feel like a lot of excitement around right now is helping people move through their own limitations. A lot of people feel stuck in a mindset of, well, I can't do that. I'm not smart enough. I don't have the education. I'm too old. I'm too, I'm not enough of whatever. And so there's a lot of that that hangs people up. that then keeps them from where their deep joy meets the world's deep need. And so, and I'm quoting Frederick Buechner on that, like that sense of like, where you find your greatest sense of passion and fulfillment in your life doesn't come from making a lot of money that might relieve our stress.

4:57 It comes from doing what we're made to do, being who we're made to be. And so helping free people up to live into that and get really strategic and active on that is what it's all about for me right now. you kind of focused on something or added some clarity that we're working with both males and females. What's fueling that comment? What's behind that? Yeah. Well, I'm a woman. And so I can't get around that. And I'm okay with that. But being a woman who's worked in an industry primarily with men, many different ministries, actually, very explicitly, and other businesses... that have been primarily male fields, there's this assumption sometimes that, oh, you're a coach or a pastor for women because women haven't been in some of the predominant roles that men have.

5:48 But what I have realized in all that is that we all function better. And we actually in business, business proves this. There's a lot of research around this, that we all do better when there's an equity among us all and a partnership. And so a lot of men and women don't have women leaders in their life. And I think that both benefit when they have women leading them, facilitating development for them, not just same, make, same, make, same. So our industry, disaster restoration is the primary industry that obviously that we serve. Very blue collar, obviously service oriented, very male dominated. And I would say there's two primary divisions that a lot of companies that we associate with and work around will have.

6:34 And one of them is this contents cleaning or cleaning divisions. And what is really common is to walk into a company and see that the mitigation, emergency services, and construction is all predominantly male-filled roles. And then this contents cleaning or cleaning aspect of the business is almost predominantly female. Yeah. oriented. And the reality of it is some of that is people coming in. They're almost putting themselves into those categories. But clearly, us as leaders and company owners have also continued to facilitate that. And you saying that both men and women need to learn how to be led by women better.

7:16 Can we just hang there for a minute? What does that mean from your perspective? And what are some of the mindsets, if you will, or some of the things that we should be cognizant when we're thinking about, hey, we need to have women leaders. And what is that going to look like in a male-dominant industry still? Yeah. Yeah, totally. As you're talking, it made me think about when I was about 20 years old and I worked at a glass company, like they installed windows and I was the only female on the crew and I was not an admin. I was installing windows with the guys. It was just me and all the boys. And so anyways, that's just like a little side thing.

7:57 But I was like, oh yeah, that's the same kind of thing, doing labor. Yeah. So there's history around all of this, of course. Like there's a history of women take on cleaning and like even exactly what you're talking about. Men do hard labor. Women do not as hard of labor or different kind of labor. So there's that. But there's also this sense of we have divided things so much by gender roles. that there's just an expectation. Well, they did this, so I'm going to do this. So that I don't see any women in this place. So women don't belong in this place. I don't see any men in this place. So men can't be cleaning or maids at hotels.

8:38 I think of all the different kinds of things where we have a real division between men and women in different industries. And it's just that like begets like a lot of times. And there's a need to break out of that I don't say that like, oh, women need to do everything men need to do. It's just, there's more creativity and there's more opportunity, more diversity. And maybe... a better morale and a better sense of workspace when it gets mixed up. But that's really challenging to overcome for every industry. I mean, it doesn't matter if you're in blue collar or white collar. Like it just doesn't matter. Because what happens when you have an industry dominated by one gender, then you bring someone else in.

9:25 And especially if you do it... Well, I'm just gonna go here. If you do it, men have had the most power and privilege in our whole society for all of our history. And we know that because we've only ever had male presidents and we've only had historically male CEOs and male doctors and like you go on and on and on in every industry. And it's changed over time to where you have more female teachers and female nurses, doctors and all the other things. But when women who have had more of a subordinate role or not been in leadership come into a place where men are, then if there's not an equal number of them, they tend, well, they tend to statistically, they will just become more male.

10:12 They will have to behave more male in the space to be accepted and to be validated in the space. Oh, wow. To be viewed as qualified alongside their male colleagues. Kind of falls into that same versus equal. Yes. Like instead of finding value as an equal, we end up kind of forcing people to look the same, right? Is that what I'm hearing you say, Alora? Yeah. Women will do it to themselves. Like when I mentioned that motif of me being on a crew with all the men, I had to be strong. I couldn't complain. I, and I didn't complain because that's not who I am. But I knew that there were certain things I couldn't talk about.

10:54 There were certain ways I couldn't exactly be because I'm working with all the guys. They don't even understand. So it's not even necessarily malicious intent or ill will. It's like, it's perspective, a lack thereof, right? Is what you say a little bit. Yeah. And if you want to achieve, I mean, if you're somebody who is, I could use the word minority, like if you're someone who's not like the rest in a space coming into it, You want to belong and you want to make sure that you're valued as part of the team. I mean, you want to get paid. Like literally just you want to get paid. So then you're going to behave in a way that will help you be accepted in that space. Can you actually bring some color to that?

11:35 What from a woman executive's perspective... What are some of the concessions that you as a woman who's been in multiple leadership roles, what does that look like, sound like as a female kind of entering those ranks or in a male dominated environment? What are those some of those concessions or ways that you just sort of assimilate into that male environment? What are some of the parts of yourself that you kind of set aside or give up to match up with that male environment? Okay. That depends on the type of environment it is. When I think in like academic ways and like, so I'm a pastor and I've been a professor as well, like some speaking and different things.

12:17 Like it's a matter of how I speak, like what I say, what I don't say, how many emotional terms do I use? Like how much mothering do I talk about? How much female content, like in the sense of like things that men might not relate to versus women would totally relate to in the way of family, childbearing, monthly cycles. I mean, any of those kinds of things. Like they're just the norm. They're not shameful, but you don't talk about those things. I just have to say, I'm not trying to make light of this, but I've had plenty of employees that were cycling and they weren't females. Sorry about that.

12:58 Okay. It stuck out to me. Sorry. Go ahead, Trudia. I apologize. I mean, everyone... We're all biology. Right. Part of all of us. Like, yeah. Anyway. Yeah. And that's... Thank you, Brandon. Yeah. No problem mentioning that. I mean, and that's the thing is like, you pointed out, but like, I hesitated to even point that out. Because that's not something that women are comfortable talking about, unless they're really willing to be like, I don't care what anybody thinks of me, like in public space. And so we tailor our voice to be accepted. And that's the main thing. Oh, wow. That's heavy. That is the main thing. And every, like, if I'm with a bunch of guys and they're gruff, I'm going to be gruff and I'm going to cuss and I'm going to do the things and I'm going to act this certain way, but I'm not going to do that.

13:45 Or I'm going to like, sometimes, I mean, I've had bosses that are exceptional in a positive way that have been male. And I think, what would they do? What would they do to gain respect for? and trust with these other men. So that way I can like channel that towards my own growth and development in this space. Because what I know is that I'm not going to play basketball at lunch with the guys because I finished playing basketball in high school. So there are spaces that I don't dwell in that the guys dwell in together. And there's all this other stuff that happens. And so you have to do other things. That's kind of interesting.

14:27 Changing your voice, I guess. Or what was that term you used? Tailor? Yeah. You're tailoring your message. Part of that, I'm thinking, okay, well, that's just proactive communication methods. Sure. It's like, let's make sure we're speaking a language our audience can understand. And I understand that's not what you're referring to. But in that compromise or in that filtering, then the byproduct is as men in our industries, our respected career field, we're not hearing then this other perspective or we're not able to allow that to potentially have a really positive impact on our businesses. Actually, we got to be careful.

15:07 But we were just doing some visits with clients. And this team has a lot of female leadership in its ranks. And it is interesting, though, now that you're saying this, I'm almost wondering if we were experiencing that. So even as consultants, I'm wondering if we were seeing this filtered responses or filtered communication more or less about because of their lack of experience, maybe in a role... and more from the perspective of they're a female, and that they could be being optimistically cautious with what they're saying and how they're reporting on their experiences. What do we do with that? If we're becoming more aware that this bias exists, how do we intentionally step into that as leaders and business owners to overcome that in a non-cheesy way?

15:59 right way. Yeah. Like how as a man, Jim Dethmer talks about this a lot. He wrote the Conscious Leadership. Well, he started the Conscious Leadership Institute and there's, he's a book, 15 Habits of Conscious Leadership or something. And he talks about the value of the feminine, how critical it is, sort of the masculine and feminine energy inside business or any organization of any kind. But how is leaders, both men and women, do we embrace the feminine, right? What does that look like? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to say something, maybe I'm going to answer your question, but I want to say something a little bit before that. A part of this, it's very strategic too. It can be like to speak differently to when you like to know your audience, as you mentioned, Brandon.

16:44 Yeah. It's both, it's women are smart. It's being wise and knowing how to get what you want or need. Yeah. So it's not just survival, but it's also intelligence and all of that. I just wanted to note that. And sometimes we just don't even realize we're doing it. I think it just becomes habituated and normalized. And then you go, I don't do that. Then you realize when you're with a group of people who are just like you, the same embodiment, like it's different. You're in a different conversation. Yeah. Yeah. So how do we do that? I think that making some space for listening is valuable. And asking intentional questions. And now I don't mean like, hey, how's your mom group going necessarily?

17:27 Or whatever it is. But like inviting people into space where they're safe to talk about who they are. Because if you know one another, you start to build rapport with one another and really listen and ask questions about someone else, you're curious about someone else, then eventually if you don't keep talking and you allow them to and you actually ask interested questions, they'll share more of their life and it will change the dynamic. But you got to do that intentionally. Like it's... A hundred percent. And it almost, from my perspective, what we've seen is... That's like a muscle that requires strength training for most people, regardless of which side, male, female, or whatever.

18:10 There's just this, how do I learn to do that? And we see a lot of leaders intimidated by taking those initial steps. Yeah. And that's their own stuff. That's their own limiting beliefs at work. Why are you intimidated by listening to someone else? Oh, man. That might be the next episode that we do. I mean, from your perspective, working with all the different people that you have, what are you seeing? What is that? What would cause me to be cautious or to have fear around actually hearing someone else's perspective, especially someone that that may be really diverse from my perspective, regardless if it's economic or social or sex or whatever the case may be.

18:54 What are you seeing? I think there's a lot of fear around all of that. That's fear of loss, fear of like, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I haven't. It makes our own set of beliefs on shaky ground when people don't agree with us or when they have a different experience than we do. I mean, we are tribal people just at our core. We see this in all of society today that we find a side, we agree with that side, and then we choose to be around people who agree with us. And so then when there's somebody who's foreign to us or seems other to us, then they're unknown. And then they can be threatening to our tribal identity.

19:35 Like it's almost, it's easier to not know because once I know there's sort of a mandate, there's a requirement I do something about that. Right. So it's like, I almost don't want to know. how other people are feeling in a certain area or what they think about this course of action we're taking because I'm so committed to that course of action. I'm afraid to actually get people's input that it might derail us from this direction I want to go as a business leader or whatever. Yeah, well, and I think there's just this assumption that I've got to always evangelize people to my own way. Like if I believe something, whether it be political, personal, spiritual, and if somebody else doesn't, this is very American culture, if somebody else doesn't and that we have a conversation, then we're going to argue about it or I can't just take it in and let them be, I can't respect them, I have a hard time unless I have a hard time respecting them as who they are without trying to win them over to my way.

20:35 And that tends to come because we have anxiety in our own selves. So we are not at peace with something that is foreign to us. That's an interesting way to think about that. There is this, and we're going to dive more into this, I think, the longer the conversation goes, but there's just this really interesting dynamic between employee-employer right now, right? Which there's always been, right? I mean, rise of unions and all the different things that have happened over history. That's... not new. But it does seem like there's been a bit of a power shift. And that power shift has really put people on their heels as business owners and business leaders.

21:18 And I'm wondering what aspects of this that we're talking about right now really are coming in to play here. And I think you and I had chatted about this before. It's a dance. There's 2 partners, 2 sides of the coin, all the things here. But maybe we just start with that employer side in terms of what is this fear or what is this power shift causing in us as leaders that could be having a negative impact on our ability to make this shift and really create a more... I don't even know what the term is, but a more approachable environment to attract this current workforce to our team and keep them there.

21:59 Does that question make sense? I think so. Okay. Let's see what happens. Okay. My first answer, the first thing that comes to my mind is scarcity. Like, if we're not on the same page, if somebody is different than me, if like in this transition, will I lose? Yeah. Or I will lose. And I don't want to lose. Like, I don't want to lose money. I don't want to lose employees. I don't want to lose time. I don't want to lose assets, whatever the things are that we're thinking about. And so there's this thought that there's only so much that I have. So that's the first thing that came to my mind. So if you want to clarify or add anything else... I had a thought as you were saying that is, I think this whole time we chatted about it prior to going live here, but diversity, one of the things you work with companies and leaders on is this emerging concept of diversity, equity, and inclusion.

22:52 It's a big focus, especially amongst large companies and nonprofits and government sectors and stuff, right? Right. And I think a lot of us as small business leaders are struggling to see how that fits in in our small businesses. A lot of what we do as service companies is trying to get everybody on the same page. It's like a big part of leadership and management is getting everybody moving in the same direction at the same time with the same attitude. And that's a big part of what we're trying to do with culture is to get people to agree to common values. Yeah. and a shared vision and all that kind of stuff. And so I think sometimes when you have somebody who's divergent, we can label like they have a different opinion of how or even on the what we're doing.

23:38 It can feel like they're going against the grain and sabotaging where the team is trying to go. So they're ringing this bell off to the side of, I think this is important, or I think this should be different, or I don't agree with the way we're doing things. And there's a tendency for us to want to... Okay, you're messing up our mojo here. We're all together. You know what I mean? So I think sometimes there's this struggle between, wow, we're all trying to build these ruts, these lanes that we can all move forward in and diversity of opinions and information. input and perspective can slow that down or thwart that. Does that make sense? I think in my mind, when I think of diversity, equity, and inclusion, it's like, okay, what does inclusion actually look like?

24:22 And I can see the value of diversity. I have friends of all different stripes and experiences and I appreciate that. But in a company, we spend so much time getting everybody focused. and saying the same thing and doing the same behaviors. Can you speak to that a little bit? What does inclusion look like in that environment? Is it possible to have both where we're honoring other opinions, perspectives, and input, but still driving forward in this unified... You know what I mean? Yeah. I think that's a big question mark for a lot of business leaders. There's two different things at play. That's what I'm thinking about as you're talking about this. Well, there's the who I am piece. And then I work for this business or this organization.

25:04 And there's the values, the mission of the organization, the ways that we strategically do those things or very like just the job role and expectations with it there within that just because I come as a certain person and identity doesn't mean, and it might be different from yours or many of my other colleagues in the space, my coworkers, that That doesn't mean that we all can't work together to achieve the same mission and do the job that we've signed up for. I mean, most of the time, I mean, you apply, you're getting paid to do this set of things. That's not compromised. Shouldn't be compromised by my identity.

25:46 Now, there are things that can happen in that. So there's a whole other side to this. Like diversity is allowing for lots of people who are from various different race, ethnicity, background, gender, age, socioeconomic status, like accessibility, all the things. All of that, any of these people, if they are qualified to do the job, they can do the job. So that's a whole workspace thing where it's like we're getting on board with doing this thing. Now, from those positions of their own experience, they might have things that they'd say, oh, I'd like to bring this into the space. I think that this would help us to be better. Or I have an issue with this. Can we talk about it?

26:27 So then there's those types of conversations that can happen. And then there's another piece of it. I mean, there's lots of pieces of all of this. There's the piece of equity, which is not equality. It's not giving everybody a 10 speed to get the job done, like to get to the destination. Because if you have somebody who is a para quadriplegic, that's not going to work for them. But they might be qualified for the job. Or if you have someone who is much shorter than other folks, that's not going to work for them. You can't give them the same size bike. So it's removing the hurdles for everyone to be able to do the job together. Hmm. And so you can create unity around what the shared mission and vision is, which I don't know that organizations speak out loud a lot.

27:11 And we have to say the vision and the expectations and what the mission is, like hold that before us often. Otherwise, people are doing whatever they want to do. They're doing whatever is right in their own mind to focus on, or they have no clue. And so then it's like, this is just a, I just am here for a paycheck. I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. So from your perspective, what you're seeing is there's two things happening almost. And we tend to kind of bundle them all into the same bucket. And one is we as leaders need to be really dialed in on our ability to create a clear vision for where we're going. What's the why? What's the mission? Right. And then very loosely holding on to how we achieve that.

27:55 Because that's where some of that diversity and inclusiveness comes to play. It's the, okay, we know what the mission is. That's not actually up for debate. And that's okay. But how we get there, the physical steps, if you will, or the strategies that we put into play, that's that opportunity for that diversity to come in and to practice. Is that accurate? Yeah. Yes, and I'm trying to think of very tangible examples as you talk about that. I think, okay, what does restoration really look like? Or I think about another experience I had in a manufacturing company with engineering and all these other pieces to it, that there's always room for there to be conversation if you allow for it in your strategy and tactics for how to do that, for how to execute your work.

28:42 Even if the actual work doesn't change, Like you're doing the same thing every time you know, okay, we're going to go in, we're going to remove these things, we're going to mitigate this, we're going to do these changes, we're going to clean in this way. This is what we do. But there are always things around it. There can be conversation or potential for growth development on. And if you allow for it, there can be different ways of seeing that you won't see as the one who's maybe in charge. This is also where I think people have a challenge because they, even I experienced this too. Like, I think, oh, I'm supposed to know it all. I'm supposed to have it all together and know the things I'm the one in charge.

29:25 And so then there's this fear of like, well, if I will look like I don't have it all together, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm not a good leader. Like limiting beliefs, once again, if I don't just dictate to everybody, that's what we're going to do. And it's faster to do it that way. A lot of times we own all the stress and all the things, but it tends to be quicker. Yeah. But in the end, it's not better. So yeah, that's really good. Okay, so here's a question. Can you help us with some language as leaders in those settings where we're trying to honor all the people at the table in terms of their perspective, their beliefs, their opinion, their perspective, etc. ? What is a good way to honor the person providing that feedback while at the same time, maybe not changing course based on their feedback?

30:11 Because how do you negotiate that as a leader where, hey, I want to... We've talked about it before. Back to Jim Dethmer. He talks about a feedback-rich environment and creating that as a company. Right. Sure. But ultimately, there's people that are going to give feedback and we're not going to go that direction. Right? What's an honoring way? Help us with some language as a leader. If a leader that's listening to this is like, You know what? I want to start to include people more and hear more voices and pull people into the conversation so we get a more diverse set of perspectives and input. But then how do they have those awkward conversations when somebody provides feedback and it's like, yeah, we're not going to go that direction.

30:52 Thank you. But give us some of that honoring language to navigate that. That's good. Yeah, I would say that I would always thank people like, thank you. This is really insightful. I know that we have a lot to consider. And we're going to review or what I want to do is I want to review what you've shared with me against our mission and to think about how do these things work together? What's necessary right now? What could maybe be implemented in the future? If none of it's wasted, all of it's a value. Everything you have to say is a value. We may not be able to implement all of that right now. And we might find some even better ways to come together and to think about this in the next season or whatever.

31:36 The other thing I would say, this is a little bit different, but more on the front end of it, in asking... And I learned this from a consultant when I worked at a dentist office. I've done all these, all sorts of things. I was working front office at a dentist office and we had this consultant come in and work with us. There was a lot of lack of communication between the dentist, the office staff, and all of these different things that were happening. And it was really frustrating workspace. And the consultant said this phrase that I will never forget and I always use, and I And it is, I need your help. Like just asking puts people on your team. Like when we are able to say, hey, I need your help.

32:18 And then you present your thought, even if before you didn't think you needed their help, but you want to win them over, like to have a conversation that tells them right there, their voice matters to you. Oh, that's so good. That reminds me. I've volunteered, as many people have, on different boards of directors and stuff. And early on, one of my first board seats, I saw one of my colleagues doing that. They would never bring their own idea to the table before they, one-on-one, they'd go to the other people on the board and... And they'd say, Hey, I have an idea. I'd love your input.

32:58 And they would essentially build consensus and they would take all that feedback to enrich the thing that they were going to bring up at the next board meeting before they presented it. And I thought, Man, that is so wise. So wise. And I've forgotten about that principle. But that's interesting. So to me, that's a very proactive way to... of creating diversity, creating a diversity of views and opinions on the team is like what you say, Hey, I have this thing that I'm working on. I could use your help. What do you think of this? Yeah. I mean, I very practically, this is not in a business professional space.

33:38 I have a six-year-old and a three-year-old and I just tell them, I need your help. And I don't say it. And I like, Hey, I need your help. Like there's a difference in the tone, right? Like, Hey, William, I need your help. Could you help me with this? Or like, what do you think? And sometimes I want their opinion. And so then I ask for it. And sometimes I just say like, I need your help. I'm doing this. Could you feed the dog? Oh yeah. Like, oh, not a problem because they feel empowered to help. It's so interesting how as leaders, we paint ourselves into a corner and then feel extremely frustrated by the experience that we're having.

34:19 The thought that basically brain science is already pointing towards this idea of humility and asking for assistance and showing people that you do not have all the answers and you're not the power lifter that can shoulder everything at once. is actually the same practice and principles that actually gets people engaged and wanting to participate. Yet, we have this, and you've said it multiple times now, Tricia, these limited beliefs, limiting beliefs that, no, if we don't have all the answers, they won't want to follow us. How in the world... How in the world can we stand in this place like that where we clearly see evidence that says otherwise, but mentally we just cannot break free from this imposter syndrome that makes us protect our egos and come up with this persona that we've got it all dialed in?

35:14 Yeah. I mean, do you want me to answer that? Yeah. I mean, honestly, what I think of with all of this is I think, well, when we are stressed, we go to our most immature place. Oh, that's like when we're stressed out and anxious, like when things are going crazy for us. We go to our baseline, typically. And if your baseline is what you learned from your parents or from whatever your survival mode is, then you just gotta like, you know, I think I'm like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Do it all yourself. Look out for number one. Gird your loins. Like all these silly things that are like, you gotta do it. That's funny. I had that term coming to my head.

35:55 Gird your loins. I was thinking of it at church the other day and they like showed like a six step process of how you actually girded your loins. I was cracking up. Yeah. You're like, oh, wait, that's a thing. Yeah. Yeah. I just leaned over to my husband. I was like, so there you go. Now I'm going to tell you, go ahead and gird your loins. And you're going to know how to do it. Okay. So you're starting to go somewhere here. So I'm going to shift that a little bit. This idea of when we get stressed out, when we get maxed out, we start basically reverting to this immaturity. Okay. You had also mentioned, and we were looking at some blog posts and things that you've been writing on around this idea of employee burnout or just as individuals, regardless of what role you're in.

36:36 We're just tired. We're running the rat race and we're just grinding gears. Yeah. And we've watched this. In fact, we've watched it very closely recently. Working with business owners that at one point, they were fired up. When they started their business, they had a mission for themselves. They were excited about talking about culture and employee engagement and these core values and all these things. And what you just see over time is that foundation just getting more crumbly and filled with more cracks because we face real life, real challenges in our businesses. We get frustrated by employee relationships.

37:17 We get frustrated by all the things. And so what we're watching almost then is, if I'm understanding you correctly, is we're watching people reverting to these more immature states. And so then it almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in the way that their companies feel. Right? They're getting burnt out. They're reverting back to this immaturity. They then act that out. It affects the blah, blah, blah. I look at this and say, okay, I think there's almost two sides to this or two ways that we're responsible. We're responsible to do something about this as an employee. But then I think we're also responsible as an employer or the leader, if you will, to have some kind of ownership in this.

38:01 So I don't care which side you pick first. But do you mind... just kind of unpacking for us, like what are the roles? How are they different between the employer, employee in this burnout that we're all facing and how it's impacting us? Yeah. I actually don't think they are dissimilar Oh. So let me say that instead of a double negative. I think that they're fairly the same because everyone is tired. Like we have a collective tiredness just in the world. I mean, there's still a lot of energy out there too, but in places where there's burnout, and I've seen this up close, I've seen this with my clients, that there are systems that are not working for them.

38:44 And there are ways that they are being challenged or things that are frustrating. And then there's a lack of communication. And one thing I was just thinking, I watched Brene or not watched. I listened to Brene Brown podcast with these two sisters. I don't know if you've ever listened to her stuff. She's amazing. She is amazing. She's great. And their podcasts are especially great, I think. And they were talking about cycles of burnout and people not completing the emotional cycle. Mm-hmm. So when you get really frustrated and all things are hitting the fan, then what do you do with that? How do you close the loop on that to get it processed, to get it out of your body? And when we don't do that and we don't do that again and again and again, we bottle it, we stuff it, whatever, whether we're the manager, the leader, the owner...

39:31 Or where the employee, like we're not able to let the stress, the stuff that's going on inside of us finish. They have a whole book on this. They named all of these ways that you can do, that you can process through burnout. So I think about some of that. I mean, I didn't write on that in my blogs. I was talking about how so many people are unhappy and I was thinking through what makes people unhappy. And I'm of course thinking from the employee side of things, like people being frustrated because they are not being compensated fairly for the work, the experience, the education that they have, people not being a good fit because their values are divergent from the company that they work for.

40:17 So there's a lot that's all in that. But I think that the burnout cycle, it doesn't matter what position you're in. It's the same. It's just, you might have different things that are on the input side of that. Like it's your boss versus your workload versus whatever. Yeah. What, I guess, responsibility do I have? I'm an employee. I've been at an organization for whatever X years. I've slid into this burnout. And I think there's probably a strong chance, especially if it's me, I don't recognize that it's a me problem. Sure. But boy, am I dialed in on what's wrong with the company and the environment and my teammates and my boss and my employees and all the things. What responsibility do I have to do some kind of self-check?

41:01 And what does that look like? What do we do? Yeah. Well, no one else is ever responsible for me. So all people are responsible for their own self and that's the only person they get to actually control. And so when we own that, instead of saying, oh no, and we look out to everyone else, it's, I mean, it's like that biblical metaphor of like the log in your own eye or, you know, take the log out of your own eye before you look at the speck in your neighbor's eye, that whole thing. It's like, It's very easy for me to look and see that all this other stuff is a mess. Like, of course, everything you're doing is asinine and everything I'm doing is glorious.

41:41 Like, that's never 100% true. And if it is, we have quite an inflated view of ourselves. And probably we should go somewhere else to start our own business. We really think that. If we really think that's what it is. But then again, why are you not moving on? Like if you're really that frustrated and everything's wrong with the organization that you work for, like, and you're just going to complain about it all the time, then that's on you. I mean, so I guess I would say every responsibility, like it's always shared. Like whenever you work for a place, you decide that you're going to take a position of ownership They're paying me to do this work.

42:21 I'm employed by them. So I am an employee. I take a portion of ownership and I am part of the face of this team to do this work. And if I don't agree with that work, and I think there's all these problems, then I need to do some self-examination as to whether or not I can still, in good faith, do this work. Or if I need to go find employment elsewhere. And that is the part that I think there's a real tension around because people take the path of least resistance and we don't want To leave the security we have because we really like security and comfort and taking risks is hard. And finding something else, it's just easy to stagnate and complain about where we're at versus do something about it.

43:07 All right, let's take a minute to recognize and thank our MitResto Mastery sponsor, Accelerate Restoration Software. And I'm fully aware, by the way, that when I say those last two words, restoration software, that that instantly creates heartburn for some of you out there, right? Because we probably all fall into one of two camps when it comes to software. We've either cobbled together kind of a version of free website tools and spreadsheets just to make our business work Or we're in the camp where we've adopted one of these existing restoration platforms, you know, one that has all the bells and whistles and supposedly does it all. But we can't get our team to consistently adopt it and input information to it.

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45:27 For this reason, we recommend actual insights to all of our clients. Yeah, three of the kind of big things that stuck out to me when being introduced to AI and their team. First off is this consistently updated training. I mean, at the end of the day, these guys are the experts. They're out front all the time. They're constantly learning new trade secrets and ensuring that your team's got access to those things. A 3,700 plus page database of Xactimate templates. I don't know what else to say here other than don't reinvent the wheel. It's already available. Download it, copy it, use it, bam. database of commonly missed items. I think this is huge. So many of us can change the numbers by just moving the needle a couple points.

46:10 And those commonly missed items can make all the difference in the world. So go check them out at value.getinsights.org backslash FCG. Given what you said about that Bernie Brown conversation of how important it is, for us to move through our feelings and not suppress them, which I think all of us do a lot in work because we don't necessarily know a healthy way to let out our anger or to move through our anger or frustration or whatever these negative, stressful feelings are that we're having. Yeah. We don't have a very good language, I guess, for... Yeah. Yeah. holding that in a business setting. As an owner or a business leader, can you give some advice?

46:55 If we see an employee, we're noticing. It just has those signs of burnout. Maybe there's a shift in attitude, just overall morale. There's a melancholy. They aren't as engaged or connected in the work or in meetings or whatever. When we notice the signs of burnout... What's the most productive or healthy way for us as a leader to engage with that employee to help them work through that or to give them permission to process through the stuff they're feeling? How does that look or sound? Yeah. I mean, you can start with the, I need your help phrase again. Hey, I mean, first of all, don't have the conversation in front of other employees. Yeah. Yeah. Have a conversation with them to where it's not embarrassing or shameful.

47:37 Right. Like just that and not making it a big deal. Like I think of my, my kids, preschool teacher, they say, I just put my emotions in my pocket. And I was like, Oh, that's a good word. So essentially being able to have a, a calm non-anxious presence with the person and to say, Hey, I need your help. I'm noticing that. that some things seem unhappy or you seem like this is really frustrating. And name specifically a couple things. Like you seem frustrated by this. Name the emotions. Actually do name the emotions that you see happening. Like when this happens, when you're on the job site, it seems like things are not going well and you're getting pissed off.

48:19 Is that true? I mean, help me out. Let me understand it. Is this what's going on? I am here to support you as my employee. And so being able to just name a few of those, what it does, if you can get them to tell their story of where they're actually at, it connects you with them. Brain science shows that people bond most when in anger, stress, pain, and somebody else comes alongside them and does not, and just essentially empathizes. If you can come and be present without taking it on, but also without like pushing back, just being present with them and naming it. People tend to call me. I do this all the time with my six year old who just turned six.

49:02 So like three, four or five years old. I mean, they have erratic tempers like they're nuts. Yeah. And so if every time I would notice every time he would freak out, most of the time it has to do with the fact that he's been playing so hard and he needs food because his blood sugar is low. And if I can say, Hey, you seem really upset by what happened. This is really frustrating. And I literally named three emotions in talking with him. They can go, well, yeah, this happened. And then he can like start to tell me. So, I mean, I'm giving you a lot more than you asked for there, but. No, I think that's huge. And I think what's interesting for folks that are listening right now is how applicable that is.

49:45 I think that's part of the challenge that we have is that we've got people that are facing the same challenges in life that we are as employers and leaders. And we're faking it until we make it with most of it in terms of how we medicate and take care of the problem. We have these employees that are having real lives too, and they're facing the same kinds of things. And I think it's interesting what you're saying there is, we have the responsibility to engage if we want to have a healthy influence over the environments that we're creating. But we don't have the obligation to fix it necessarily, is what I'm hearing you say. Mm-hmm. And I think as leaders, especially young leaders, like people that have been recently moved up into key positions, we're kind of like all of it's new.

50:32 We're kind of freaked out about all these new responsibilities and how we treat people and lead people. And so the idea that I'm going to stop and listen to you, you're going to actually tell me what's wrong, then I immediately place this responsibility of how am I going to fix it? Do I have the tools and resources to fix this person's problem if I ask them? And what you're saying is, is that a lot of the magic isn't just the stopping, recognizing, and giving them a little bit of space to communicate what they're experiencing. Yeah. And then to be able to say, I'm so sorry. And to mean it or to help them believe that you mean it. Like, oh, wow, that sucks. I mean, you don't have to say I'm sorry, like necessarily exactly that phrase, but like, I'm so sorry this is happening or that really sucks or hey, let's figure out a better way forward.

51:23 Let's see what we can do here. Just telling people that you're actually on their team makes a huge difference. They feel like, oh, I was heard in that conversation. And like, they actually cared. If that's something that's new, you have to try it out a little bit and save space. Yeah. with somebody, even though you can do that with like, and don't tell him you're doing it. Like, I totally did that to my husband. Like, I was like, I'm okay. Yeah. He's really pissed off right now. I'm going to just like, try this. And then he was like, yeah, I do. I'm really mad about, and he like started telling me. And then he like said a lot of things. I was like, It worked. But then I had to be like, okay, don't like, don't come in and like, okay, how am I going to get you to manipulate you into doing what I want now?

52:05 Because now I've got you like, you have to be careful with that. Because again, I'm not responsible for where they're at. But just having some empathy and like, okay, well, how do we work this out together? It's funny because I feel like this is probably something that most of us, if we ever went into any kind of marriage counseling, may have had the opportunity to be told once or twice. Just because your partner or spouse tells you something, they're not telling you so that you fix it. They actually just want you to hear them. Right. It's just funny how we compartmentalize these pieces of our lives, even though the social responsibility that we have or a lot of the tools, emotional tools that we can use to have healthy relationships, they apply across the board. It doesn't matter if it's an employee-employer engagement or a spouse or kids or whatever.

52:52 I've got a slightly different direction I want to take us in. One of the things that's happening in our industry is there's a huge transfer of ownership and leadership within our industry. Private equity money, everybody listening is going to be very familiar with this, but just lots of private equity money is coming into our industry. There's a lot of acquisitions and mergers and buyouts and roll-ups and all these things. And it's putting a lot of owners in a position where they're having to figure out, do I sell my company? Do I transition it to my children? How are we going to do that? And in the midst of all of that, I think there's a real transition of identity that a lot of owners are struggling with.

53:34 There's not a lot of public conversation about this, but in our one-on-ones, Brandon and I, as we've worked with clients and just colleagues and talking to people in the industry, there's this real question mark of... Yeah, I have this identity that was built around achievement and building this thing, this company that's successful. I have a lot, in many cases, the success and the financial stuff. And there's this thinking of, if I'm not doing this anymore, if I retire and let my kid take over, I sell it, yeah, I'm going to get all the money. But who am I? What do I have to offer anymore? Either to the business or just like, what am I going to do with myself? And I think there's some struggle happening in our industry in that transition point.

54:16 And of course, also too, the burnout issue we talked about on the owner side. It's just, I think there's a lot of people that are approaching this stage in their life where they're like, okay, what do I do with myself? And where is my value? And what am I going to do next? And I know you work with a lot of executives in transition and stuff like that. So what can you say to those owners that are figuring out what's the next thing in front of me? How do I think about that? How do I process through that? Having this just such an entrenched identity of achievement and all that for so long into whatever comes after this.

54:56 Yeah. Oh, that's a good question. I think that's a vocational question. And I don't mean that in the sense of a job. I mean that in the sense of like a calling of who you are. And like that comes out throughout our lives, but especially when we're transitioning into new space or a different role or away from the role we've had for a long time. And the first question that comes to my mind that I think about is, what brings you the most joy? What makes you just really delighted? What do you love? And it could be like, I love riding Harleys. Like, okay, fine. But it could be like any number of things. Why do you love that? And I start to ask questions that look backwards in people's life.

55:40 Like, what is the thread throughout your life that has really brought you like meaning? And how do you hold that for your future in a new way? So that's a big question that I would ask people. I would just be very intentional about it. You got to walk people through that because people are looking for, what am I going to do that makes my life a value even when I'm not producing numbers, right? Producing numbers, growth, productivity, dollars. How is my life still matter to the world? And so you have to find the place, and I quoted this earlier, the place where your deep joy or your deep gladness meets the world's deep need.

56:24 But you start with where do you find your joy? Where do you find? A lot of times when I walk people through vocation, I ask them, what was your favorite movie or book as a kid? What was the thing that you just really loved? Why? And then you start to see their values come through that. Like they're really their childhood types of things. And people will be like, well, I'm doing a podcast and I'm coaching somebody in the podcast. And I asked her this, this will be public. And she's like, well, Charlotte's web. I'm like, so why? What? Tell me what themes come out through this. Yeah. And so then you start to hear things from people's life and they'll talk, they'll tell you because they know those stories because people don't think of their life in a series of facts.

57:09 When somebody tells you about their life, they're not going to tell you just about how productive their business was. Like if you're really just chatting with them, they can tell you in a series of stories. Yeah. And that's how we hold our memory and how we hold our life. And so when we think about that for the future and we think about what do we want to do, we have to find what brings us really meaning and purpose in the world. But sometimes we've been so disconnected from that. It's really hard. We get really stuck. And so you got to You have to disorient it or dislodge it a little bit. And then when I do that, I also go into like pain stories and what people, if like, if you could heal the world in any way, what would you do? What makes you like, what kinds of injustice? So I take them through this whole like process. And I do that, whether they are just leaving college or they're in a midlife crisis process of change, or they're transitioning towards like I'm retiring.

57:57 And then, and then being able to do it out of their best self. knowing what to do versus out of scarcity, limitation, fear, abandonment, all the things that, I mean, we talked about this, like, because when you let go of your business, I'm going to, I guess maybe I'm changing the subject here. Well, who knows? When you're transitioning away from the thing you've done for a long time, it's loss. It is. And to not recognize that is to miss an opportunity for, to go through again a cycle it's a grief cycle a letting go cycle of like oh my kids aren't going to do it right they're not going to do it the way i did it i'm the one that made this company like there could be a lot of pride and loss and processing and like letting go and that's that's really challenging to do but then to be able you have to metabolize it like you have to process through it to let it go Otherwise, you're going to be an old fool.

58:54 You will. You'll just be cynical and everybody's out to get you and all the things of like, when I did this. And that's no way to live. Why would you want to live like that? Nobody really does. You're only hurting you. Will you hang on that old fool syndrome? We had chatted about it, I think a couple calls ago or something and you're touching on it now. So I'm 45. And I think for all intents and purposes, I'm straight up right in the middle of midlife time window. And I've had a bit of one. I say I've had a midlife experience, not a crisis, because I don't think I've hit crisis mode yet. But I'm seeing a lot of business leaders in our world that are in this range.

59:35 They're somewhere in those maybe early 40s to maybe 60 years old. And we're seeing this, for lack of a better term, I'm seeing a lot of old fools. And I sit in that seat more times than I like to admit myself. Yeah. So if we're not transitioning out of our business, but we've started to slide into this place where our business isn't very sexy because we're all old fool zone... Yeah. That's a problem in and of itself. And it's like there's some work that's required for maybe for me to get excited again about the thing in front of me. Is there a difference between those two phases? Or do you see that being it's still a similar exercise of what you were explaining with these heavy transitions out of something or into something different?

1:00:24 Yeah. Describe that old fool syndrome thing again. And then what's the pathway out? Yeah, the old fool is like the kind of the phrase, if it is to be, it is up to me. Like everything depends on me. And then if and then when anyone else, if I'm going to hand anything over to anyone else and they don't do it right, like there's just a lot of pride in the old fool. And a lot of it's all about me and my ego and all the stuff and anybody else who's doing it, it's they're kind of out to get me or, you know, like there's a lot of blame shifting towards anyone else, a lot of arrogance towards myself. So that tends to be, I think, with regard to the old fool, like, and then it's just, you become bitter.

1:01:08 You just become mad, bitter and just, ah, the world's going to hell in a hand basket. Oh, everybody's against me. Oh, like, I mean, I'm sounding like I'm kind of making noises like that, but it's kind of this sense of like, it's all them. Everyone's against me. All of them are all wrong and I'm all right. That's foolish. Yeah. That's not true. Who made your food for you today? Certainly you didn't grow at all. Like most of the time, like Thomas Burton, like no man is an island. No one operates isolated. No one does. Mm-hmm. It's not even really possible. And no one actually wants to or benefits from that. That's because of mental illness. So there's this sense of we need one another and to think that we don't is foolish.

1:01:53 Yeah. But we get there, right? And it's not a conscious decision. We just get frustrated and burnt out. Yeah. Walk us out of it. And I think it's okay here to be really tactical in the sense of, you got to start by taking a Saturday morning and pulling your head out of your ass or whatever you want to say. I don't know. Sure. But how do we do it? Yeah. Okay. So I have two things that I'm thinking about. One is I'm thinking morning routines. You better give yourself some space for you every single day. I realized this as a parent that I was like, I was getting kind of old fool-esque like, oh, I don't have any time for me. I'm working. I'm taking care of kids. Everybody needs me.

1:02:34 I got to be super mom and all the things. I'm like, I am just a human. I need to take care of my own self because if I don't take care of me, No one else is going to. Not that my family doesn't care about me or love me. They do. And my husband is very generous and kind and does all sorts of wonderful things to support me. But if I don't choose to get out of the bed and go exercise and take a walk or do whatever it is, meditate, then I don't have that space for me to re-energize and to value my own self. It's like we're all backwards. We got to blame everybody else. But if we don't take care of our own self... then we don't have the possibility or the opportunity to then give to the world in our best way.

1:03:17 So that's the first thing I think about. And I can give more on that. There's more thoughts I have about that. But the other thing that I keep thinking about as you've been sharing and talking is the book. It's a business book. Who Moved My Cheese? And they have it in audio. Like it's old, but it's about, what is it? Four mice. I mean, there are two mice and two other, I don't know what it is, but in my mind, it's better to say it's four mice, but there's like him, Haas, Sniff and Scurry and him and Haas, they don't like the cheese moves in the mouse race thing. And one of them is just complaining the whole time. And the other one is freaking out and they're getting hungrier and hungrier and hungrier. While Snip and Scurry, they're looking, they're moving.

1:03:58 They're like the two pairs and the ones are having trouble because they're not willing to adapt and move. And it's all in their mind. It's all their head. It's all their attitude. But every day they get up and they do the same thing. It's just entrenching them more and more and more as opposed to the other two who every morning, whether they have cheese or not, they get up, they put on their shoes, they tie their laces and they run. Then they eat their cheese and then they do the other thing. And then when the cheese moved, they're ready. So, okay. I'm going to interpret this a little bit with you. Go ahead. I think I'm just going to use my own experience here. So I've been a GM in a GM role for quite a while, more than a decade.

1:04:43 And there's this battle rhythm that I slid into as a leader. And I would say that 90% of the time, some of my default responses to things, my default decision-making methodology, even my day-to-day activities... I found value in production. So as soon as I started pulling triggers and pushing buttons, it told me myself that I'm being productive. That's a good thing. Yeah, sure. Even though time and time again, I need to slow down in the morning. I need to actually do all these things. Wow. So there were these moments though where a relationship, a person, an experience would stop me in my tracks and give me a moment to pause and think.

1:05:24 And I would almost even out loud sometimes say things like, You know what? I really need to start X. Or I really should move away from Y. And there were times that I actually followed through and it had profound change. And there was a lot of times where I just kept kicking that can down the road. When we see that or when we're experiencing that, is there anything that we can do tactically to get better at making a move or a decision or taking action on this experience that we have that shines lights on this old fool space that we're beginning to slide into?

1:06:05 Yes. Like off the bat, the first things I think about are visualization, coaching, and attaching habits to things you already do. What do you mean by that? That's like Atomic Habits, the book Atomic Habits. Like Atomic, Adam, like you have Atomic is big, but then Adams are small. And so like if you do something, like if you know every day you are going to do something, like every morning I make coffee. Right. So if I put my phone or my running shoes or, you know, whatever it is, like every morning buy the thing that I already do, then there's a better chance, like doing something small that connects with something I already do, the better chance I will do that other thing.

1:06:50 And so like I moved my phone away from my bed. So I don't now look at my phone before I go to bed at night because I was staying up way later than I wanted to, which then meant I was not getting out of my bed in the morning to do the things that I said I valued, but never did. I didn't really die because I was having a hard time actually achieving them. So I just moved my phone across the room and that's where it's plugged in at night. So I plug it in, got to let it go. I get in my bed and go to sleep. Then in the morning when my alarm goes off, I have a choice to like go back to bed. Sometimes I do. I put my watch on a lot of times. I put my watch on in a 10 minute timer on my watch. And then I'm like, okay, I get 10 more minutes and then I'll get up.

1:07:31 Like that's very tactile to do that. But I would say the thing that changed for me, and this happened this last year for me personally, is that I did a visualization exercise and I did it through coaching because I, as a coach, also had coach somebody who has helped me push through a lot of the barriers and limitations that I have had. And I was like thinking about that with this visualization on like, what do you want? Like, what is it that you really want in your life? And like, I don't know if it was like, think about six months out, but I was thinking about six months to a year out from the date on which I was sitting. It was like in July and or June. And I had this whole visualization that I was walking through of like, what is it that I want?

1:08:13 Like, And I thought of myself because my family goes up to Detroit Lake and we go boating a lot. My parents had a cabin up there. And I thought, I want to be very personal, but whatever. I want to be on a boat with my friends at the lake, laughing, eating food and feeling not self-conscious about my body in that space in a swimsuit. Wow. And just playing and inviting. One of my favorite things that brings me lots of joy is driving a jet ski really fast with loud music. And so, like, I just feel like God is in that space. And so, in nature.

1:08:54 And so, like, I imagined that. And I thought, oh, how do I feel? What do I want to feel? And what am I going to do to get there? And so then I literally started exercising because I said, okay, what am I going to do? I'm going to set my intentions. And my intentions from that moment that I wrote down in this coaching space with other people. So that's like a big instigator for me. It was intentional. I was paying for it was that I was going to give myself an hour a day for self-care. which felt like a luxury with little kids and work and all the things. I was going to give myself an hour a day with self-care and I was going to play every day. And I was going to write every day something, even if it was just short. I was going to write something.

1:09:35 I create content every day. And I've done exceptionally well with the hour of self-care. The other ones have been harder because it's hard for me to stop working and to play. And I mostly think about playing with my kids and just being present to them. But basically I started exercising and I like I've exercised more in the last one year than I've exercised in a year ever in my life, which would be all days. But like when I had COVID. That's awesome. What really strikes me in that story or that experience is... we all have an opportunity. Same business, same employees, same everything. We do have the ability to create something fresh in that, to renew inside that environment.

1:10:18 And by doing so, who knows who else we're having this healthy impact on. And you didn't say this specifically, but one of the things is that I've even noticed, kind of third-hand stalking you on social and things is... when you give yourself that space, you become more powerful and more influential and more bold and more confident in the things that you're saying and the way that you're saying them in such a way that people get more out of that exposure and that experience. So it's so interesting how... we look at something that feels so self-centered and forget that it actually is part of what fuels us to actually provide the best we can.

1:11:00 And I think a lot of this topic for me is hanging so heavy because I've just been thinking so much about a lot of our clients right now. And those ones that just... When you're with them, you know they are tired. They've been shouldering a lot to build what they've built. Yeah. And it's like, what can I say? What can we do? What could we promote with them and around them to get them reanimated? Yeah. So that they can make some kind of one or two item commitment. So not only do they get a better experience, but their people do. I just think about that. These organizations with 10, 20, 30, 200 employees.

1:11:40 Yeah. Man, when leaders are healthy, what an impact. I mean, I think about the different jobs I've done and I've done a lot of different jobs in multiple States and lots of different industries. I think my best experiences and the best experiences of my friends, my family, my coworkers, the people I'm coaching has been when someone has believed in them. always, always my best bosses are the people who just, I just knew they said it. And I knew it through their actions that they believed in me and they would, and they would tell me.

1:12:24 And I think if you can come alongside people and show them and really tell them like, I believe you, like, this is good. What you're doing is good. Like, this is really powerful. Like, how many people have people affirming them in their work and just telling them like, gosh, what you guys are doing is awesome. And like, explain it, like give examples, make it concrete so that you're not just like blowing them up. If they wanna know like, okay, well, what is good? Like, I'm gonna be a little cynical. Yeah. You know, like, what do you want? What's the catch? Yeah. This is really good. I see how you guys have like been able to flex your labor labor, even when like things are tight and you're understaffed, but you've still been able to do this.

1:13:08 This is amazing. Like, I don't know. I just think people need that. They need to be encouraged. Yeah, I feel like it's impossible to do that when you're just so blown up inside. When you just are so unhealthy, so tired, so frustrated, so old fool-ish, I don't know how you have the insight or the energy to recognize what's happening around you. I just think that you're in a compromised state and it makes it very difficult to feed into others. Yeah. And ironically, I think the pressure that comes out of that old fool place is... our response to others that are struggling is, get your shit together. Yeah. Just sadly, right? That's the energy we bring out is, totally.

1:13:48 Figure your shit out. Like the bootstraps thing you're talking about, that tends to be what flows out of that frustrated, cynical, tired, hey, I did my part. I got us to this place. And look, just get your shit together. Everybody else should be giving their best. Why are you not giving your best? I gave mine. I built this. You know what I mean? There's just this negativity that flows out of that unhappy place. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm an optimist and idealist. So there's that. I'll just own that. Even though I can get cynical on some stuff. But I like to try to believe that everyone is doing the best they can with what they have. Yeah. Like just to hold that like, you know what, if everything sucks for them right now, everything is really hard.

1:14:32 They're doing the best they've got with what they have. Things are hard. We don't know. I think that's the other thing. It's like we are another thing. We just really don't ever fully know what's going on inside another human. I don't know the whole of their story. And for me to assume that I do and to try to tell them to get it together, like that's presumptuous of me. And that doesn't look good. It doesn't play well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's solid. Okay. Guys, I want to be conscious of your time, Tricia. That was a lot of fun. I think we got into some really interesting topics. I think just as an opportunity to wrap this up, I think a lot of people, a lot of leaders need to take seriously this idea of partnering with someone or reaching out to someone for help.

1:15:23 Because I think there's an opportunity for them to experience similar to what you did. Having someone ask the right questions to poke the bear, if you will, to give us an opportunity to hit reset in some areas and really give us an opportunity to change our business's state that it's in right now and really change the level of positive influence that we have on people. You are one of those persons that someone could reach out to and do some good internal work with to make them a better leader. Where am I sending folks if they were to want to connect to you and potentially do some deep diving into vocational and just direction of where they're headed next? Sure. So I have a website, nwleadershipcenter.com, or you can find me on Instagram at the Leadership Center or just Trisha Wellstad, either one.

1:16:08 I tend to share stuff on both or Facebook, but nwleadershipcenter.com is easy and it has coaching courses, opportunities. People can set up a discovery conversation, just kind of see, is this a fit for them now? And what does that look like? How much is that for them? Yeah. Right on. I love it. Hey, well, thanks again, Trisha. We appreciate you and really had a good time hanging with you today. That was awesome. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart & Boots. And if you're enjoying the show, but you love this episode, please hit follow, formerly known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps.

1:16:48 Thanks for listening.