Ep 83 - "This Is Messy"

0:07 Welcome back to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brandon. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. Man, I love this industry. Christopher, how are you, sir? Good. People missed that little gem that I... Oh, our little exchange, our little preamble. Pre-show exchange. Dude, I'm having some mustache frustrations. It's like I'm getting a dreadlock effect where some of the pieces stick together and the others don't. Well, I don't... I don't think you're properly deploying your pocket comb. I think the pocket comb is the answer to that. No, you know what? I'd like to argue with you, but I think you're speaking truth. I have three of them. So just in case I leave one at home, it's like... Is it like the Switchblank style where you can just, wham, pull that thing out?

0:53 No, but I have looked at those. I wouldn't mind one of those. It'd probably take your game to a whole new level. No. No. Dude, I want to talk about something today that is like, I think it's valid. But the reality of it is, is our audience is, some of them have these little critters and some of them don't. Critters? Are we talking about hairy ones? Yeah. I want to talk about raising rabbits. No, I want to talk about kids. I want to talk about being a parent. Bro, this is a sensitive subject for me. I know. I know. And again, I know that some of our audience, that's not the place that they're at. But I think the interesting thing about this is, and of course, we're going to try to do our job, right? Representing our client base in this conversation is there is direct ties to us as employers and coaches, consultants, right?

1:36 Teachers, leaders, there is a connection for sure. I don't see really any difference, to be honest, between leadership in a business context and parenting, actually. There's so many parallels. Parallels is the minimum, right? There is certainly... We're bringing the same human into the equation in both settings, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because you and I are fairly transparent with our journeys as we record these shows. And you often will reference experiences that we do with our partners, our wives. You do with your kids and some of the lessons that you're learning in sometimes real hard ways. And I'm in a similar place with my kids where we're on to a different part of the journey than you've been experiencing.

2:19 And in and of itself, there's some new challenges. But there's also some really fun things that are happening. And I think where I've been these last few weeks is in this place of really trying to understand what this new version of my relationship with my adult kids are, mine's 21, 23. And what's interesting about it is that it feels like for the first time in a long time, I really can be in alignment with some of the perspectives and focuses that we've tried to deploy as employers, that we've tried to teach people in terms of growing their business and their relationship with their people. And it's like for the first time, and it's really paralleling for me. In a lot of ways, there's this new dynamic with my kids where it's closer to an employee-employer relationship from the perspective of the opportunity to create a coaching culture, to create this relationship where I'm guiding.

3:06 But if I do it too direct, if I'm just absolutely telling and mandating, of course, that's a massive turnoff for somebody that's 21, 23 years old and younger. Or 17, 15, 11, etc. Or born. So anyway, I've been wrestling with that. And then another piece and just full transparency, you and I, and we're not ready to talk about it a whole bunch yet, but you and I have really been going to work learning money, learning a different level of money management. And as I'm increasing my financial literacy, way beyond managing business, way beyond managing in the P&L, and we almost look at it and say, like the phase three, like after I've created cash, what am I doing with it? As I'm doing so much more learning on that and really getting mentored by some people that have clearly been in the trenches for a long time, I'm like, man, what an opportunity I've had that in the past... Oh, speak that into your kids.

3:57 Speak it into my kids, right? You and I have had a couple really interesting conversations as floodlight grows. It's like, how do we best steward that growth? Yeah. Because I think, you know what? We should hold on to this. Yeah. We have to thank our sponsors that are in people in this conversation, bro. That is true. That is true. Yeah. Let's do that. So yeah, special thanks. Go to our sponsors that help empower and put gas in the tank for Head, Heart & Boots. That's right. And we have a unique relationship with our podcast sponsors because really one, we really believe in them. This is... That's not to say that other podcasts have sponsors don't believe in the product. But I think we definitely put a double emphasis on that. That we feel like especially as a consulting company, which is kind of our day job, so to speak.

4:40 Yeah. Like our clients look to us for advice. And we want to make sure we're introducing them to quality products and services. It's not a transaction. It's not. It's a relationship that's mutually beneficial. Yeah. And I don't mean that tongue in cheek. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So one of the sponsors that underwrites this podcast is Liftify. And we were actually just talking with another potential sponsor today just how awesome of a partnership has been with Liftify because it really is a win-win for us. When you find a great service vendor or supplier and you refer it to somebody that you care about, somebody that you have a relationship with, and they have an awesome experience, well, part of the equation is you look awesome. for introducing them to that product or service.

5:22 And that's been consistently our experience with Liftify. Is that when we introduce one of our clients or an industry friend or even a prospect, it comes up in some of our sales conversations with potential clients even. Consistently, they come back 30 days later and like, Oh my gosh, this has been really great. It was super easy. It was simple for us to turn that on. So we look good. They benefit. Their business benefits and so forth. So it's just been one of those really easy... relationships. Man, so we're really grateful to Zach and his team. What is Liftify? I mean, if you've been listening to our show, you definitely heard us talk about them. But Google reviews, it's like this day and age, it doesn't matter if you're a restoration company, a window washer, a restaurant, really all businesses in terms of generating organic leads from Google, the SEO component, all that stuff, Google reviews, and the routine collection of Not just... Back in the day, I think back when I was a State Farm agent, there was a heavy emphasis on Yelp reviews, Google reviews, all that stuff.

6:26 It was like all of that was coming to bear 12, 15 years ago. And we were doing all kinds of clever things like giveaways, little incentives like, hey, if you leave us a Google review, we'll give you a $5 Starbucks card, that kind of stuff before we knew that... Really before Google started penalizing that kind of stuff in their algorithm. Yeah. But we all wanted it and we were doing all these clever things. And there continues to be some of those kind of black hat, clever approaches. But more and more, Google's catching on. And they're like, Look, just because somebody has this huge rush of 50 reviews that comes in does not mean they're real and does not mean they're reflecting actual customer experience. And so now, Zach was educating us on it.

7:07 And go back. You can hear the interview with Zach on a previous episode. I don't know what number that was. Maybe we'll put it in the show notes. But... He was like, no, no, no, no, no. That's why now the Google algorithm is prioritizing recency. Yeah. Like it's mission critical that we have a system in place where every single week, every single month, we're generating Google reviews from the jobs we're doing. Yeah. Yeah. And what that means is that for you to receive maximum benefit from your Google reviews, if you're a company that's doing 500 or 1,000 jobs a year, like many of you are that are listening to this, you should be generating hundreds of Google reviews throughout the year. Yeah. And so if you're one of these people that's listening, you're like, we do that kind of business and we have like 109 reviews from the last six years, you are probably not receiving a fraction of the benefit in terms of organic search results and leads from Google.

7:58 And think about how much money you're spending on PPC. What if you were generating more calls just because of your organic search results and Google reviews? Yeah. What is that worth? Yeah. And anyway, so Brandon and I have worked with other platforms when we were operating in the field. There's a number of other ones. Liftify is less expensive on a monthly basis than those. And their conversion, the number of reviews they're getting for every client job that you close, is significantly higher than the industry standard. 20% to 25%. Yeah. So if you do 1,000 jobs... What Liftify is saying is you're very likely going to collect 200 to 250 reviews a year. Yeah, exactly. So do the math. Whatever your number is, if you do 100 jobs a year, okay, you do 2,000 jobs a year, Liftify could represent a major lift to your business and generate more inbound calls.

8:47 It's certainly done it for us, even at a very small level with a consulting company. So just go do it. Liftify.com forward slash floodlight. We have had zero clients come back and say, hey, that was a crappy introduction. Yeah. We wish we'd never talked to Liftify. Literally. Yeah. So there you go. It's been a banger. CNR Magazine, Michelle over at CNR, just running and gunning, creating so much value and opportunity for us. Man, they just keep getting, pumping out more and more content between the podcast, between the special series that she's doing with leading experts in the industry and the podcast. She brings in the big names. Point is, is what they're doing is value added. And it's like, it's free to you. Literally, it's an opportunity to get the access to this, to basically be a partner with a friend of the industry and get a lot of great information to help you, help guide your team, help expose your team to things, concepts, ideas, and maybe tools and resources you don't know are on the horizon.

9:41 So CNR Magazine, guys, become a subscriber. It's real simple. It's a no-brainer. Make it happen. You and your team benefit from it. Yeah. And from an advertising standpoint, we have had a number and I think we're like many of you. What is the value of a single inbound lead? Think about that for you. Maybe you're a supplier in the industry. Maybe you're a staffing agency or something like that. And you're marketing to restoration companies. Since we started advertising with CNR, we can document how many... Because we ask people when they submit a form on our website or whatever, how'd you hear about us kind of deal. And multiple times we've had CNR magazine pop up there. And we know the value of that to us.

10:22 And listenership. And it's far outweighed the cost. of what we've spent in terms of advertising. Our listenership has grown on Head, Heart, and Boots, all the things. So whether you're an advertiser or you're an industry professional that's trying to stay up on the latest stuff, yeah, go to CNR, check it out. Parenting. I honestly am not 100% where to start this launch, this pad, but I think I got a van. You ready? I'll follow you. Okay. So big picture, okay? Maybe this is the framework to start this conversation. Big picture, I feel like I went through a series of phases with my kids in terms of my relationship. Now, and again, I want to be cognizant of the fact because parenting is a sentimental and highly emotionally charged conversation and relationship. So I want to be cognizant of the fact that many of us have a wildly varying degree of relationships with our kids based on so many variables.

11:09 And so please do not hear anything that we're going to talk about as an overgeneralization or a this is fact, this is what it's like. Well, and I think too, I've thought a lot about this because of course there's potential for our children to hear these podcasts and stuff like that. And I'm like, kind of my commitment is I'm sharing from my perspective anything that comes up, right? And so kids, if you're listening to this, this is a one-sided conversation. We understand that it might be. This is dad's perspective. And I've been around long enough to realize that often my perspective is flawed, especially in the moment. It's not necessarily fact. Yeah. So I'm going to just kind of describe some phases. And again, I think there's real easy ways for us to connect this conversation to our relationship with our employees.

11:51 If you're not a parent or if that's just not the space that you're currently focused on. So I think about this from this perspective. So when my kids were younger, there is some command and control that's required. Not some. There's a lot. They don't have the experience. They don't have the life exposure. As much as they may have some mental knowledge that they've learned via social channels, that they've learned via education, exposure to their friendship circles, they certainly are developing a worldview. But the reality of it is, right, wrong, or indifferent, the reality of it is they just haven't had a ton of exposure to the world and all the different variables that affect it. And so there's this reality that we're guiding our kids, right?

12:31 We're putting up those bowling lanes, those guards, to make sure they stay on some kind of path that's healthier versus not, right? Lots of command and control when they're younger. And then I feel like you go through the second phase where... the relationship between you and your kids, you're learning how to let go and they're learning how to push back. Oh yeah. Right? And you have been fairly open and honoring, but you've been fairly open about some of this transition that you've been in with your kids as they age into their teens, right? Yeah. Might be beyond that now. But I went through this phase, personally, I went through a phase with my kids where it's like we're just doing this dance of, I'm trying to balance whether or not in that moment this is a lesson I have to provide.

13:12 Or if it's a lesson, I should just leave to time. And this is hard. It's a difficult thing. And then I think what a lot of kids, and again, the parallels, our employees don't always understand that we're humans too. And we're trying to make a similar decision pattern as employees or as employers where we're like, is this a moment that I have to be the one that drives home this lesson? Or can I give my people some grace to learn this lesson on their own, right? Via failing, right? Via whatever. Can time be the teacher on this particular topic, right? Dude. I have a lot of emerging thoughts in this area. Because, you know, so my kids, 17, 15, 11, almost 12.

13:54 They're all about three years apart. Yeah, my 17 is all going to be 18 in June next month. Oh, gosh. That's wild. That's wild, man. Yeah. So here's the thing I've noticed. And so your kids are about five years ahead of mine. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So just roughly. And boy, does it feel like some things have changed even in the last five years. And I think this is a current struggle. I grew up, I was thinking about my upbringing. I was talking with a friend just about some of the pushback that I've gotten from my older child when it comes to boundaries and expectations and rules and all that kind of stuff. And I was thinking about this because I said, I would have never pushed back in that way with my parents.

14:36 And my parents were not super overbearing or super strict in how we, I think most of us would think about it. I'm 43, by the way, so it gives a little context. So I grew up in the 80s as a kid. The internet wasn't a thing. Yeah. And certainly, I know the internet and all of the follow-on technology and social media and stuff, there are certainly a lot of negative things that we now are trying to deal with and manage. But I think one thing the internet and social media has done is it's introduced a whole variety of perspectives. Mm-hmm. and sort of optics on how other people live and how the world works. It's opened our kids up. There's just a much more global view that I think our kids just inherently grow up around of seeing other ways of doing life, how their friends are living in different situations.

15:22 They're seeing the consequences of different types of lifestyle. They just have a much more... global view of things. It's not all great. Let's be honest, right? I mean, some of the obvious things that I think we see our kids being exposed to is things like pornography. And there's some stuff like early exposure to things. I think most of us would agree, not healthy. So it's both and, it's all the things. But I think it's causing our kids to mature in some ways faster than we'd like. But then also there's some positive sides to that. There's a much broader perspective, I think our kids are growing up with, that we didn't have. Yeah. And I think so there were some guardrails, I think, that our parents had to put it. They had to speak some of that perspective, sort of give us the proper perspectives growing up.

16:06 I think things are legitimately changing because what I'm seeing is I don't know that my kids need as much from me in terms of the rules and protection that my parents needed to provide me when I was growing up. I think that my ego feels like I want them to want advice from me. I'm expecting that they're looking to me for advice and direction and guidance and guardrails and stuff like that. And what I'm seeing in all my kids is that there's much more independence. It's like, I'm not the only one they can go to for answers now. It's like, there's answers everywhere. And I'm right in the middle of processing all this, but that sort of command and control perspective that I think most of us grew up with of, hey, curfews, you got to be home, but you're not going to do this.

16:54 You are going to do that. A lot of that, I think, might be less necessary than it used to be when I was a kid growing up in the 80s. It's so interesting that you go there because I think, and this is funny because you and I are still experimenting a bit with our shows in terms of what we're willing to try to do live and not. Yeah. Yeah. And this might be one of those scenarios where you and I are so different in our perspective that it could create some very interesting dialogue. So here's my knee-jerk response. I'm not saying yours is right or wrong. But my knee-jerk response is, my kids, yes, you're right. The current generations have got exposure. But I think what they don't realize is that just because they see it doesn't mean it's in their best interest.

17:38 Okay, so where I was going with this though, thank you, that was actually a good cue, because yes, I agree with you. I think what's happening now is that I grew up in it, and again, this is collective, I'm not talking about my parents per se. Sure, yeah. But I think just collectively, there was like a default behavior of telling your kids what to do, how to behave. And in a lot of cases... there was an incongruence between how they saw mom and dad living in some of the choices and some of the behaviors that mom and dad had behind the scenes and what mom and dad were demanding of the kids because it felt like the right thing to do. I got to protect them. I got to make sure they don't do this, make sure they don't do that. You know, the classic example is just that again, that command and control environment.

18:20 Right. And I think now with our kids having access to any information, any answers they want, Now there's a much heavier burden on parents to actually model. That's very solid. What they want their kids to be because kids are going to see any kind of incongruency. Yeah. I mean, like, screw you. Why would I listen to you? You know what I mean? Like, there's a much heavier burden. Yeah. on us now to model healthy living, responsible choices, because they can clearly, they can spot incongruency immediately because they have other options they're seeing. They have other models they can choose. And those models are often showing fake results. Yes. Right? So a lot of these models that you're talking about, and of course, I'm not talking about walkway models, models of parenting, models of living...

19:08 they're seeing the social value of it. They're seeing what somebody posted intentionally. And so they see someone acting X that may look different than the way you do. And they're like, but that's a winning one. Because I see what yours is bearing and I don't like what it's bearing. But when I watch this person or watch this model being lived out on social media, it looks like they're winning. Yeah. So when I say the guardrails and all that stuff isn't as necessary, I think it's our kids are learning through observation. Yeah. More than ever, because they have a more global view. They're looking at their friends. No matter how much restriction in protection you try to put in place, inevitably, your kids are going to be exposed to a world of information, perspectives, angles.

19:53 They're seeing how their friends, their friends' parents are behaving on campus. Facebook, there's just the optics our kids have into the world and how it works now is 100% different than when I was in the 80s. My world was what my parents allowed me to see, essentially, based on the community I was raised in, the school I went to, the types of church, the friends that my parents had over to our house, all that stuff. It was very... That was all I knew. They're seeing things and experiencing things and potentially even interacting with things around the world in some respects.

20:34 Sure. Within the religious context that we've raised them in and experiencing other people from other religious contexts in different worldviews and lifestyles and all that kind of stuff. And so I feel like I guess the shift that I'm talking about, and I'm totally mincing words because I'm kind of figuring this out as I say stuff, is I just feel the burden of it doesn't matter what you say anymore to your kids. Yeah. Like they're ultimately going to respond to the lived experience with you. And I think there's a fundamental... I think maybe that was always true in some ways. But the difference is, is that's all they were exposed to back then. And now it's like, they can kind of pick and choose. What do I think makes the most sense in this world?

21:15 And I think it's up to us to show them. Yeah. Like, so if I'm trying to help them understand what it is to take care of themselves... I think the only bona fide way for me to approach that is for me to live it, to model it. Because me saying something, there's a thousand other people saying things to them. Yeah. And that's not been that way. Yeah. Even as recently as 10 years ago. Yeah. And it's funny. I think the parallel here in this phase that we're talking about, this is the dance, right? This phase two is where you're beginning to learn... What do I do to continue to provide value to my kids or value to my employees? Again, they parallel each other so well. You're in this dance of what part do I hold with a loose grip?

21:58 What part do I not? What part is 100% based on how I act versus what I tell them? And I think there is one piece that remains true here that then eventually carries over into this third phase, which I want to eventually make our way into. And that is the why element. There's one thing that I think changes in the second phase that's very critical, regardless of all these different variables that will come over time, all these different things that will shift over the next multiple decades in terms of access to information and worldviews and employee-employer relationship protocols, all those things. is the importance of the why element. So when my kids were young, just like when you have an employee that's maybe very new in the roster, there's just this element of like, we have to teach them the expectation.

22:40 But then you move into a new dance in phase two where it's more about, hey, I need to mirror, just like you said, 100% accurate. You got to mirror what you're looking for, mirror what you expect. But then it's teaching them the why because they're about to begin... if they're not doing it already, making 90% of these decisions on their own accord. Even if they're presenting to you that they're doing what you want. The reality of it is the whole, because I said so, because it's important for your safety, for your health, like those generic non-why driven responses that's not important. don't fit the bill anymore. They don't fuel them in their own decision-making. And so one of the things that we did at times very well, and other times we did horrible, we tried to be aggressive about when I said, hey, I don't believe this is an option for you, or we're not going to allow this thing, or here's the why.

23:33 It's not because I said so. I want you to understand that I'm a couple corners out on the journey farther than you. And these are things that we've seen and experienced, right? This is the why. Now the reality of it is, and this is where we can't own our kids' circus or our employees' circus, you can't mandate how they receive that information. And there's going to be a lot of things that challenge that. We were talking about this the other day. It's so hard, right? You can't... With somebody we were talking, is this my circus? Is this my monkeys? And there's this reality with our kids. But that why part, like you're talking about, mirroring it with your behavior and then providing the why. And it's so funny. It's like you say that out loud. What's great leadership and mentorship as an employer, as a key leader?

24:13 Yeah. Why? And mirroring. Mirroring, meeting, and exceeding those expectations, right? Yeah. Okay, so I think we can circle back to these phases and experiences because there's so many things to refer to. But okay, phase three. I think I'm square into phase three. You are square in phase two, I think, right now with your family dynamic. I'm sure people that are listening can sort of hear how tentative and unconfident I feel as we're talking. I feel very unconfident. Yeah. In this subject area right now, I'm really, my cage has been rattled. Yeah. As I've been going through these teenage years because I feel like there's a real shakeup in my mentality. And I think a lot of that started several years ago, but it's like each phase I go through with parenting is my children are really establishing themselves, their own independence and stuff.

24:59 Yeah. I'm really wrestling with how I was raised and just my generation was raised. I'm wrestling with some of the religious context and just the role that that played in my upbringing and my worldview and all that kind of stuff. And one path, and I think some of us choose that, is to just stay in that pocket and just raise our kids the way our parents raised us because we turned out all right. This worked okay. And then some of us wrestle with it. And like, you know, that thing maybe wasn't as productive or I'm not so happy with the impact that had on my trajectory. I'd like to do something different with my kids. And it's very uncertain because it's one of those things. And I'm sure there's analogs in business to this too, where the choice you're making today, you may not find out if it was the right call for weeks, months, or years.

25:45 How long does it take to yield? And with kids, it's like... I may not know if I'm taking the right path with them until they're 25. And I start to see some fruit from these types of conversations or choices we've made. 100%. And so I'll admit, it's just a little shaky ground for me at the moment. Well, and I think same is true. You said that maybe there are parallels with the employer-employee. Well, absolutely there is right now. Because the reality of it is that the dynamic in that relationship has shifted greatly for a lot of the same reasons. So the same reasons that we have this changing dynamic in our household, those kids are becoming employees and those employees are bringing that same relational experience to our work. to our office, to our workforce.

26:26 And so there is this element of us having to shift into the second phase with our employees because their expectations are different. Their worldview is wider. They're being exposed to things even though they have it. Visually, they are socially being exposed to it, but they may not necessarily have the real life experience to marry up against it. And so we're having to modify the way that we lead and guide our people because the expectation is different. The game is changing, not only in our homes, but then where do those people go? They go into our businesses, our teams. They show up with that same baggage. And I think the reality of it is that hesitation or that uneasiness that you feel We all are.

27:08 I think we're feeling that in a dynamic, global way. And we're all trying to figure out what do we do about this. And recruiting companies are starting to teach some different changes. We're starting to see big swings in HR focus in terms of how we're equipping leaders to educate themselves and their... their employees. It is shaky. We don't have a firm grip. We have camps that feel like they've got the concept nailed. The reality of it is, I don't know if any of us have been practicing long enough in any category or model that we do know for certain. Now, we can have confidence though, just like with our kids, because it's not all shaky ground and there's no firm foundation anywhere. I think we can remind ourselves about some basic human elements.

27:51 And how we deploy this gets tough. Respect, right? Not making assumptions in terms of their ability to listen to what we have to say and what we're trying to communicate. Not dumbing down the message because you don't think they're smart enough to comprehend the complexities of your ingenious perspective. All right, Head, Heart & Boots listeners. Want to stop here just a moment and thank our underwriting sponsor, Bloodlight Consulting Group. As all of you know, right? You know, Brandon and I, this is our passion project, Head Heart and Boots is. But it's also a way more and more that our consulting clients find us. And in effect, they interview us, right? Those of you who've been listening to the show for a while, you get to know who we are, right?

28:33 What we're about. So if Head Heart and Boots is valuable to you, one of the best things you can do is share it with your friends. And it's been incredible to watch Just the audience grow and we still get text messages from many of you about shows that you really like and impacted you. So that's number one. And please keep doing that. Many of you have been huge advocates of the show. We also just want to remind you, too, if you're a restoration company owner and you're interested in a partner in your growth, you want some help building out systems, developing your leadership teams. helping set up the infrastructure for you to scale and grow into the company that you're trying to build. That's what we do. That's what we do is we come alongside restoration company leaders.

29:13 We help equip them and we help support them in that growth trajectory. So if you're looking for that, go to floodlightgrp.com. Potentially we could be a great match for each other. Another way that we really do serve our client base and our sphere of influence is through our premier partners. We work really hard to vet those folks that we believe bring a level of value to the industry, that it can really be leveraged in a way to have a sincere positive impact on your business. We take that very seriously. The folks that we create those kind of ongoing partnerships, that's not a check-the-box kind of scenario. We really see strategic alignment in the value that they bring. We see value in the way that their leadership teams and their partners are developed. And we've done very sincere work of ensuring that these folks that we introduce our clients and our sphere to can actually create vetted value.

30:01 So go check out floodlightgrp.com forward slash premiere slash partners and go to the next slide. and see if there's some folks on there that you can connect with and begin developing some other resources to support your growth and your business. Can we talk about that respect word? Yeah. No, seriously, because I have a frame for that. Like what was respect when I was growing up? Oh, sure. Respect was within a certain range. If an elder, like an adult, right, approaches you and tells you to do something, you better fucking do it. Yeah. It was kind of... That was the general theme, right? Like if I was at church or I was at school or whatever, it's like... There is no room for negotiation. That was part of respect was you have an elder that tells you to do something or you address them in a specific way.

30:46 You don't use certain words. There's a very large meaning to respect when it comes to a younger person respecting an older person merely because of their time and grade, let's say. Yeah, yeah. And I think that applied also in professional settings. Now, I'm not saying that's gone. Yeah. But I think I'm starting to see that there's a fair bit of egoic drive behind that definition of respect. Like, as a parent, I'm starting to see the limitation of me demanding that kind of respect from my kid in terms of, hey, if I say it, it's part of that command and control culture. Yeah, yeah. I'm starting to see the limits of that in terms of with regard to my relationship with my children. Yeah. Right? My demand for respect to that degree of you should listen because I'm your dad.

31:31 Yeah. I'm starting to see the flaws in that. Sure. You know, just in terms of the limits that puts on the relationship. Yeah. The us versus them dynamic that can kind of start to form where... I'm maybe not valuing them as much in the relationship. I'm placing some demands on them that they can't place on me. Yeah. You know what I mean? Sure. Like if my kid feels strongly about something, I think in that old context that most of us grew up in, that definition of respect, it doesn't go both ways. Yeah. And I'm starting to see the flaw in that. And I think in business, we're seeing this too, where it's like... when it comes to being an employer or whatever, there is that kind of command and control voice of, well, you're going to do it because I'm paying you to do it.

32:13 Yeah. You don't like that? Go somewhere else. That kind of mentality. And is it real? Well, yeah, it's totally real. You don't like something your employee says or they disagree with you? Well, yeah, you kick them on down the road because you can. Yeah. But I think we're starting to see the flaw in that of, well, sure, you have every right to do that. As a parent, maybe there is some inherent right. It's like, hey, you're providing for them. This is the role of the parent. They should just do what you say. Well, okay. Yeah. Maybe technically, you have the right until they're 18. But does it produce the outcome? I think that most of us want in terms of the relationship that I think most of us want to have to our children as they grow older and the kind of relationship we want to have with them as adults.

32:53 Does it create the open line of communication where we have the influence in their life that I think probably most of us want? And I'm starting to see, no, maybe not. And what does it look like for me to honor my children or extend that same kind of respect to them? Yeah. that I was kind of taught. And again, my parents, sometimes they listen to the podcast. I'm like, I never experienced my parents as being that to the nth degree. But I think it was just part of the culture that I grew up in when it came to respecting your parents and honoring authority. Yeah. I think there's an ego component to that of you should just because. It kind of is in line with that just because because I set those sort of response. No, I definitely...

33:34 Yes. So I'm trying to figure that out. That's far different though. You're right. There is a lot of that and it is carrying over. And that's the part that's broken. Yeah. And like with anything. Oh, yeah. And I think one of the things, again, I'm out in front of you five, six years. Yeah. I have smart kids. They're challengers. Oh, yeah. My oldest challenger. I mean, it's not take your word for it. Okay. And one of the things, so just like, this is such dangerous territory when we're talking about parenting. Guys, this is our perspective, our experience. We're not teaching anything right now. We're sharing. Okay? Sharing. All right. So when I think about as an employer, is it realistic? This is the battle I'm in. Okay, I'm going to get my words put together here.

34:15 This is the battle I'm in as a combination of an experienced employer and a parent with adult kids. Is this wrestling match of, yes, there is this balancing act of it's not command and conquer, command and control, especially when you hit that teenager to young adult age. to live an existence where there are no consequences for their actions, even though they just have a differing, in quotes, opinion. So, and this is the hard dance, is there are times where with my employees, as an example, there is an expectation and there's a lot of worldview and experience that is supporting the definition of that expectation.

35:00 Sure. It's not just my opinion. It's not whimsical. It's not because this is the road that I hoed. Any of those things. It's because there's real life technical data and facts that support that this has to be done this way. Period. And so the challenge is when our kids, our employees, because they're free to make their own decisions, choose a path. that in the moment feels very good for them. It feels good because from their limited, and that is a major important piece. Oh yeah. Their limited real world exposure and experience has not equipped them with the tools to make that level of decision.

35:41 And so in the moment, just like I can as an adult, I can get sucked up in how it feels right now, but I'm not thinking about how it's gonna be experienced later. They are going to make short-sighted decisions. And my people are going to do the same thing. And so the dance there is, and just I had to go through this with my kids, is at certain times I had to say, this is a non-negotiable. And I understand that if you're not on board with it, you may choose to move out. You may choose to do something different, but I just need you to understand that I have to put a boundary here. It's not going to feel good. I don't like it. I don't like it. I had rough experiences with my kids at times because I did this well, and I had rough experiences when I did it shitty, but it was still rough.

36:23 And it was this element, just like with my employees, there are times where I have to let someone go. I have to tell them this is a non-negotiable. And with my kids, I had to establish that same thing. And it was like, this is what's hard. As employers and parents, you can make decisions based on getting back or because you're angry. And then you can make decisions because you know it's the right thing to do. And those are not the same perspectives. And I often made decisions and took action with my kids because I was angry and I was getting back at them versus this is a boundary I have to teach you to understand because it's going to be very important for you later. And what I've found is sometimes that's really hard to differentiate what's happening inside me.

37:08 Yeah. Am I truly doing this or making this judgment or setting this boundary because it's what's right for them in terms of their safety, long-term consequences, real-life consequences to the family or other siblings or whatever, other people? Yeah. Am I really making this boundary or drawing this line because of that? Or because there is this very real part, like there's this very real pride and ego inside me that I want them to obey me. Yeah, no. And respect me for my role as dad and for all the things I've done for them and all the ways that I spend time, effort, and like that egoic place of, do you know what I've done for you?

37:49 You know, like that place, like that's really hard to differentiate sometimes. It is very hard. Yeah. And then you add in a lot of our religious upbringings. That's a whole other set of messages and values and principles and things that come into bear on that too, that we're kind of juggling. And in the moment, sometimes it's very hard for me to tell where my ego is and where there's rational thought and logic. And Oh, that's the dance. That is the hard thing. Yeah, that is that dance in that time period or in that second phase. It's so difficult. It's kind of funny when we started the show. We were like, I wonder if there's good parallels. They're so obvious. Oh. Right? It's like it's same with our employees.

38:31 And maybe the phases look a little bit differently because the phase is their time and grade and maturity in their role. It's the same concept. It's the same idea that there's going to be times I can allow them to disagree with me. And then there's times where I just can't for the health of the team, the health of the business, the health of our home. And I think that's an interesting thing because not everyone that listens to this show is going to be a parent. And not everyone that listens to our show is the employer. A lot of them aren't. And so I think let's think about this from the opposite side. And I think this is as parents why we get so frustrated. Our kids are struggling to see the impact of their actions outside of themselves. And that's the wrestling match. I think what happens in youth, and really as adults, we have a tough time growing out of this.

39:14 I mean, I know people that are older than me and they're fucked up still. They have no idea their impact on the people around them. They're so narcissistic and self-consumed. They haven't matured socially in this way. That awareness... And I think what a lot of people mistake is it's not just about developing self-awareness. It's awareness about the fact that you have a real impact on the people around you. Right, wrong, or indifferent, agree or disagree, you have an impact on them. And so you're not in a silo. You're not isolated. You don't get to just choose whatever the fuck you want. Because people are in relationship direct and indirect. My point with that little tirade is, often our employees and our kids are making decisions only based on how it affects them.

39:59 And that's why they can't agree with you. That's why they just can't understand what you're talking about. It's because they're not seeing it from the element of how does this impact others. It's all about what it's doing to them. And so we talk a lot about Jocko Welling's lead up the chain of command. That's what this is. This is an element of that. It's an element of learning and being aware about how is it the way I act and carry myself? How does that affect the people around me? And this is where our kids struggle. But as an adult, as the parent, and as the employer, sometimes you have to make decisions to protect the rest of the family. There were times, and I love my kids, and they're maturing and there's such great things happening in our relationship. So son or my daughter, if you listen to this.

40:41 But it took time for my son, as an example, my oldest, to begin to realize that. And once there was some connections that began to happen inside him, I couldn't control this, where he was starting to identify, oh. It wasn't just my dad telling me to do X because of me. It was dad telling me X because I was having a negative impact on everyone else in the household. And honestly, so for parents, because again, this is opinions and experience. This is not fact or teaching. Yeah. If you're in that place, like if you're in the dance and you're really wrestling with your kids, remember the challenge, that gap is because they don't see how it's affecting you.

41:25 They don't see how it's affecting your partner, your spouse. They don't see how it's affecting the rest of the kids in the house. Mm-hmm. And that challenge is you are, and you're actually coming into that situation from the perspective of you're trying to mitigate damage across the rest of the franchise, right? And they just don't get it. And there are some battle patients that are required. And in that, sometimes just like with our employees, I've had employees where I had to say, hey, enough is enough. You're no longer a part of this program. We're not going to kick our kids out per se. But there may be some things that you have to put a temporary no on or... Anyways, my point is what these employee relationship examples is. They leave my team. But because I was willing to provide that very clear boundary, later, later, the seed was planted.

42:11 And later, when they mature enough past that point, they all of a sudden look back and go, oh, that's what they meant. And now their new employer begins to see the fruit of somebody maturing. And you played a role in that. I think the only way that we can do that, and I've tried to do more of this with my kids, and guys, I fucked this up so bad more often than I didn't. But as an employer, like us remembering, hey, we may not be the ones that experienced this right away, but we still have a responsibility to help our people understand this perspective. And with our kids, and I know you and I are in a different wrestling match, part of what you're trying to do and part of the obligation you feel as a parent to teach these lessons is that you are worried about how it's impacting other people.

42:57 And there are going to be times where you have to draw a line in the sand in the sense of don't be responsible for the way they react and just let it ride. And then when they mature past that, hopefully that doorway of communication is open and then you can begin to proactively get back into that dialogue with them because they're ready to hear it. Right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm just realizing more and more in this season with teenagers, and my youngest is almost 12, but in a lot of ways, and I think maybe other parents, I think you probably speak to this, like the younger, I think just inherently matures faster because they're around. I mean, depending on the age breakdowns, but with the three years apart, it's like my youngest boy is... In a lot of ways, he's very mature because not only has he seen the older kids interacting with mom and I and discipline and just all these dynamics play out, I think he's able to learn vicariously through the elders.

43:47 Yeah. And I have a feeling that probably happens in bigger families too. But this season, I'm realizing it's more about me figuring my shit out. Yeah. Yeah. And like we talked about that wrestling match inside of, okay, am I trying to exert my authority here because I'm identifying too much with my reputation as a parent, how my other people see my kids? Yeah. How successful my kids are in the way that maybe others expect or my own just internal desire to compete? Yeah. to win, to be an A-plus player, is that I can get too attached to the outcome of my children and the way they're presenting themselves right now and the choices they're making right now is how much of that is coming to bear in this interaction, this one situation where they're challenging me in some way or they're pushing back on some kind of authority I'm trying to exert.

44:35 A hundred percent. How much of that's me? Yeah. And how much of it is me actually just loving and protecting them? It is a really fuzzy line. Yeah. Yeah. And if I'm honest with myself, I think more often than not, it has more to do with me. Yeah. If I'm really honest. Yeah. I was listening. So one of the authors, my wife and I have been reading, that's just been very, very challenging is Byron Katie. I brought her up before. Yeah. She wrote a book called Loving What Is. And it's really all just predicated on dealing with reality, man. Yeah. And how do you navigate reality in a really honest way? And she just talks about when it comes to parenting, that more often than not, our really only responsibility is to keep our side of the street clean.

45:15 It's like, we get really focused on trying to control what the other side does. And it leads to a whole bunch of negative outcomes. And when it comes to parenting, I think the way she would articulate it is, our job is to create a safe container for them to grow up in. It's like, Our job is to provide the incubator that's safe, right? Where we're available to them. And I don't think she's saying that there are no appropriate boundaries. Yeah. I don't think she's saying that at all. But I think sometimes we over-index on controlling our children's behavior to the nth degree. And I think for me, I'm just now starting to connect with a lot of that is because of how I want to look. And how I want to be perceived as a parent. And how my own identity is a successful person.

45:58 Yeah. of just how much I tie that to my kids' compliance or my kids following the path, taking the approach, having the right attitudes that I want them to have, you know, all those things. And what it does, sadly, is I think when I'm operating out of that, it erodes the connection, the real connection. It's good, yeah. I might get them to obey in the moment, but they're less likely to give me access. Like they're less likely to come to me with dad, like curious thoughts. Like, dad, what do you think about this? Or they're less likely to open their life up to me, which of course is what I want. Like I want to be present in their life. Yeah. Not just have them at home by 10 o'clock.

46:39 Yeah. But I think my goal as a parent is I want to have a relationship with my kids. And of course there's give and take to relationships. Yeah, you bet. So, and they transition, right? They change over time. One thing I was kind of thinking about as you said that, and then if you're cool with it, I kind of want to talk about this like third phase that I get to hang in now. But, you know, my wife has the same. My wife is, you know, at the end of the day, I kind of much heavier on the driver's side and my wife's much heavier on the relational side. And she tends to do a better job of not allowing her ego to get sucked into the moment. And she's still really prioritizing relationships. She's just naturally very gifted. And one of the things she's always said about our kids as they were growing up, and it's just a great reference point, is she says, my kids' self-centeredness is impeding on my self-centeredness.

47:25 It's like, it just... If you could just chew on that for a minute, and I think it's true as an employer too, just think about that. It's like, this person's self-centeredness is impeding on my self-centeredness. Unfortunately, that's more accurate more of the time than it is that I just legitimately have this lesson I'm trying to pass on to somebody for their good being. True. Thank God for our wives. My wife is absolutely the... Just that balance. Sometimes she's a heat-seeking missile to the truth of the situation. It's like, honey, this is the other day. She's like, honey, boy, you seem like you're really getting angry. What's going on? I'm like, I'm not angry. Why are you saying I'm angry? Stop judging me.

48:06 Oh my goodness. All right. So this third phase that I'm learning about now. Please tell me about the third phase. Yes, here it is. And it's interesting because like with anything, right? They all have their challenges. And I think this is almost like that new layer of leadership. So if we go back to draw those parallels with our maturing employees, as we begin to raise our employees into these, we talk about succession planning is a key critical element for leadership. And part of that then is what are we teaching? our employees? And then what are we prioritizing to make sure that we have time? So here's my kids now. Okay. 21, 23. And the reality that I'm coming more connected with is my kids are going to do one of two things in our relationship now. They're either going to allow me in most cases to pursue them...

48:49 And if I'm really lucky, they'll pursue me. But there's a reality. They're 21, 23 years old. Let's be honest about where we were at that age. Your shit's on fire, man. You think the world's still ready to be conquered. You got just enough information and experience to get into a great bar fight. You're ready to rock and roll. Now, seeking your parents' guidance out is probably not going to be second nature. It may not be the easiest thing for them to ask for. And I'm also still in my heroic journey in my early 40s. I'm building, I'm conquering, I'm developing. And what I can easily lose sight of is that my kids are actually more open now. But if I keep acting as if they're in phase two, I'm going to miss the opportunity because they're not going to go out of their way to ask me.

49:37 Okay. So what I mean by that, or what I'm learning is, I had the epiphany that, Oh my gosh, if I pursue my kids now, they're open. They want to have some guidance. They want a friend in the business. They want a partnership with somebody that can actually be a bit of a sage, a bit of a guide. But again, going back to my kids' self-centeredness and Peds Online, if I am so focused on building and thinking that by my actions, I'm mirroring for them what it looks like to win, I'm going to miss the mark now. Yeah. Okay, so this is funny, right? How these phases work. And some of this, you and I are just kind of banging out loud, but you said this thing of they're hyper-focused on your actions. Oh, yeah. Well, that part doesn't change.

50:17 So if I don't then slow my action and remind them that they're my priority, they're going to get the wrong lesson. Yeah. Right? They're going to be taught that, yeah, the grind is the magic to fucking work your ass off, like make all the money, be wise, be driven. That's the answer. And it's an and. Yeah. Like those toolkits are important, but what my kids need to see from me now is that I'm willing to slow down long enough to share the experience with them. Yeah. Transitions, right? This is the reality of our employee development, our kids' development too, is that those expectations and the role you have to play is going to shift and you have to be willing to do it. Yeah. And so recently, it's like I'm learning stuff about financial literacy that just blows my mind.

50:58 I had no idea because the masses don't even know a lot of the stuff that we're learning right now. But it's everything. It's the way that I think about my employer relationships, the way I think about my business partnership. It's the way that I think about my marriage. All those things my kids now will listen to. But I have to be the one that says, hey, let's get together on Tuesday mornings. Hmm. Hey, let's prioritize a Wednesday evening every other week or weekly or whatever so that we can share life together. I have to ask. And when I do, they jump. They take it. And I think as parents, we forget that when our kids begin to move into that young adult phase. We're still operating from phase two where we just know it's tough to get our kids' attention.

51:41 Yeah. Right? And that's a good reminder for you, man, is like, remember that. Like right now, I know it can be tough to keep your kids' attention because they're that age. Yeah. But there is a transition over the next four to five years where as long as you keep extending the invitation, eventually all of a sudden you realize, man, they're taking it every time. Yeah. Right? And we just forget that and we can lose the opportunity. And so right now I've moved into this phase that's very fun, where as I learn things, I have to be careful not to make assumptions. My kids won't be smart enough to understand it because I'm 40 and they're 23. And the reality of it is when I share these tidbits of information that's changing my life and changing my world perspective, they gobble it up, man, because they are adult enough.

52:22 You know what I mean? Yeah. Does that ring true at all from what you've seen from... 100%. Yeah. I'm also, I'm just thinking inside myself of, yes, 100%. This is such a hornet's nest for me right now. It's just such a vulnerable place for me, if I'm honest, where I think there's a lot of things that I've done wrong in hindsight. The rearview mirror is just so clear. And then there's also a lot of desire to shift gears. And so, yeah, it's a humble place for me right now. You know, one piece of encouragement to you, and again, I mean, these are all opinions, is, you know, we talk about battle patience. Yeah. Okay, it's this idea of... Patience is not a virtue we're told of entirely.

53:02 Most of us, right? So this idea with battle patience, right, is we have to, at times, give things enough time to develop before we make a change to the plan. Mm-hmm. And I think as parents, we often don't give enough time to the way that we're committed and behaving and acting. We often don't practice enough battle patience to let things develop. And we begin reiterating and changing and modifying because we're not seeing the result we want. And the reality of it is it takes years. And as long as we marry some simple things, and I know this is so much easier to say than do, but just why am I responding or acting a certain way? Is it truly for them or is it because I'm worried about how somebody else feels or it's my ego or it's the whatever?

53:46 If we can hone on that part and we really can see, maybe even through some peer network and some support and some friends, that we really are trying to approach that item for the best interest of our kids. hold the course, just maintain the course, give them some time to mature on their own, and you may realize that you were doing the right thing. Just hang in the pocket. It's like for me and my kids, man, it took years. And I'm just now seeing that, okay, not all of it was a circus fire. I mean, granted, you look backwards. I know I dicked some serious stuff up. But I also see that I just needed to exercise some battle patience and not own their response. And lo and behold, as they mature a little bit, they get a little more life experience under the belt.

54:29 All of a sudden, my kids start saying things like, Dad, you were right. You know, the other thing, too, that I'm also just like balance just some of the craziness of this time is with my kids. One of the things I'm dealing with is they're very independent, very strong willed. You know, that's kind of some of the fuel. It's kind of. Yeah. Right. It's really for both my wife and I were both. There's a streak of independence and stubbornness. And frankly, I look at my life and it's been a huge driver and some of the success I've been able to build. Yeah. And so there's this very real part of me that I'm starting to notice is, you know what? While it's creating some of the short-term turmoil, I know that that is the kind of attribute or that's the kind of internal...

55:10 nuts and bolts that helps people be really successful. It's quite possible that I'm raising a couple entrepreneurs at the moment here. Right. That as they sort out what they really want in their life, it's that fire inside them that's pushing back constantly that's going to help them build a business. or establish themselves in some other way to chart their own path. You know, I'd much, and I've been trying to remind myself more, remember this, I would much rather have my children pushing back on my authority than them passively just accepting and obeying everything I'm saying, right? Yeah, yeah. And so I try to remind myself of that as well. But that's, I push back on my parents pretty heavily. Yeah.

55:50 And it's part of what drives me forward. And you push back on life and what the masses say. And that's part of what allows you to continue to succeed. To create your own path. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. So, you know, I think we should title this episode, This is Messy. This is messy. That's right. We covered a lot of ground here and I'm uncertain about the value of it apart from what you've brought. You know, that's the thing that's interesting about our show. And I hope that that comes out in terms of... Look, the reality of it is Chris and I are really indexed on the fact that we're whole people. We're not just restorers. We're not just service providers. We're not just entrepreneurs and business owners. We're all these other elements about our relationships. And so are you. So is our audience, right? That's what we are. That's right. Right. And not always are we going to have a show and it's a lesson per se.

56:35 A lot of it is just reminding people you're not alone. These kinds of struggles exist. You're not the only one so that we can take some of that stress and anxiety out of what we do, thinking that we're all by ourselves and everybody else is kicking ass and taking names. Because the reality, it's just not truth. Yeah. So anyways, thanks for hanging out with us and going through a This Is Messy show. I think that it's probably part therapy for us. And maybe again, it serves as a reminder that you guys aren't alone and that we experience similar things. Hey, one of the things that's important for us to remind people, it's like, yes, we are consultants, right? You guys, many of you understand that we run Floodlight Consulting Group and that that's our in quotes day job. We're very passionate about that responsibility in terms of how we steward the relationships we have with our clients.

57:17 We're very keyed in on why we do this. For us, the consulting gig is not just a paycheck. For us, we went into consulting to literally try to help people, to marry up our perspectives and our experience with the fact that our restorers and our clients are whole people. and that their lives are diverse and complicated. And we try to not just partner on the nuts and bolts. We have to provide that. We're professionals. And if we don't bring that, then we're lacking some serious value. But the other elements that we try to index in our relationship with our clients is the fact that we want to work with you as a person. We're highly relational driven in our relationship. All the consultants that work with Floodlight are focused on that first and foremost. And we look at it as we have to bring tactical guidance.

57:59 You're getting paid. You have to be a professional. But where the real value for us is the relational component and what we do to help you and work through the rest of the elements of being an owner and a leader. And I think it's like we talk about this with RestorationCons. companies, right? It's how we make people feel in the process. It's not just do a good job doing repairs. So just reminding people of that. You can find out more about us at floodlightgrp.com. And then of course, if you like the show, you know what's most important to us guys is if you can hit that follow button and then share it with somebody because it just gives us the fuel that we need to continue to provide this as long as there's value. So if you guys can support us in that way, we sure appreciate it.

58:39 Thanks for hanging out with us. We'll see you next time. See you. All right, everybody. Heath, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart & Boots. And if you're enjoying the show, but you love this episode, please hit follow. Formally known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.