Ep 121 - "Tomorrow's Restorers" With Dr. Jake Avila

0:00 All right, welcome back to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast. This is Chris Nordyke, and we've got a great show for you today. So Brandon and I, in this episode, we are talking with Dr. Jake Avila of Middle Tennessee State University. And there's a couple of things that are really interesting about this. And in fact, you may find this so inspiring that if you have the resources, you may want to pull your checkbook out because Jake is doing something very interesting for our industry. Yeah. in that he is working on building out a restoration construction management degree program at Middle Tennessee State University within their existing construction management department.

0:40 He's already started fundraising and building a roster of partners that you can join, by the way. In fact, Brandon and I are going to be having a strategic conversation as to how we at Floodlight can be helping in this effort. But imagine this, in the not-too-distant future, having graduates coming out of Middle Tennessee State University with degrees in restoration, right? To be knowledgeable about project management and many of the other fundamentals in our business so they can step right into your company as a productive employee. It is very exciting. And I think what's even more exciting about that is If he's successful in deploying this program, it means that we're likely to see more of these programs come out of other universities.

1:21 And I think that's good for our industry. So check out the conversation. I hope it's as inspiring and exciting as it was for Brandon and I. Thanks for listening. And as always, subscribe, like, and share this with your friends and your employees in the industry. It's the best way to get the word out about Head Harden Boots. Thanks a lot. Wow. How many of you have listened to the Head Harden Boots podcast in the past? I can't tell you that reaction, how much that means to us. Welcome back to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brennan. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. This new camera angle makes my arms look smaller than yours. I'm noticing that and I really appreciate it. I thought you did that on purpose.

2:03 No, I don't. I didn't. And I am not happy with it. Hey, y'all. Thanks so much for listening to the show. Hey, if you're not already following, please do so. And ultimately share, right? The coolest currency that we have in terms of supporting this is share it with a friend, share it with somebody, a colleague, a peer, one of your downline team members. Let them be able to take advantage of the information you're already leveraging in your favor. And finally, guys, if you hear a show that really moves you, that really moves the needle, will you please leave us a review? Those five-star reviews help Right on. And listen, if you're trying to grow your business, you might consider checking out Floodlight's Business Opportunity Audit.

2:43 It's free. We provide it at no charge. It's actually what we use to assess new clients as they come in. It's 110 point assessment for your business. And we've now decided to give access to the general public for it. So go and take our business opportunity audit at floodlightgrp.com. It's going to help you identify the biggest gaps and opportunities in your business right now. And at the end, it'll assign you a health score to let you know exactly where your business stands right now. So go check it out, floodlightgrp.com forward slash audit and take the BOA. It's a great way to get a pulse on your business. Hey, Jake, man, we're really excited to have you. Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to come hang with us. Awesome. Thanks for having me.

3:24 I've been looking forward to this. So you and I connected the first time. We were kind of batting it around before we hit record. I mean, it had to be maybe 2018, maybe 2019. And so anyways, I've been curious about what you're building since the very beginning. I think when you and I talked last time, it was almost brainstorming stage. But in your own words, I think it would be really awesome for our listeners to hear what is it that you've got cooking over at the university specifically for us as restorers? Yep. Yep, absolutely. Yeah. So, yeah, like you're saying, I mean, this has really been brewing for some time. So what we currently have, you know, under planning right now is starting a degree concentration in restoration, right?

4:07 Not sure yet exactly what we would call it, whether it be restoration industry management or, you know, disaster restoration, but it would be a bachelor's degree in construction management with a concentration in restoration. And really, I mean, where this came from is, I think for the last several years, you know, when you first get in a higher education, you start teaching. You know, there's a lot of things you do, like in the classroom, right? You're teaching classes, but then you also are required to do research, right? And this is kind of, you know, part of being an academic. And it is a fun part of it. But I think sometimes, you know, when you look at writing academic papers, I mean, they're just... They're not always fun to write and they're rarely fun to read. But I was committed to doing a lot of research focused on the restoration industry.

4:52 So when we first started looking at research projects, what I did is I teamed up with some folks, one of which was Les Cunningham, who's really been supportive of everything for a long time. So Les and I have been just bouncing ideas off each other for a long time. He's been supportive of... of all the research projects that I've been a part of. So he personally has written checks to help fund our research. Wow. Business networks in general, the members of business networks have written checks to fund our research. Because when you take on an academic study, you know, it can be pretty expensive when you start looking at, sometimes you have to bring in, you know, consultants. Sometimes you have to... The instrumentation you use can be expensive as well. And so they've been just super supportive with all of that.

5:34 So it started out with, I mean, a focus group with Les and some of the BN members. And I just said, hey, you know, I'm a professor now because, you know, I transitioned from industry. I was working in restoration since I was a kid, but pretty much my whole adult life, I was working in the restoration industry. And so when I made that transition, you know, I reached out to the group and said, hey, you know, I'm a professor. You know, I'm a professor now. I want to do research on things that are going to be important to you all. What are some things that you care about? And so the first study we did was we looked at family business dynamics within the restoration industry. Oh, wow. So so what I did is I took on the work of, OK, that's important to you all.

6:15 I'm going to learn everything I can about family business. And so I took time right up on family business. I became I mean, I say this kind of tongue in cheek, but I, you know, I became a family business expert. Right. I read all the academic articles on it. I read all the books on it. I talked to family business consultants, found the right instrument. We did all of our data collection. You all might remember, you know, seeing some of the advertisements, but we got all of our data back. analyzed our data, got it published in a peer-reviewed journal, right? Had some follow-up articles. So Restoration and Remediation magazine was super supportive of all of that, which Michael Balzano, I mean, he's awesome, dude. He's still, I mean, very supportive of everything we're doing right now.

6:59 That's awesome, dude. And the reason why I did that is, you know, when you look at academic papers, I mean, sometimes you write an academic paper and then it just ends up being a conversation amongst academics. Yeah. And I wanted to do something different. So, like, that is important to what I do as an academic, but I really wanted to do work that was going to be meaningful for industry. And so that's why there's also been a heavy focus on the magazines and what we call professional, you know, literature, professional publications. Yeah. So what I did is I did that. I went around the country, spoke at, you know, different events, different conferences, talked to different restoration groups. And the feedback that I got was super supportive. They said, hey, you know, Jake, thank you for doing this work.

7:40 You know, we love it. But what can you do to help us with our personnel issues? Like, what can you do to help us get more people in the pipeline? Yeah. And that was just kind of a reoccurring thing, right? Because after we did the family business research, we then did research on employee burnout in the restoration industry, right? Yeah. And it was a similar deal. And that article actually got published in one of the highest academic journals. So it was through the ASCE, the Journal of Construction, Engineering, and Management. And so we got that data published. Had some more, you know, magazine professional literature articles that came out of that. Did another tour, you know, talked to industry groups, spoke at a couple of conferences.

8:22 And it was the same deal, right? So I get back and I'm talking to everybody and I say, hey, we love what you're doing. We love that you're doing research for the industry. But what can you do to help us figure out all these issues with getting more people in the pipeline? And I don't want to sound redundant, but I had a couple more studies and it was the same feedback every time. Like, hey, what can you do to help us? So a lot of what we're trying to do right now with that degree concentration is addressing that. Right. We always got back to, hey, we love what you're doing, but what can you help us with this? This is an answer to that. Yeah. Okay. So I'm really excited to start hearing you break down your vision for what you guys are building. But you just touched on it for a second.

9:03 You're like, I was in the family business. I grew up in the industry. I think that's super relevant. So I think just to get us started, why? Why do you care about the disaster response industry specifically? Yeah. Yeah. One, I think that the industry has just been really good to my family. And, and I love the industry. I mean, growing up, you know, my dad, he started our family restoration business in 1990. And my dad's an awesome dude. Love the man. He's just, yeah, he's my hero. So he's a he's a great guy. And so just what's that? Why? What? Yeah. Like give, I know you probably have a lot of years of definition, but what, what are the top one, two, three things that just kind of have sunk in and really made that connection?

9:50 Yeah. So, I mean, my dad, you know, he, uh, he loves the Lord. Right. And so like growing up, growing up in a Christian home, You know, it wasn't something that we just did as a family. It wasn't just going to church. I mean, my parents really, both of them, they really, truly lived out their faith. And just watching them do that in such an authentic manner, I think, certainly influenced me. So I love that. Right. So and my dad was super engaged. So he was at my games, whether soccer or baseball. You know, I had this itch for a season in life to get into martial arts, and my dad was in high school, he wrestled. And so for him, you know, he just got into martial arts classes with me.

10:32 And so, you know, it was just, it was awesome doing that. Yeah, he would take his fishing growing up. So it was always just, like, quality time. It's always just, like, a very well-balanced man. I mean, he... Has a very strong business acumen, just a super sharp businessman. So it was always interesting to just watch him at work and then to see him at home. And he just, I think he just did a great job of, I think, managing all of that really well. I don't think it's very common for people to talk about entrepreneurship and businesses and then in the same breath, talk about that same person being really great at being present and at games and at home.

11:13 Yeah. That sounds pretty superhuman because I know it's not very common from firsthand experience, right? I've both messed that up and experienced the mess up. Yeah. That's, that's wild. Okay. So you literally grew up in this then. And what did that journey look like for you coming up in your restoration company? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, in high school, it was, you know, it was doing board ups, things like that in the evenings and on weekends. And then coming out of high school through college, after college, you know, I just wore a lot of different hats, right? So, I mean, I spent a lot of years estimating, even when I wasn't an estimator, right? So, if I was running projects, I was also an estimator.

11:53 If I was general manager, I was also an estimator. If I was Working with the emergency crews, I was also an estimator. So I wore a lot of different hats, worked on everything from, you know, marketing and sales to business development, running the office, working with all the different carriers. You know, we were pretty early on with a lot of the TPAs. So, you know, I got to know TPA worked really well. What else? Okay, this is reaching back a little bit further than where we're at in the timeframe that's in my head right now. But I remember like growing up and this is, you know, pre my adult year. So because we started, my parents started the family restoration business in the downstairs bedroom of our house.

12:34 And I remember coming in and my dad would have his scope notes, right? And then he would have the secretary type them up on a typewriter. And then I remember him coming home one night and just telling my mom, like, hey, there's this new program. It's called Xactimate. And I think it's really going to change things and how we do stuff around here, right? And then he was also getting like an accounting software and other stuff like that. So looking back, I learned on the DOS version of Xactimate. And yeah, and he wasn't wrong. That's for sure. I mean, it definitely changed and shaped a lot of what we all do today. And that was what about a 17 year run, right? That you were part of the business and actively engaged in the business?

13:15 Yeah, so of my adult life, yeah. So, yeah, so it was like 1997, 1998 until about probably 2016. Okay. Yeah, 2017. Okay. Now, what triggered this? By the way, Chris, I'm sorry. I've got like so many questions lined up in my head. Jump in anytime. But what... Education. So here you are, you're a restorer, you've filled all the seats in this restoration company, you're working on 17, 18 years of that, and then all of a sudden you decide I'm going into academia? What shifted that? So my family is very enterprising, right? So my parents are both of them. You know, I've been talking about my dad.

13:55 My mom's awesome too. I mean, she's an amazing business operator. So we had the family restoration business. We had a restaurant in downtown Riverside called the Tamale Factory. We had, well, now our family has a venue in downtown Riverside. My dad has gotten into avocado farming. So just like hands in a lot of different things. But, you know, restoration was really, I mean, the main thing, especially for one of my brothers and I and then for my dad. But the way that I got into the whole teaching thing was being an entrepreneur in town. There was a college in town that had advisory boards, like industry advisory boards.

14:36 So they would bring in industry people to speak into, you know, how they shape the academic programs and, you know, the curriculum and things like that. And so. So I was on a couple of those. So there was a university in town where I sat on one for an entrepreneurship degree program and then for a real estate development and construction program. Okay. And it was after one of those board meetings where another board member was a department chair at another college in town. And so we were sitting on this board together. And it was after one of the meetings where he, you know, he came up to me and was like, hey, you know, I have this entrepreneurship class in my college. You know, the guy that normally teaches it, he flaked on me.

15:19 You know, it's about to start. Would you be interested? And I said, yeah. Yeah. I'll give it a go. And I loved it. Like I got, I got home after my first night of class and I went and sat down with my wife and I'm like, Hey, that was, it was awesome. And it's really hard to imagine myself doing anything else for the rest of my career. And so I think from that point on, it was just kind of like a slow, cause then, you know, the other thing, my wife and I, you know, cause she, she had a sacrifice too, is I had to go back to grad school to get my doctorate. Oh, wow. And running a business and going to school. Wow, that is wild.

15:59 You committed to pain right out of the gate on that one. We joke about it because, yeah, I think my first year of grad school, I think I had the flu or flu symptoms three times. And I was just laid up because, you know, yeah, it's just a lot. Yeah. What was it, man? So that, I mean, obviously something happened in that classroom. What is it? What keeps you coming back to teaching? Yeah, so I think, one, I love the learning process. You know, I love education. I love being a student. You know, interestingly, like I've always been deathly afraid of talking in front of people. Right. So that's something that I had to, I just really had to work on.

16:41 And so like, it wasn't that part of it because that was something that I just like, even now and I speak at conferences and things like that, it can be hard for me to do that. We joke, though. So knowing that I was deathly afraid of talking in front of people, when my wife and I got married, we had like over 400 people at our wedding. And I decided that I was going to say something at our wedding. And so I wrote down everything I was going to say. I rehearsed it, memorized it, and I had it down. And then I got up at our wedding reception, and not a single word I wrote down, not even a point I wanted to convey came out of my mouth.

17:26 We got it all on tape. We got it all on tape. Referring to you often. Awesome. But I think at that point, too, I also said, you know, as uncomfortable as it is, I'm going to try and seek out. you know, opportunities to just, I think, challenge myself in that area. And so I think there is an element where that challenged me in an area where I was just really uncomfortable. And so I think there was there was that. But I think ultimately, I love that age group. You know, when when just working with that, that age demographic scene of the 18 and 21, I just have a lot of fun with them. And and I think it's those are just very formative years when you're looking at the professional development of people.

18:07 Yeah. And so I love being a part of that because even with what I do now, you know, I teach construction estimating. I teach scheduling. I teach contracts. And while I like to focus on the technical aspects of what they're you know, what we need to learn and what we need to cover. I also focus heavily on just working with young people on, hey, what does it look like to have a good attitude when you go to work? Right. What does a strong work ethic look like? how can we be more teachable, right? And, you know, how can we also just embrace that? And, you know, I think sometimes we focus a lot on what it's like to manage people and how we want people to behave for us that we're trying to manage. And at the same time, I don't think we reflect enough on thinking, you know, how am I as an individual for someone else to manage that?

18:52 And am I able to think beyond myself? And am I able to put on the lens of, hey, what's in the best interest of the company? What's in the best interest of my teammates? And how can I make a valuable contribution to that and just set myself aside? And so... enormous, man. That's so foundational to someone's success. I mean, that's almost more important than any other curriculum to a certain extent, right? Yeah. That's phenomenal. It's funny. So as you're, I kind of want to get spun out. It's hard not to, I should say, like just kind of your interpretation of the minds of those students in terms of how they're thinking about the professional world. I'd like to get into that, but I also don't want to stray away from getting some more clarity from you on the...

19:37 the program as it sits today, what you're envisioning, what you guys are actually building. I think ultimately that'll get us back to that. We can start talking a little bit more about what you're hearing and seeing on the ground level because it's super relevant. Yeah, absolutely. So there's a fundraising component with this, right? So what we're trying to do right now is we're trying to raise $3 million. And just for a little bit of context with this, whenever universities bring in money, most of the time they're taking overhead right off the top, right? They call it F&A. It could be facilities and administration or finance and administration. But usually it's going to be 30% to 60% that they take off the top. And then the money that's left over actually goes towards the cause. Right.

20:18 What's great about our position right now is the university is very supportive of this proposal. And so what they've done, and for our university in particular, it's 31.3% is what's typically taken off the top. For this specific concentration and the money we're raising right now, they're not going to take any overhead. So that money goes into a foundation account and then there's a guaranteed 4% return every year on that money. And so the first part is we need the faculty position in place in order to lead this degree concentration. Right. And so that faculty, that million dollars is going to cover... $40,000, you know, return every year, which a faculty salary and benefits and all those things are certainly much greater than that.

21:06 The university is going to cover that difference. Right. But the other thing the university has to do is what this faculty position. So hypothetical, right? and this is one of the things we're talking about is, you know, hypothetical would be me being the one that, that transitions into that role. Right. So what that does is that leaves a gap of my current course load. And so then the university has to bring in somebody else, right. To, to step in and take my current course load. And so they're going to cover that, right. So that they're going to bring on another faculty member to take on that course load. So for the university, it's a pretty substantial investment on that end, but yeah, In order to really get it going, that first million dollars is right now, it's our number one highest priority because until we have that dedicated faculty line for the concentration, we really can't do a whole lot.

21:56 So we're not going to be able to develop the curriculum for it. We're not going to be able to have somebody to teach it, to market it, do all the academic advising and all that stuff that needs to get done with it. So that's priority number one. The other $2 million is going to go towards, and same guarantee on that, 4% return. So $80,000 return a year. The university is not going to take overhead off the top of that. And of that $2 million, that money is going to go towards student scholarships, right? So students that are wanting to study restoration. scholarships to send students to industry conferences, right? So we'd love to send them to the Experience, RAA, the Barris Conference, you know, any of the industry conferences to engage with the industry.

22:41 Go meet restoration contractors, do recruiting stuff there, get internships, get jobs, you know, whatever they got to do, we want to put them in the face of industry. We have scholarships to send them to get industry certifications. So they go get IICRC certifications, they can go to, you know, DeWald School, REITs, you know, wherever they want to go, we want to find out and then go get, you know, Xactimate certifications. So that $2 million in the return we'll get on that every year is going to go towards those types of endeavors. We also want to be able to spend some of that money getting faculty trained, because I think part of this is the more we train people to teach in this type of a program, it's going to overall, it's going to benefit this type of effort long term more.

23:23 Right. So I think that's one of the other challenges we have is just not having enough people to teach this going through the pipeline right now. Yeah, makes sense. You know, in the interest, there may be some people listening. I mean, on the one hand, raising a million bucks or three million bucks in some contexts is like, holy cow, that's a big undertaking. And then I think all of us are aware that there's some people listening to this podcast potentially where because of the size of their company, right? We have a lot of huge industry players where a million, three million bucks, not much at all. given the potential value of a program like this, a resource to be able to send their people to for further education and so forth. Can you cast some vision about where you'd like to take this program once that funding's in place?

24:04 I know you mentioned in a previous conversation that Purdue has kind of paved the way for this kind of education, but their course curriculum has been fairly limited in terms of actual specific restoration courses. What, cast some vision. you know, about kind of the scope of curriculum that you think that you guys can bring to this program and kind of the different areas of the business that it's going to touch. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so looking at, and with Purdue, so Randy Rapp's been heading that program up for quite a few years. Great guy. They have a great program. I know that, I think he has some online modules too, which is great for the university, especially for companies that want to have Their folks do some, you know, continuing education and get a certificate.

24:49 Randy wrote, I think, one of the first university level textbooks on the subject, more from like a federal response to like large scale disasters. So like Katrina. And so they've done a lot of great work over there at Purdue. What I'm proposing right now to do with our program would be to have a five course sequence. So the first class would be like an introduction to restoration. Right. So it's where they're going to learn about structure drying. Maybe we'll even weave in an industry certification related to that to learn about fire damage repair. They'll learn about, you know, what goes on with fire. temporary shoring if you have some type of impact, right?

25:31 Where you have a car that goes through a garage or goes through a roof or, you know, a plane flying into a house or a helicopter, whatever, right? Just what's the general nature of the work that restoration contractors do? What's behind the science of drying? What's behind the science of cleaning and, you know, dealing with smoke and odor and, you know, all that stuff. And then from there, we want to have a semester where they're doing it. emergency and mitigation estimating, right? And so, and we're going to take them right now. I have a proposal to get about 14 docu-sketch camera kits where we can start training them on that technology, but getting them acclimated and trained in emergency and EMS and mitigation estimating.

26:13 A semester where they're focused on like structural repairs, right? So the putback you know, maybe have them do some fire damage repair estimates, just have a variety that they can do for the vertical stuff, have a semester where they do an internship, right? So we want them to plug in with an internship. And so what we want to do, the overall aim with the classes is to just get them well rounded and prepared for a career in restoration. And then the fifth course would be project management. So specifically a project management course specific to the restoration industry. Now this is surrounded by this other, what would be, I just want to make sure I use the right term, construction management program.

26:58 So it's part of the curriculum of a larger program, right? A larger degree. Correct. It would be a Bachelor of Science in Construction Management with a concentration in Restoration. Okay. Can you just kind of highlight for us, what are kind of those other core elements then that this student's going to be developing in and getting exposed to? Yeah, absolutely. So during their core classes, they're taking plan reading. They're taking an introduction to estimating class, which I currently teach. We have two concentrations within our concrete industry management program.

27:40 So all of our construction students and one of our concrete concentration groups go through my estimating class. And in my estimating class, I teach Xactimate. So Xactimate has been, they have been so amazing, so great to work with, so supportive of everything that we've done. I can't say enough great things about them and their team and how they've helped us because You know, by them working with us and being our partners and allowing us to use the software, it's been such a great tool for students to learn how to estimate. As a training tool, Xactimate's fantastic the way you can show them how the pricing works, all the components, what goes into the work.

28:20 It's just it's such a fantastic tool. And so so they're getting you know, they're getting that through my estimating class. They also have the option of getting their level one certification. So whether students are going into restoration or not, they're getting some of the tools right now as we speak, even before this concentration gets going. They have class in contracts. So plan reading, estimating, contracts, project management. They're learning about materials and methods. So, I mean, they get a very well-rounded construction education. That's pretty awesome. What about this like soft skill part? I can't remember. You were talking specifically to that, obviously working with the student age.

29:03 How's that getting woven in there? Because clearly it's a priority for you. How's that happen under the program, essentially? Yeah. So, you know, it's really on each instructor, right? So we don't have like a soft skill class specifically. They do have the option of taking electives. So some students will take electives and their electives might be related to sales or marketing or accounting, you know, so that's. They have flexibility in how they do that. We don't have a class that specifically focuses on that. So for me personally, I just weave it into discussions that I have with students throughout the semester. And I'll talk about, you know, whenever the opportunity presents itself, if we're talking about concepts related to project management, right?

29:50 You know, we'll talk about the technical aspects of project management, but then we'll also talk about some of the other practical things that come up as you're managing a project. Like, how do we work in teams? How do we work well with others? We'll talk about emotional intelligence. And so it's through just the, I guess, the natural progression of going through that material where I'll personally, I will weave in those discussions. And then quite often, you know, in class, students end up asking me questions, you know, about stuff. And it just leads to just great dialogue where we're able to tackle a lot of that stuff. So, you know, a question that's been percolating in the back of my head is 17 plus years in the industry yourself, right? What we haven't talked about yet is what have been some of your biggest learning experiences and takeaways from operating in the industry that like are kind of in the backdrop of your teaching with students?

30:53 your teaching and this desire to create a program around this? Like, do you mind sharing some of the wins and challenges that you encountered? Yeah, so I think, you know, some of the most impactful challenges were related to, I think, how I mishandled situations. And just looking back and reflecting on a conversation with someone where maybe I was too abrasive or abrupt. And then I think, you know, over time, I think if we try and learn from those experiences and if we just have meaningful reflection on it, we can think, you know, yeah, I definitely could have handled that better. And looking back and realizing that there were, I mean, there were a lot of people I had to go back and apologize to because of how I conducted myself. You know, maybe I lost my temper.

31:34 And I think growth-wise for me personally, it's looking back at some of those things and just realizing that, you know, I didn't have to be abrasive in order to hold someone accountable. Right? And I guess just trying to learn from some of those experiences. Right. You know, when it comes to, I think, the restoration part and just having an appreciation for it, I remember there was a loss. I walked and this was probably, I don't know, as well over 20 years ago. And I remember that, you know, I just had like a real quick description of what we were going to go in there and do. Like I knew that there was a broken window and I knew we had to replace some flooring. Right. I didn't know all of what happened in there. So I knock on the door.

32:16 husband and wife come into the door. They take me to where the damage was. And I just learned that the 17 year old son had just killed himself like just a few days prior. Right. So here I was bringing a technical skill set. I'm trying to, you know, I want to fix the floor, paint the walls and do what we got to do. But then it just opened my eyes to the fact that, you know, we're not just a part of like this technical professional that's coming in. You end up being so much more to a lot you're trying to have a business relationship, but at the same time, they're living in the home and they have like a real need. So for a lot of people, I think with a lot of contractors, you end up being their hairdresser, their bartender, their therapist, like, you know, whatever.

33:00 And so I saw a great opportunity just to connect with people in such a time of need, because they didn't ask for this, yet here we are. And I think, unfortunately, there probably are a lot of folks that go in there and they're just They don't connect with them on that level. They just get in, get out. And there's such an opportunity to help people recover from disasters. And I think how we, if we can appreciate that, I think we can also serve them better. Just, I think being sympathetic towards those things and just understanding that there's a lot that went on, right? Because here they just lost their son and I'm helping them pick out new flooring and paint colors. And, you know, it's just, it's rough.

33:41 Yeah, it's like a double-edged sword. I always felt like it's like there's the downsides of it because, you know, somebody didn't spend six months planning and being all excited about Go Day, you know, with obvious reasons. They're hit blindsided by this event or whatever the case may be. So there's some challenges, right? When people are in their worst situation. But there's something pretty darn rewarding that not only are we just doing work and spending somebody's money, but we're doing work that ultimately is helping bring their life back together. And that was always kind of the thing that once I was exposed to the industry the first time, I didn't want to leave because of that, even though I had plenty of points where I was like... man, this can be a frustrating experience.

34:25 It's fun being in the industry that I feel like still creates superheroes. And I felt like that's like, in my mind, it's like, gosh, how can we get this message out to more people that this is not just a construction industry, It's a construction industry where we literally have the opportunity to be heroes. And if we really take advantage of that and live into that, it's a wildly rewarding experience. But it just seems like the pipeline is not exactly opened up to full. Let's put it that way. It's so challenging. Yeah. Liftify.com forward slash bloodlight. You've heard Brandon and I talk a bunch of times about the importance of Google reviews.

35:07 Maybe you even heard our episode with Zach Garrett, the CEO and founder. Recency, consistency, two of the most important things when it comes to maximizing the benefit from your Google reviews. Why not use an outside partner? Liftify is targeting 20 to 25% conversion, right? So if you do a thousand jobs a year, you ought to be adding right now, 200 to 250 reviews a year, every single year. If you're not doing that, you owe it to yourself to get a free demo from liftify.com. See their system, see how it works, see how affordable it is. I promise you, you'll thank us. Liftify.com forward slash bloodlight. You know, we spend a lot of money and a lot of attention trying to get that first call.

35:49 And one of the things that we do once it happens is sometimes we leave it to chance, right? Who picks up the phone? How do they respond? How do they walk that client into a relationship with us? Well, one of the benefits of partnering with a team like AnswerForce.com is we can systemize that. We can make it more consistent. We can also have backup for when our teams need that help, right? Somebody goes on vacation. Somebody's out sick. You know, we get a storm surge. We get cat event. All sorts of things can have an impact on how we receive that client. But the most important thing is they need to know that they've chosen the right team. And so AnswerForce.com can support you, be a bolt-on partner to help you consistently produce an awesome onboarding experience with that first call with your client.

36:32 So AnswerForce.com forward slash... blood light. That's great. CNR Magazine, we're friends with all the folks at CNR. Michelle and her team, they do a great job of keeping their ear to the ground and reporting all the important information from our industry, right? You want to stay up on all the M&A activity and what the latest best practices are for selling your company successfully, right? She's got that great articles about all the four quadrants of our business, right? CNR is constantly pushing out great material and leveraging great writers and subject matter experts in our industry. It is the water cooler of our industry. So if you're not subscribed, go to cnrmagazine.com. Follow them on LinkedIn.

37:13 Follow Michelle on LinkedIn. Trust us. If you're trying to stay on top of everything happening in the industry, your best destination is cnrmagazine.com. You guys, many of you have already heard about actionable insights and the training and the technical expertise that they bring to the industry. But how many of you are already leveraging the actionable insights profile for Xactimate? That's the game changer. It's essentially an AI tool that's walking alongside of you as you write your estimate, bringing things to your attention that should be added, that could be considered. All of them items that increase our profitability, increase the effectiveness and the consistency of that scope. And it can do anything from helping a new team member assimilate some estimating best practices.

37:58 And it also helps the grizzled vets add back that few percent that we've just forgot over time. So Actionable Insights, get insights.org forward slash floodlight and take a look at what the Actionable Insights Exactimate profile could be doing for you and your team. A lot of our industry, we fall in because it becomes so familiar and normal, right? We fall into the technical. We just, we revert to the technical knowledge and prowess because that also can feed our egos. We have the answers. We can fix your problem. And I think a lot of times we just, we don't have that whole... emotional support, like how we make people feel by recognizing sort of the situation we're in and the context around it.

38:41 Instead, we can just hyper focus on the technical and miss that. Yeah. And it's much less satisfying, I think, when we're totally oriented around the technical and we can just get caught up in how chaotic the work is. Yeah. We lose sight of that. The stress of it. So, yeah. It's interesting, Jake, as I'm kind of like thinking through some of the things that you've been saying. I mean, obviously, one of the challenges that I feel like we face on a regular basis is I think we misunderstand the current generation coming into the workforce. Like we've got a ton of assumptions. We have a ton of, let's call it opinions, on what's in alignment, what's not, what they like, what they don't like. And I think if we're honest, because at least this is what I'm experiencing with my own kids, I feel like 90% of my knowledge is actually assumption.

39:28 And when I dig in and start asking questions, actually, I've got a lot to learn. What are you experiencing firsthand with this age group? Because not only are they obviously active students, but this is the workforce that's coming into our businesses right now. Help me understand the differences between reality and all the dumb assumptions that I'm making about an entire generation. Because I know it's happening. Yeah, we all have them. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, we hear all the people talking, you know, I know Simon Sinek and, you know, there's a lot of people that have weighed in on this. And, you know, how do we deal with this younger generation? The ones that grew up where everyone got a trophy and that have been sheltered.

40:10 And certainly I think we're seeing the consequences of that, right? Yeah. You know, helicopter parents, and that certainly has had an influence on this generation. I think, you know, but, you know, the interesting thing when I consider that is, you know, sometimes we'll hear, like, there's certain things we'll, behaviors we'll watch and we'll immediately pin that towards a millennial. Right. Oh, yeah. Oh, you know, they're stuck on their device. You know that, hey, you know, another millennial that they're on TikTok. But what's interesting is I know some boomers who are if we're if we're going to use that as a standard, I know some boomers that are more millennial than millennials. Right. Yeah. And so I think part of it is generationally, yeah, there's things that we see emerging with that, that every generation is different.

40:57 And there are things like that. I think one of the things that I'm most concerned with isn't something that's just affecting this younger generation. It's like a lot of the technology. And so you're hearing this is like, I mean, personal bias you hear coming out of my mouth right now. So I just want to like throw out that disclaimer. Yeah. I just think that social media and devices and all of that is, I think there's unintended consequences. And I think it has had cognitive effects that have come with it. Right. So if you think about how we've externalized our brains to these devices. Right. So knowledge is something where if I want to know something, well, I don't have to memorize it. I can just I can Google it real quick. Right.

41:38 I don't have to memorize phone numbers anymore. I can just, you know, pull it. Yeah, I can't remember the last time I memorized a phone number, you know, but then I think even looking beyond that in a like social media and TikTok and the way that people get glued to their devices. And we got to consider what are the implications for our social skills, our attention spans? or situational awareness, like, you know, all these things that I think are really important. And, you know, and while I can't cite a specific study right now, and I can get you the links if you need them, but I do know that there's a lot of evidence that suggests that, you know, it's making us all dumber, right?

42:20 Yeah. I think I can argue against it, but I'm sure that's a hot topic for another session. So you're seeing that. And if we're honest, I think that's where some of these kind of category assumptions and stereotypes come from is that we can... obviously see some real life implications that that is certainly the case. I think especially the one where you're saying around situational awareness. I mean, I catch myself sometimes stepping out of our office here to walk towards my truck and I'm trying to do my last minute wrap up email or text message. And I get to my pickup and I realized, I just walked three blocks and I So then you think about going to a disaster response scenario, disaster restoration scenario, a project site.

43:10 Yeah, that could certainly be at play. But I think too, what I want to kind of dig into a little bit is, but a lot of that stuff is not everything either. Like we make these assumptions that that's who they are. Like we help create their identity, that all they are are these things, which are normal challenges that you and I are even facing as older adults. Yeah. What are we missing the mark on? Like what gets you excited to work with that group? You must see something in them that gets you up and motivated to create an entire program to support them. So what are we missing? What is the opportunity for us in this generation of workers that's coming online?

43:50 Yeah, I think for that age group, I love seeing the excitement because everything in their minds is just right on the horizon, right? They have careers right on the horizon. And so I see an eagerness and an excitement about just getting ready for that, right? Stepping into adulthood, stepping into, you know, whatever that next phase of life is, whether it's getting married and having kids or just being more independent or moving to that state that they wanted to move to or just taking on that job. I think for a lot of our students, one of the things that excites me to watch them do is to get their job offers. Right. So we're in a discipline where we have pretty close to 100 percent placement rate.

44:30 Wow. which not every major on college campuses can really, you know, really has those bragging rights, which we do. Yeah. And so for them, we have students that right before they graduate, sometimes several months before they graduate, they have multiple offers in hand. Wow. Right. And then they're weighing all of these offers. So they have, you know, an offer from this contractor that can take them to Florida and they have an offer from this contractor that could take them to Texas or they can stay here with their family or, you know, or wherever. So so I think there's there's just a lot of excitement that I have watching them go through that. I think missed opportunities. So we had our first restoration industry conference here at MTSU this past fall.

45:12 And I can say 100% that all of our students that connected with the restoration contractors that were here and in the group in general were excited about restoration. I mean, all of them now want to go into restoration and they're pursuing jobs in restoration. And so I think an opportunity for the industry right now would be to just engage more young people. Right. So we had a we had a career event this last fall and we had about one hundred and seventy five employers on campus, production, home builders, commercial contractors. So of those one hundred and seventy five, how many do you think were restoration contractors? I hate to hear the number because I know it's not high.

45:53 Okay. There's one, right? Yeah. So I think a missed opportunity for restoration contractors is making those connections because it's not a hard sell, right? Yeah. Because here's another part of our, one, it's gratifying work. It's challenging work. There's an excitement about, you know, the nature of the work that we do, right? Right. because you're still working on structures, you get to see all kinds of crazy things. So, you know, on my end, I think for my wife and I having a restoration background has really helped us with our real estate investment, right? So it's like, if I go to buy a house, you know, I have a good sense as to, you know, hey, what's that going to, what's it going to take to fix that? Do I want to walk from that, right?

46:35 Asbestos doesn't scare me, mold doesn't scare me. Like, you know, there's certain, well, it's Depends on the mold, but in the situation with it. But you have a really good sense, right? So that's a very practical skill set that you can develop in restoration that could help you with your investing, right? So when students hear about that, that excites them because a lot of them are thinking about buying their next home or growing their custom home building business or their real estate empire, you know, all these different things. And so it's great training for that. The other thing that I think restoration contractors can share, which is, I think, a missed opportunity right now, is the, and we all know this, right? But there's always going to be fluctuations in the economy, right?

47:15 So whether it's interest rates, recessions, Whatever happens, right? There's always going to be fluctuations in any industry, right? You know, when money gets more expensive, a lot of the times that custom home building tends to dip, right? The remodels tend to dip, right? When money gets more expensive, the commercial development sometimes could slow down, right? Or sometimes some of that stuff completely stops. Well, what's unique about restoration, and again, I know you guys know this, but it doesn't matter who's the president. It doesn't matter if it's Donald Trump or Joe Biden, right? Disasters still happen. It doesn't matter what interest rates are, right? At the end of the day, it's probably one – nothing's recession-proof, I don't think, but we have a niche that's very resilient to fluctuations in the economy, right?

47:59 Mm-hmm. And so and with that, right, again, doesn't matter what's going on. You're always going to have floods, fires, landslides, earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, trees falling on buildings, cars driving into them. And it's always got to be fixed. And so when students hear that as part of the proposition, they also get really excited about that. That's awesome. It's so interesting to me. I'm thinking to myself, we were actually talking a little bit before we got started, just this idea of how desperate most industries are for competent employees, right? And we got kind of a whole thing we could do on that. But obviously, our industry and anybody kind of listening to the show, they know they're suffering from some struggles and some frustrations with this.

48:42 But then one restoration company shows up when 150 regular contractors and different commercial entities show up. Why? What is it that we're missing? Is it that we don't think that those programs are there? Do we not connect the dots that general contracting is still pretty overlapped in terms of what we do? Why is it that one shows up versus the 149 other contractors that show up? Yeah. So I think maybe the industry as a whole just isn't as aware. You know, since we did that conference, we've received a hundred thousand dollar commitment from Blue Sky Restoration and they're now plugged in and coming to our events.

49:25 We got a hundred thousand dollar commitment from BMS and they're now coming to our career events. And so, you know, it is picking up, right? So now we're up to three, right? And growing, right? So I think, you know, we're going to continue to send that message because if we have a couple hundred students coming through the program every year, They're hearing the message from these other groups. And I just want to challenge the restoration industry as a whole to start reaching out to high school, start reaching out to junior colleges, start reaching out to the universities, reach out to the construction management programs, reach out to business students, marketing students. Right. Because I don't think there's there's not going to be this silver bullet to it.

50:07 I think it's just sharing with the industry like, hey, we just need as an industry, we need to be more intentional. About reaching out to young people, educating young people, because there is an exciting story to be told about the restoration industry. It's a great industry to get plugged into. And I think if more people just knew about it, it would help alleviate some of that pressure that a lot of these restoration contractors are feeling right now, which I think every industry is feeling it. So I have another theory on this because, you know, we've actually, Brandon and I, when we were operating the field, we reached out to various high school, like trades programs, universities, construction management programs. We actually have a really, really strong construction management program at Oregon State University, kind of in our backyard.

50:51 And here's the perception I ran into. Because I have a number of buddies who are in construction management too and work for big, you know, general contractors. And I think the perception amongst a lot of students that are getting their BA in construction management is that the real money... is working for these big half billion, billion dollar GCs right out of school. And like you said, like you experiencing your own construction program, these GCs are lined up to take these new grads and offer them a junior project management role or some kind of entry-level role, starting them at 60, 65,000 bucks. And there's just this perception among students that the real money, the real opportunity is with these big GC, corporate GCs.

51:35 And I think what's funny is we've gotten plugged more and more into our client relationships around the country is that we're able in the restoration industry to be very competitive. One of my buddies is a VP at a local GC that I work out with here. He talks to me about their compensation and how they pay. And they're a big $300 million GC. there's not much of a delta between what they're paying their estimators and project managers and the opportunity they're providing and what many of our $5 and $10 million family-run restoration companies are actively paying and offering their people. And in some cases, there's more of an open door in the restoration in these smaller companies to run the company or own it.

52:20 In relatively short order, I mean, we see some incredible like American dream kind of stories coming out of restoration where you go work for a $300 million GC, you got a long road before owning or leading that company. Whereas you go take a 65K PM or estimator job right out of school at a restoration company, you might have an opportunity to buy a portion of that or run the company in your first five years if you're awesome. Yeah. And you execute. So I'm just curious, have you seen that perception? Is that a perception that's starting to break down in your view? What do you think about that? Yeah, it absolutely is. And I think for us, looking back at this conference we had here in the fall, we had executives from Belfort, we had Aaron Bronco and his team, David and Greg.

53:09 We had, I mean, just executives from all over the country come in and they were talking about, they were sharing numbers with students. Hey, here's what you can make as an estimator. Here's what you can make as a project manager. Here's what... a career progression looks like. And that's what got them so excited because they realized that, hey, it's really not that different. And then they get excited about the nature of the work that restoration contractors do. And like you said, and in a lot of instances, the restoration industry, if you look at all the different niches in construction, is much bigger. And I think one of the things, this might be getting a little bit of sidetracked, but it does relate to what we're talking about here. So we are a unique construction school, right?

53:51 We're the School of Concrete and Construction Management, right? There's not many concrete industry programs. The concrete industry program here at MTSU was developed because industry saw a need. They needed more people in the pipeline. So about 20 years ago, the industry got together and started the first concrete industry management program here at MTSU, which is a very... I mean, that's a very niche program, right? There's only a handful across the country. So you have MTSU, there's one in Texas, there's one in New Jersey, South Dakota, Chico out in California. So there's a handful, right? The concrete industry, based on numbers that we saw this last year, is about $110 billion a year industry.

54:33 So you have about $70 billion a year that's concrete contracting and about another $40 billion that's ready mix, right? Right. So our new building that we're in right now is huge building, like $40 million building ballpark somewhere in there was funded in large by the state of Tennessee and then also from our concrete industry partners. So we're talking about $110 billion a year industry that helps start our program, help fund our new building, has helped start up other concrete industry programs across the country because the concrete industry realized, hey, We have a need for people. So we're going to help create our own pipeline. And because they created this pipeline, our graduates that have gone through our concrete industry management program for the last two decades are now company presidents, vice presidents, general managers, operations managers, entrepreneurs.

55:24 Right. And they're helping fill the need for the concrete industry. And now they're at a point where they raise $2 million a year for concrete programs and concrete projects. industry scholarships for students, right? So let's go back to this. So $110 billion a year, how big is the restoration industry? What, 220, 230? Yeah. So I mean, low estimates, you know, 180 billion, like low 200 billions, right? Depending on how you classify work, catastrophes, right? You have a huge cat event that could just throw the numbers way up there, right? So let's say it's like close to twice the size of the concrete industry. Yeah. Right. So I think it's time for the restoration industry to start thinking about how something like this can get formed.

56:12 Right. And again, that's why we want to bring, have an advisory board together. have advisory board members from the industry speaking into how are we going to develop the curriculum? How are we going to grow it? How are we going to spend the money on the scholarships? And, you know, because ultimately that's the vision is figuring out how can we have meaningful careers for young people and help fill this pipeline that's going to alleviate some of this need, because we really need to start working in earnest on the next generation of leaders for the restoration industry. In our concrete industry management program, They've really created the roadmap for it. Not that we would do everything identical. Yeah. But whoever comes in and sits on this advisory board with us is going to, you know, have direct access to them and say, hey, what are some of the things you guys have done?

56:56 How can we learn from it? Right. And then I think there's just so many valuable lessons we can draw from as we try to build this out for the restoration industry. It's interesting because it seems like whoever, right? There had to be a handful of personalities in that industry that just decided, well, I don't know what this is going to take, but I'm just going to be a voice that continues to seek input and start gathering information. right? Some influence. And it sounds like we're just looking for that handful of people in our industry to step in and say, we don't have it all figured out, but we got to start talking about this in a real loud manner. Because I think it's kind of like this idea is like when you start talking about these numbers, Chris alluded to this earlier, like 3 million bucks, You spread that over, let's say, the RIA members.

57:40 You're talking pennies in conjunction with what we do and the kind of financials that we're moving through our businesses. To put together $3 million directly from our industry doesn't seem that difficult in terms of context. The challenge is getting a handful of people to say it consistently enough and in front of the right group, right, to get some of that momentum and that steam built. Does it seem like this advisory group then becomes that? Is that that formation of that voice that can then start going back out to our industry peers and partners and start raising the flag of, hey, there's a real opportunity here for all of us? Is that what you're seeing? So that is a huge task for the advisory group as one. We want to have people that are plugged in industry who see the value of what we're doing and can help go out and help us make all of these apps.

58:28 Because, again, my goal or our goal is to have a million dollars raised by the end of this year. And another part of that, too, is, you know, my boss, the director of our school, is very supportive of what we're doing. And so it is great to have the support. And then the university is also, there's a lot that the university is going to put into this, right? So there's staffing that goes on with it, right? And so while we're asking for the $3 million that's going to go towards the faculty line and scholarships, There's also all the other stuff that goes on with it. So we need academic advisors. We need, again, that faculty line to come in from behind. We have something called the academic common market, right?

59:10 And so what that does is that allows us to offer in-state tuition to states that are part of an agreement that we have. Usually it's bordering states, but we do have states along the East Coast as well. And that allows us to charge out-of-state students in-state tuition. Right. So they're not because it is a unique degree program. Okay. And so by applying to do that. They're into, sorry, I totally cut you off. They're in that program then through a fellow sister university or education location. Yeah. A state. Yep. Okay. Got it. Okay. Yep. And then so through that, there's a difference in revenues. Obviously, there's more revenues when a university brings in out-of-state students, but that isn't an area where we would be willing to bypass that, that additional revenue.

59:57 Let's just charge in-state tuition for folks that want to major in this and aren't from Tennessee, and they can still get in-state tuition for it. That's super rad. Okay, so I think it comes down to, I have a habit of just getting super psyched about this kind of stuff. And then I want to jump all over it. But there's no doubt in my mind that as people are listening, they're like, okay, yes, I'm frustrated with the fact that I don't have much young blood coming into the pipeline. I'm hearing there's these things that we can contribute or participate in. I think one of the things that's becoming more and more common now too, and part of this, just to plug RIA, I think RIA and their advocacy board is really starting to change the shape of, hey, in unity, we can actually accomplish a whole bunch.

1:00:43 as an industry. And I think there's some momentum building behind these groups that are trying to unify our voice. Obviously, there's potential for that here. I'm assuming right now you are the go-to contact. So if we wanted to send people or if people are curious, learning more about what you're seeing and looking how they can participate, where are we sending people right now for that? Yeah, straight to me. Yeah, they can call myself, text me, email me. Yeah. So here's what we'll do. Because I don't want to necessarily... Well, I guess it probably doesn't matter, but I won't say it over the air. Why don't you... I'll follow up with you after the show. I'm going to gather some of that core information, contact information, and we'll put that in the notes of the show, both on our YouTube channel and on the actual podcast host itself.

1:01:33 And then folks, as they listen to the episode, just refer to the show notes and you should be able to see whatever version of contact method you want to reach out to Jake and start seeing what it is that you could potentially be doing to participate in this. And then in terms of Vince coming up, so are you guys going to have another one this year in fall or what was the timing on that? We are. So it'll be in November. Okay. And so a lot of that will be going through. We'll have some materials that go out. We'll have some announcements that go out. It's also going to go out through business networks, Les Cunningham, and through his group. And then I try to make it to events throughout the year. So I just spoke at the Elevate Conference in Salt Lake City.

1:02:13 Yeah. So I was there. I'm going to be at the experience in a couple of weeks out in Chattanooga. Okay. And so I'm trying to make it around as well and just to see groups and help spread this message. So I got a plug here, dude. Okay. So we have some friends over at a company called KnowHow. Have you heard of KnowHow yet? Yes. Okay. So Layton, he's their founder and CEO. You guys should have a discussion. Their company is very unique in the way that they're representing themselves in our industry, the way they're partnering with us. They are a data-driven company as a SaaS company in general. They do some really interesting things helping steward us from the perspective of collecting what they call, I think, state-of-the-industry information.

1:03:00 there's so much data that they gather. They're a really smart team. I can't imagine a world where the two of you could not find some synergy together in terms of their focus on the industry and what you're trying to accomplish on the student side. So I'm going to make that plug, Layton. I guess maybe sorry later if I wasn't supposed to do that. But I would talk to them, my friend. I think you guys have a lot of stuff in common. And then, guys, if you're listening to this show, this isn't... Here at HHB, we don't go out of our way to plug companies or entities. That's not really the point of the show, other than our paid sponsors, by the way. But in this particular scenario, this is the beginning.

1:03:40 This is the foundation moment where our voice can actually contribute in a real legacy way to begin talking to students and introducing them to an industry that... We're desperate for their talent. And we are part of a very unique opportunity if we're honest about it. Like this is one hell of an industry. You know, we... I won't use the F word in this particular situation, but we've gone as far as creating shirts that says it. Like we F and love this industry. And man, I think it would be so fun. to watch a whole new generation of young men and women be excited proactively and come seek us out versus accidentally getting sucked in and then never leaving like the most of us experience.

1:04:25 So man, take advantage of it. Reach out to Jake. And dude, we just really appreciate you coming and taking on this lift. This is really freaking awesome. Fun conversation, man. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Awesome, my man. Okay. Well, we'll be following up with you. I have a lot of confidence that we may be speaking again here in the next handful of months. Maybe get you back, get some updates on what's been happening, how the fundraising is going. And then I think there's a strong chance that our team and the Floodlight team may be participating soon. and some of that energy as well. So we're excited to follow up with you and see how we can help contribute to what's going on as well. So thanks again, my friend. Appreciate you. That'd be great. You guys are awesome. Thank you.

1:05:07 All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart, and Boots. And if you're enjoying the show, but you love this episode, please hit follow, formerly known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.